The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Christmas, another great old pagan celebration ;-)

    In which case it wouldn't be called Christmas, surely.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Just because Christians adopted it, doesn't make it less pagan all that exchange of
    Presents, decorating trees and feasting was going on for centuries before the Bible bashers
    Decided to celebrate it. Even the Romans celebrated it :-D
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    That's what I thought @Thunderpussy

    We in the 21st century though adapt it to Christianity, and not for any other reason, or in tandem with any other celebration.

    But at least it gives the non-believers (and I admit I'm one) the chance to dance, sing, drink and exchange gifts without the need for midnight mass.

    My wife isn't particularly religious, and only goes to church if there is no other option, but she was brought up catholic and loves Jesus as an historical figure based on his Biblical adventures. Now, I do take the whatsit now and then and tease her mercifully (usually quotes from Life Of Brian will do), but because she's my wife, and I love her, I will defend her right to believe in Jesus all day long. It harms no one.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Oh, I enjoy Christmas ( watched Goldfinger Christmas Day on itv for years ) I also enjoy
    Halloween ( another pagan festival, which many Christians aren't so hot in ) ..... At no point
    Do I feel the need to go to church as naturally, I don't steal or kill, I have no need of a "magic
    Book of rules " and the fear of punishment to stop me, other than my humanity. Oddly enough
    I also give to charity, try and Be a good neighbor. Even though I don't expect any future reward.
  • Posts: 15,125
    I'm all for believing in anything even without evidence as long as it harms no one and the believer does not try to proselytize or use said belief to push sectarian policies and laws in the public sphere. Then it becomes harmful. And it HAS become harmful even in our recent history.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    If it brings people peace, or comfort. Then it's totally understandable. But ..... It should not
    Give believers some extra power over the government of laws of a country.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited September 2017 Posts: 9,117
    NicNac wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I don't know why someone would create this thread in the first place if people would attack people's faith's I'm out of here since this thread as clearly misused it's purpose yes we have differences but we don't have to make fun of each other for what we believe in out of here until this thread changes or I may not come back at all

    Yes that's exactly what we have to do until religion recedes from public life and merely becomes something people can do if they really want to as long as its in the privacy of their own home and the rest of us don't have to hear anything about it.

    Unless you are into stamp collecting when was the last time you heard anything mentioned about stamp collecting on the news, in the paper etc etc? Never. People do it and that's fine if they get something out of it. Personally I don't have any interest in it and that's fine as well. Each to their own.

    The difference is you don't have the media, government and the law bending over backwards to force stamp collecting down everyone's throats.

    Well my wife hates football but she has to put up with it on the TV, in the news, on facebook and in the papers 24 hours a day. How does she tolerate something she hates so much? Well, she simply has to ignore it and concentrate on things she loves.

    What she doesn't do is go on a discussion forum and bang on about it.

    So, I would say, live and let live. No one has converted you to Christianity (what do you do at Christmas?) so no damage done. Happy days.

    Asinine comparison.

    Football doesn't have representatives in the House of Lords.

    Football doesn't enjoy protected status from criticism and exemption from tax.

    The law does not demand we respect football.

    Football doesn't cause wars (well once: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War) or terrorist acts.

    When there's a national catastrophe the news doesn't immediately get Gianni Infantino or Richard Scudamore on to spout their opinion.

    Football fans aren't permitted to have days off from work for matches or wear their shirts at work rather than office wear.

    Children don't have their genitals mutilated in the name of football.

    And on and on and on....

    There are thousands of things I have no interest in (Hip-hop, Mrs Brown's Boys, Marmite, any film starring Adam Sandler, cucumber, dressage, Dr Pepper, interior decorating to name a few) and like your good lady wife I ignore them and get on with my life.

    But you simply aren't allowed to ignore religion because we are forced to tolerate it whether we like it or not.

    The reason your wife has to put up with football on telly and in the paper all the time is due to capitalism not football. If religion brought in big enough paying crowds and got people paying sky subscriptions by the million then that would get blanket 24/7 coverage too but I'm happy to say that Super Sunday has nothing to do with God any more. Who would want to be sat at church praying and eating wafers when you could settle down with a pint and watch two matches back to back?

    Although mentioning football is an interesting comparison as football stadia are the new cathedrals and despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever deluded souls keep turning up every week believing one day their team will lead them to the promised land.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    For some reason Wiz, I can't but think of the Arsenal faithful...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    For some reason Wiz, I can't but think of the Arsenal faithful...

    True. The in 'Arsene we trust' brigade happily slurping down decades worth of Kool Aid and happily following Arsene 'Jim Jones' Wenger to their doom.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Christmas, another great old pagan celebration ;-)

    Or rather Yuletide as it was known in pagan times.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    A lot of religious rituals today have their origin in paganism.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    A lot of religious rituals today have their origin in paganism.

    And no-one would dispute that of course.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Never been one for rituals personally. Every group seems to have one for something.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    A lot of religious rituals today have their origin in paganism.

    The reason being religion came in and bastardised the local celebrations so that the new converts would take to it better.

    Hasn't even got the confidence in its own message to say 'take it or leave it' but has to try and get people to sign up by stealth.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited September 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Well, as the thread creator I am making my final bow in it with this post. I want to go out on this thread with a jovial note to show I have no hard feelings with any of the assembled atheists here. Just for fun (and to show that I have a sense of humour in these matters) I have included a link to this Pete Price prank call about choir boys which you might like (as it is very silly indeed):



    You probably need to hear this one too to fully get the 'joke':



    And another two for you:





    So, in other words, no more profound theological arguments from me. I have told one of the mods that I do want this thread to remain open as a space for members of all faiths and none to come and discuss matters concerning God, religion and faith if they so wish. I wish you all well, but I feel I must depart now. I've done my part in creating this thread and it being a relative success. You make it what it is. Please try to be respectful to each other's views and beliefs. That is my parting wish.

    May God bless each and every one of you.

    God does believe in atheists too, you know.

    That's all folks!
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    "Goodnight and may your God go with you "
    Famous closing line from the great Dave Allen.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I went to a 3D planetarium today and watched an amazing film about the universe. Billions of galaxies, billions of stars etc etc. When you put our planet into its true context, religion really does seem out of place. Why does God give a flying fig about our eating habits, our sexual habits etc etc on this tiny tiny scrap of rock in a tiny outpost of the universe. We become so involved in our day to day lives that we dont spend enough time considering how irrelevant we are within the universe. Religion does nothing to deal with the rest of the universe. Its all about humans and their relationship with God. Could it be that all the religions were created by men you were ignorant of all those billions of galaxies?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    007Blofeld wrote: »
    I don't know why someone would create this thread in the first place if people would attack people's faith's I'm out of here since this thread as clearly misused it's purpose yes we have differences but we don't have to make fun of each other for what we believe in out of here until this thread changes or I may not come back at all

    Yes that's exactly what we have to do until religion recedes from public life and merely becomes something people can do if they really want to as long as its in the privacy of their own home and the rest of us don't have to hear anything about it.

    Unless you are into stamp collecting when was the last time you heard anything mentioned about stamp collecting on the news, in the paper etc etc? Never. People do it and that's fine if they get something out of it. Personally I don't have any interest in it and that's fine as well. Each to their own.

    The difference is you don't have the media, government and the law bending over backwards to force stamp collecting down everyone's throats.

    Well my wife hates football but she has to put up with it on the TV, in the news, on facebook and in the papers 24 hours a day. How does she tolerate something she hates so much? Well, she simply has to ignore it and concentrate on things she loves.

    What she doesn't do is go on a discussion forum and bang on about it.

    So, I would say, live and let live. No one has converted you to Christianity (what do you do at Christmas?) so no damage done. Happy days.

    Asinine comparison.

    Football doesn't have representatives in the House of Lords.

    Football doesn't enjoy protected status from criticism and exemption from tax.

    The law does not demand we respect football.

    Football doesn't cause wars (well once: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War) or terrorist acts.

    When there's a national catastrophe the news doesn't immediately get Gianni Infantino or Richard Scudamore on to spout their opinion.

    Football fans aren't permitted to have days off from work for matches or wear their shirts at work rather than office wear.

    Children don't have their genitals mutilated in the name of football.

    And on and on and on....

    There are thousands of things I have no interest in (Hip-hop, Mrs Brown's Boys, Marmite, any film starring Adam Sandler, cucumber, dressage, Dr Pepper, interior decorating to name a few) and like your good lady wife I ignore them and get on with my life.

    But you simply aren't allowed to ignore religion because we are forced to tolerate it whether we like it or not.

    The reason your wife has to put up with football on telly and in the paper all the time is due to capitalism not football. If religion brought in big enough paying crowds and got people paying sky subscriptions by the million then that would get blanket 24/7 coverage too but I'm happy to say that Super Sunday has nothing to do with God any more. Who would want to be sat at church praying and eating wafers when you could settle down with a pint and watch two matches back to back?

    Although mentioning football is an interesting comparison as football stadia are the new cathedrals and despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever deluded souls keep turning up every week believing one day their team will lead them to the promised land.

    Well, I was only really responding to the point you made about being force fed religion. I don't happen to feel anyone force feeds me religion, anymore than football or stamp collecting.

    I have no belief, yet I agreed to marry in a church, I agreed to have my children baptised into the catholic faith and I agreed to be a godfather to a friend's child (in church) because it meant something to the other people involved.

    No skin off my nose, there was always a buffet at the end of it.

    There is nothing anyone can do about it, and once you include world religions in your tirades (child mutilation etc) then you may as well find the nearest brick wall and firmly bang your head against it, because nothing will change in your or my lifetime.

    I will ask though Wiz, I don't know your situation, but if you were to marry and your intended wanted a church wedding, would you go along with it? Also, would you have your children baptised if it really meant something to your wife and her lovely family?

    No catch here, but that was my situation. I was happy to respect them because it was their bag.

    My children are now older and they have no belief and no interest in religion. Their choice.
  • Posts: 15,125
    @NicNac I know the question is not aimed at me but I will answer it: both my wife and I are atheists but we got married in church, at a C of E ceremony. For a few reasons one of them is that being a foreigner had we decided to be married in a civil ceremony I would have had to get a certificate of approval which costs money and time. Not sure if it's the case now but at the time you could only bypass this by getting married in a C of E ceremony at it is/was a constitutional privilege (read: one of the many freebies the Church receives for her incestuous reports with the State). Now I disapprove of these privileges but I was paying enough money to the UK gov as it was. It was in a 13th century church and overall we had a lovely ceremony and the priest was a decent chap. But that my wife was unbaptized and me a (former) Catholic heathen did not go down well with some old man who was taking care of the church and he made sure the place was locked once we were out... leaving the flower arrangement in. As for baptizing my son, that's a resounding no. When he grows up he can be baptized in the faith he wants but I will NOT have him be forced into a faith. And any priest is better keep away from him and keep his hands when I can see them.

    As for religion being forced fed you must know that compulsory assembly worship is STILL required in state schools in England, which STILL has a state religion. So when my son is old enough to go to school a vicar will tell him there that God created the world, will invite him to pray to Lord Jesus, etc. I call that force feeding religion on him. And that makes my blood boil.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Good point about schools Ludovico. My kids went to Catholic school and indeed were dragged to certain ceremonies I can't recall the names of.

    Yes, it does play a part in some kids upbringing, but not enough to give them a crap childhood, hopefully. As I say, it is a very good point though.

    Glad that the C of E got you out of a personal hole though ;).

    For me, the best thing about Christianity is that we have some amazing architecture, and beautiful buildings.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    @NicNac "because nothing will change in your or my lifetime."

    A pretty selfish perspective IMHO. Just because you cant change something within the next 30 or 40 years does not mean that you should not try. History is full of examples where people died before they had the chance to see the change that they contributed to.

    Plus, actually, the change is happening very quickly with atheism becoming not only more acceptable (it used to be a taboo) but increasingly popular. This thread is proof of that.

    "Yes, it does play a part in some kids upbringing, but not enough to give them a crap childhood,"

    I think kids that were sexually abused at Catholic schools may differ in that opinion. Its too important an issue to shrug off. And new examples are coming up all the time, this artical one month old:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/18/boys-abused-germany-catholic-regensburger-domspatzen-school

    @Ludovico in the UK you have the right to pull kids out of religious assembly. Its not practical for me to do this all the time but I do so on certain occasions just to remind the schools that some of their parents know they at preaching fairy tales (I suspect some of the teachers agree with me) I do wonder how many atheist teachers work at religious schools.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    patb wrote: »
    I do wonder how many atheist teachers work at religious schools.

    Quite a few I bet. There are even atheist priests out there. It is just a job for them.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Interesting moral dilemma. It's one thing to brain wash kids with stuff you think is true. But to brain wash kids with stuff you dont believe in? wow!
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Happy to concede to all these points @patb as I did with @Ludovico . I'm never one to argue for the sake of it.

    Already said my wife's 'hero' has always been Jesus, but she isn't particularly religious as such, and has no opinion on whether he existed or not, she just likes the idea of the man and his teachings.

    She is the first to point out the irony of 1) The obscene wealth of the Catholic church 2) The outdated views of the church on women priests and allowing priests to marry 3) the child abuse scandals within the church 4) The lack of compassion towards fellow man.

    The abuse of children is a problem which has never gone away, ever. And never will as long as there are people (not just priests) who have that sexual preference, which is what it is. I will back any fight to expose paedophiles, any day of the week.

    As for changing things, no I can't see it happening, and certainly not by posting in a James Bond forum. If you guys want to march on Parliament or something off you go. Like I say, no skin off my nose.

    But, worldwide religion is still very strong, and won't be going anywhere in the near future.

    I don't mean to sound selfish about it, but there are plenty of terrible things in the world, and I'm more concerned about school bullying, the integration of disabled people in to society, amongst other things, which are closer to home for me personally.

    We can't cure all of the world's ills.


  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    We live in a complex World where topics overlap. I'm not sure that you can compartmentlise issues and then prioritise them For example, there are plenty of examples where relgion and disability over lap and, often, the results are not good.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-33523742

    There are common themes as many of these issues can be solved by education. The more educated, thoughful and enlightened people are, the less likley they are to bully, believe in fairy tales or isolate disabled people. (the same could be said of Gay rights or gender equlity)

    So perhaps one of THE most terrible things in the World is ignorance?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    I don't know about you @patb but when I was at school teachers were paid to teach.
    Nowadays teachers are social workers, nurses, psychologists and mothers. Because they need to be.
    There is a generation of young people who have grown up ill equipped to be parents, and the onus falls on teachers.

    Children who are mentally and physically abused, children who go to school barely potty trained, unable to zip their coat up, unable to speak properly (and I'm not talking about kids from foreign families).
    It's a huge topic about where society has gone wrong, but I would hesitate to blame any of that on religious teachings in school.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The Pope just called "climate deniers" idiots, and encouraged them to "look to science".
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 4,617
    “If someone is doubtful that [climate change] is true, they should ask scientists,"

    “If someone is doubtful that evulution is true, they should ask scientists,"

    “If someone is doubtful that religion is true, they should ask scientists,"

    Yes, please, ask the scientists (and not God) anything, they do have the answers.

    A truely incredible irony that the Pope seeks to rely on science to support his arguments.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Careful who you trust in. One minute those scientists tell you the Earth is flat, the next minute they change their minds.

    You don't know where you are with them.
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