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In which case it wouldn't be called Christmas, surely.
Presents, decorating trees and feasting was going on for centuries before the Bible bashers
Decided to celebrate it. Even the Romans celebrated it :-D
We in the 21st century though adapt it to Christianity, and not for any other reason, or in tandem with any other celebration.
But at least it gives the non-believers (and I admit I'm one) the chance to dance, sing, drink and exchange gifts without the need for midnight mass.
My wife isn't particularly religious, and only goes to church if there is no other option, but she was brought up catholic and loves Jesus as an historical figure based on his Biblical adventures. Now, I do take the whatsit now and then and tease her mercifully (usually quotes from Life Of Brian will do), but because she's my wife, and I love her, I will defend her right to believe in Jesus all day long. It harms no one.
Halloween ( another pagan festival, which many Christians aren't so hot in ) ..... At no point
Do I feel the need to go to church as naturally, I don't steal or kill, I have no need of a "magic
Book of rules " and the fear of punishment to stop me, other than my humanity. Oddly enough
I also give to charity, try and Be a good neighbor. Even though I don't expect any future reward.
Give believers some extra power over the government of laws of a country.
Asinine comparison.
Football doesn't have representatives in the House of Lords.
Football doesn't enjoy protected status from criticism and exemption from tax.
The law does not demand we respect football.
Football doesn't cause wars (well once: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War) or terrorist acts.
When there's a national catastrophe the news doesn't immediately get Gianni Infantino or Richard Scudamore on to spout their opinion.
Football fans aren't permitted to have days off from work for matches or wear their shirts at work rather than office wear.
Children don't have their genitals mutilated in the name of football.
And on and on and on....
There are thousands of things I have no interest in (Hip-hop, Mrs Brown's Boys, Marmite, any film starring Adam Sandler, cucumber, dressage, Dr Pepper, interior decorating to name a few) and like your good lady wife I ignore them and get on with my life.
But you simply aren't allowed to ignore religion because we are forced to tolerate it whether we like it or not.
The reason your wife has to put up with football on telly and in the paper all the time is due to capitalism not football. If religion brought in big enough paying crowds and got people paying sky subscriptions by the million then that would get blanket 24/7 coverage too but I'm happy to say that Super Sunday has nothing to do with God any more. Who would want to be sat at church praying and eating wafers when you could settle down with a pint and watch two matches back to back?
Although mentioning football is an interesting comparison as football stadia are the new cathedrals and despite the lack of any evidence whatsoever deluded souls keep turning up every week believing one day their team will lead them to the promised land.
True. The in 'Arsene we trust' brigade happily slurping down decades worth of Kool Aid and happily following Arsene 'Jim Jones' Wenger to their doom.
Or rather Yuletide as it was known in pagan times.
amd many more :-D
And no-one would dispute that of course.
The reason being religion came in and bastardised the local celebrations so that the new converts would take to it better.
Hasn't even got the confidence in its own message to say 'take it or leave it' but has to try and get people to sign up by stealth.
You probably need to hear this one too to fully get the 'joke':
And another two for you:
So, in other words, no more profound theological arguments from me. I have told one of the mods that I do want this thread to remain open as a space for members of all faiths and none to come and discuss matters concerning God, religion and faith if they so wish. I wish you all well, but I feel I must depart now. I've done my part in creating this thread and it being a relative success. You make it what it is. Please try to be respectful to each other's views and beliefs. That is my parting wish.
May God bless each and every one of you.
God does believe in atheists too, you know.
That's all folks!
Famous closing line from the great Dave Allen.
Well, I was only really responding to the point you made about being force fed religion. I don't happen to feel anyone force feeds me religion, anymore than football or stamp collecting.
I have no belief, yet I agreed to marry in a church, I agreed to have my children baptised into the catholic faith and I agreed to be a godfather to a friend's child (in church) because it meant something to the other people involved.
No skin off my nose, there was always a buffet at the end of it.
There is nothing anyone can do about it, and once you include world religions in your tirades (child mutilation etc) then you may as well find the nearest brick wall and firmly bang your head against it, because nothing will change in your or my lifetime.
I will ask though Wiz, I don't know your situation, but if you were to marry and your intended wanted a church wedding, would you go along with it? Also, would you have your children baptised if it really meant something to your wife and her lovely family?
No catch here, but that was my situation. I was happy to respect them because it was their bag.
My children are now older and they have no belief and no interest in religion. Their choice.
As for religion being forced fed you must know that compulsory assembly worship is STILL required in state schools in England, which STILL has a state religion. So when my son is old enough to go to school a vicar will tell him there that God created the world, will invite him to pray to Lord Jesus, etc. I call that force feeding religion on him. And that makes my blood boil.
Yes, it does play a part in some kids upbringing, but not enough to give them a crap childhood, hopefully. As I say, it is a very good point though.
Glad that the C of E got you out of a personal hole though ;).
For me, the best thing about Christianity is that we have some amazing architecture, and beautiful buildings.
A pretty selfish perspective IMHO. Just because you cant change something within the next 30 or 40 years does not mean that you should not try. History is full of examples where people died before they had the chance to see the change that they contributed to.
Plus, actually, the change is happening very quickly with atheism becoming not only more acceptable (it used to be a taboo) but increasingly popular. This thread is proof of that.
"Yes, it does play a part in some kids upbringing, but not enough to give them a crap childhood,"
I think kids that were sexually abused at Catholic schools may differ in that opinion. Its too important an issue to shrug off. And new examples are coming up all the time, this artical one month old:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/18/boys-abused-germany-catholic-regensburger-domspatzen-school
@Ludovico in the UK you have the right to pull kids out of religious assembly. Its not practical for me to do this all the time but I do so on certain occasions just to remind the schools that some of their parents know they at preaching fairy tales (I suspect some of the teachers agree with me) I do wonder how many atheist teachers work at religious schools.
Quite a few I bet. There are even atheist priests out there. It is just a job for them.
Already said my wife's 'hero' has always been Jesus, but she isn't particularly religious as such, and has no opinion on whether he existed or not, she just likes the idea of the man and his teachings.
She is the first to point out the irony of 1) The obscene wealth of the Catholic church 2) The outdated views of the church on women priests and allowing priests to marry 3) the child abuse scandals within the church 4) The lack of compassion towards fellow man.
The abuse of children is a problem which has never gone away, ever. And never will as long as there are people (not just priests) who have that sexual preference, which is what it is. I will back any fight to expose paedophiles, any day of the week.
As for changing things, no I can't see it happening, and certainly not by posting in a James Bond forum. If you guys want to march on Parliament or something off you go. Like I say, no skin off my nose.
But, worldwide religion is still very strong, and won't be going anywhere in the near future.
I don't mean to sound selfish about it, but there are plenty of terrible things in the world, and I'm more concerned about school bullying, the integration of disabled people in to society, amongst other things, which are closer to home for me personally.
We can't cure all of the world's ills.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-33523742
There are common themes as many of these issues can be solved by education. The more educated, thoughful and enlightened people are, the less likley they are to bully, believe in fairy tales or isolate disabled people. (the same could be said of Gay rights or gender equlity)
So perhaps one of THE most terrible things in the World is ignorance?
Nowadays teachers are social workers, nurses, psychologists and mothers. Because they need to be.
There is a generation of young people who have grown up ill equipped to be parents, and the onus falls on teachers.
Children who are mentally and physically abused, children who go to school barely potty trained, unable to zip their coat up, unable to speak properly (and I'm not talking about kids from foreign families).
It's a huge topic about where society has gone wrong, but I would hesitate to blame any of that on religious teachings in school.
“If someone is doubtful that evulution is true, they should ask scientists,"
“If someone is doubtful that religion is true, they should ask scientists,"
Yes, please, ask the scientists (and not God) anything, they do have the answers.
A truely incredible irony that the Pope seeks to rely on science to support his arguments.
You don't know where you are with them.