The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited November 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Liberalism and Christianity aren't really natural bedfellows anyhow, at least to my mind. Conservatism would be much more of a match, in fact.

    That would depend. I'd say at least some of the teaching of Jesus has borderline socialist implications. He seemed to be a radical egalitarian, in fact. Even early Christian and monastic communities had collectivist economies.

    @TheWizardOfIce Painful isn't it? Imagine him PM. And the worst thing is, we now have a petty church lady instead.

    Yes, that's true of course. The disciples could be seen as practicing an early form of socialism.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited November 2017 Posts: 24,186
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Christ.

    How is it possible that someone with such a preposterous grasp of logic can be elected to public office?

    I'm even embarrassed for him for that imbecilic statement.

    Go off and get a job presenting Songs of Praise mate because your 15 mins is long overdue.

    Exactly.

    Putting such people in any position of authority means giving them a mandate to fold their hands, have five minutes of transcendental whatever, and base their next decisions, which could influence the lives of hundreds or even millions, on a confluence of vague, irrational thoughts or shadows thereof, lacking reason and pragmatic substance. But hey, who are we to judge? Americans still want their next president to say, "God bless America!" which to any sane person reads as, "Middle-Ages, here we come again!"

    How longer do we have to wait before 'faith' is regarded as the mental illness it clearly is and you are declared unfit for public office?

    Exactly. The "we demand respect for our beliefs" thing has by now definitely overstayed its welcome.

    Many things people do, say or think have been established as criminal offences because of the threat they might pose. Holocaust denial and blunt forms of sexism and racism are clear examples. In fact, nowadays it doesn't matter how intelligent, powerful or 'useful' you are, if you look at a woman's cleavage or drop the N-word for whatever reason, you're out and several law suits come your way. Didn't you get the memo? You are so clearly a danger to society, sir.

    However, when you absolutely and unconditionally follow the Bible as a rule book for literally everything, including sociological, political, ethical, moral, historical and scientific issues, you can still function as the CEO of a large company, the governor of an American state, a military leader and even a president. The N-word puts you in prison but loudly proclaiming that the word of god is where the truth is at, doesn't? I'm confused, for whenever I open the Bible, which for the sake of amusement I occasionally do, I read some of the most horrific examples of child abuse, racist slur and the total denial of women as equal to men.

    Say I were to walk into my school, proudly stating that Hitler's Mein Kampf is the best book I've ever read and I shall henceforth use it to strengthen my political convictions and morally guide me through life, I bet that my teaching days are over and I might even be thrown in jail. But if I quote from the Bible left and right, no matter how insulting, humiliating, dangerous its subtext, I can just get away with it and probably get some praise from certain people too. Worse still, if I told my students that god was whispering in my ears last night and he told me to denounce science in favour of some creationist crap, I might even get away with it on account of my precious religious freedoms and whatnot.

    Lastly, people seem to think that only direct deeds pose a threat. Because someone thinks a certain way, that doesn't make that person dangerous as long as it's only thoughts and nothing else, right? If citizen X does some weird jesus stuff in his backyard and teaches his children the ways of the Bible, but otherwise pays his taxes, goes to work everyday and brakes for stray dogs, he's okay, isn't he? Harmless, kind. And his beliefs are his, no? Private thoughts and all that? Well, maybe. Or maybe not. Because what if little Jimmy or little Jamal takes his dad's teachings just one step further and decides to speed things up a little by sending all infidels to hell right now instead of after they have died of natural causes? Hey, whatever someone thinks is their own business, right? Besides, we have more important matters to address, like not staring down a woman's cleavage or like publishing censored editions of Live And Let Die... Those two things really are going to make the world a better place, didn't you know?
  • Posts: 7,653
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Christ.

    How is it possible that someone with such a preposterous grasp of logic can be elected to public office?

    I'm even embarrassed for him for that imbecilic statement.

    Go off and get a job presenting Songs of Praise mate because your 15 mins is long overdue.

    Exactly.

    Putting such people in any position of authority means giving them a mandate to fold their hands, have five minutes of transcendental whatever, and base their next decisions, which could influence the lives of hundreds or even millions, on a confluence of vague, irrational thoughts or shadows thereof, lacking reason and pragmatic substance. But hey, who are we to judge? Americans still want their next president to say, "God bless America!" which to any sane person reads as, "Middle-Ages, here we come again!"

    How longer do we have to wait before 'faith' is regarded as the mental illness it clearly is and you are declared unfit for public office?

    Not quite sure the current incumbent of the White House is religious, he uses it as he sees fit, I would probably prefer a president who had a moral moral guidebook by his religion that the religion of me and how to make more money.
  • Posts: 15,125
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Christ.

    How is it possible that someone with such a preposterous grasp of logic can be elected to public office?

    I'm even embarrassed for him for that imbecilic statement.

    Go off and get a job presenting Songs of Praise mate because your 15 mins is long overdue.

    Exactly.

    Putting such people in any position of authority means giving them a mandate to fold their hands, have five minutes of transcendental whatever, and base their next decisions, which could influence the lives of hundreds or even millions, on a confluence of vague, irrational thoughts or shadows thereof, lacking reason and pragmatic substance. But hey, who are we to judge? Americans still want their next president to say, "God bless America!" which to any sane person reads as, "Middle-Ages, here we come again!"

    How longer do we have to wait before 'faith' is regarded as the mental illness it clearly is and you are declared unfit for public office?

    Then you might as well turn the whole Parliament into an insane asylum. Oh I see...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    It would be ridiculous to claim that capitalism is a force for good, but at least, if nothing else, there's some level of rationality and predictability to it which religion is entirely missing. In that sense, the evils of capitalism can be assessed and understood if not obliterated. Furthermore, one might be surprised how closely connected evil capitalism and several religious institutes really are. The Catholic Church, for example, is a gruesomely rich type of Mafia that has for many centuries been vegetating on intellectual blindness and irrational fears, on simple and unfalsifiable truths. While corrupting millions of minds, it has shaken the starving and the poor for that last penny that could have put food on the table; but a one-way ticket to heaven seemed better at the time. With that dirty money, it has built for itself some of the most decadently beautiful palaces and stuffed them with treasures that could have fed and educated all those poor souls.

    Trump is merely another pope, in a different brand of "religion" perhaps, but he too was elected on false promises and simple truths, by those who either feared the alternative or actually fell for the lies.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Trump appears to think that climate change was invented by China, so I'd bet my life that he also thinks there's an all powerful sky god. Patterns start to form and when a lack of education and critical analysis rears its head, it's easy to see where that cancer of ignorance could be spreading next.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Trump appears to think that climate change was invented by China, so I'd bet my life that he also thinks there's an all powerful sky god. Patterns start to form and when a lack of education and critical analysis rears its head, it's easy to see where that cancer of ignorance could be spreading next.

    Amusing when the likes of Farron sneer at Trump for his ignorant tweets and proclamations but are happy to say they think a magic guy with a beard sitting on a cloud is running things.

    Why is the idea that builiding a wall on the Mexican border will make America great again any more or less insane than thinking praying is the solution to any problem?
  • Posts: 15,125
    There's a religious right and there's a religious left. Tim Farron is the living proof of the latter. The worst part of his drivel is when he talks of secularism. Stupid to the point of being infuriating.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Ludovico, I'm not familiar with Farron beyond his brief mention in this thread, but what are his thoughts on secularism? Is he one of those Christian centric types who thinks that a lack of religious teaching makes us animals or something, and that the bible is vital in attaining proper morality? That God's way is the only one?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Well he basically said there's no commom secular value. Apparently liberalism was invented by Christianity.

    Tim Farron was the leader of a left leaning party. He says he's a moderate social democrat. Yet he abstained from voting for same sex marriage at the last vote on it and refused to say if as a Christian he considered homosexuality a sin. He was a hypocrite and betrayed the values he claimed to defend and was called on it and since then he's been whining about it.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Ludovico, I see. Well you'd think that the real value of secularism and any thought like it is the rationality and common sense that comes out of working outside of a religious sphere where you're free to think without the constraints of an ancient text constantly dogging you. But Farron is clearly a fan of church and state considering his voting on particular bills seems to reflect his desire to keep God as an ever-present part of governmental rulings to dictate what lives the populace can lead.

    I've seen that secularists and atheists get a similar beef from the religious (they are connected by a shared aim, of course) because the thought of some Christians is that they/we don't believe in anything if we don't 100% believe in God or that the churches of the world should have unwieldy powers to enforce their outdated viewpoints on their citizenry. I dare say that our sort have more to believe in and also more to live for, not only because we believe in what is real, but also because our acceptance that life is short and precious (and that there's no afterlife/heaven waiting for us) allows us to lucidly live cherishing each moment and doing so at our fullest capacity.

    As for Farron voting for a conservative position while wearing a lib's skin, we have some of the same things happening in the states in more colorful ways. I couldn't count the number of congressmen I've heard about in the news who voted against gay marriage for their religious and party ties in the past, only for it to later be revealed that while they were rallying against the LGBT community they themselves were having gay affairs with men on the down low. It's dickish enough to excuse your lack of concern for human rights by leaning on your faith, but all the more ridiculous when you yourself are voting against the rights you should have as a gay man. Talk about denial and self-loathing!
  • Posts: 15,125
    What is infuriating about Tim Farron is that he basically behaved like a Trojan Horse: he could have chosen the humanist way, but when it counted he backed off and went religious.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What is infuriating about Tim Farron is that he basically behaved like a Trojan Horse: he could have chosen the humanist way, but when it counted he backed off and went religious.

    He backed the wrong horse, in your view.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What is infuriating about Tim Farron is that he basically behaved like a Trojan Horse: he could have chosen the humanist way, but when it counted he backed off and went religious.

    He backed the wrong horse, in your view.

    He backed the wrong horse claiming he backed the right one and had backed it up all along. We're not talking about a conservative caught in a gay bar saying he's there for the music. We're talking of a social religious conservative claiming he's a social-democrat.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What is infuriating about Tim Farron is that he basically behaved like a Trojan Horse: he could have chosen the humanist way, but when it counted he backed off and went religious.

    He backed the wrong horse, in your view.

    He backed the wrong horse claiming he backed the right one and had backed it up all along. We're not talking about a conservative caught in a gay bar saying he's there for the music. We're talking of a social religious conservative claiming he's a social-democrat.

    He was a typical wishy-washy liberal then jumping from one bandwagon to the next to roll into town.
  • Posts: 15,125
    If only he had at least dared to jump on the bandwagon! His voting record says otherwise.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So he is more impressed with this world than another world.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    So he is more impressed with this world than another world.

    Hitch shared my view of the world, and I'm sure the view of many atheists (I know @DarthDimi would agree, for instance). Basically that the world we have is already full of infinite wonder and awe-inspiring processes and aspects that are natural and, more importantly, tangible. When one can fathom the power of a black hole and what lies beyond the black pit at its core, the need for disproven man-made texts of ancient origin is nil.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117

    Awe inspiring stuff indeed. Almost brings a tear to your eye.

    One of the best proofs for the existence of God I can actually think of is Hitch getting cancer. He truly was God's nemesis and the only way the petty guy could fight back was like any dictator does - forcibly silencing his critics by killing them. I think I might have just convinced myself God exists!!!

    Also I had to chuckle at the beardy God botherer sat next to Hitch thinking 'Jesus Christ how am I going to follow this? Please God help me' and just getting to silence in return as God had no arguments to block the welter of blows from the master.

    Sublime stuff.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Hitch's books and Youtube clips will be with us forever. Such a wonderful legacy for our children to enjoy and think about. More thought, evidence and intellect in "God is Not Great" than all of the religious scripts combined.

    I have his books to hand near the front door and offer a swap/lend for any religious loon who comes to my front door, peddling their fairy tales. The offer has never been taken up.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @TheWizardOfIce, knowing Hitch, I'm sure he'd chuckle at your statement and I've thought the same thing many times in a darkly humorous way. He was a real enemy of the faith, and an overlord if one did exist, so his diagnosis would be God's middle finger from the universe to him.

    It's really hard for me to watch videos from when Hitch started to get really sick, and nearly tear up every time I see his latest public appearance where he enviously celebrated the wonders of the world that we'd all get to see advance or be discovered without him, but more can be said about him and how he handled his terminal condition than even any of his well constructed and eloquent diatribes about faith could.



    Only someone with the reality and good humor (and also the incredible humbleness in his humanity) of Hitch could sit, stricken with cancer, and say, "I'm dying...But so are you!" We're a dimmer, less educated global society without him around but in some ways I'm relieved he didn't have to see some of the things that've transpired since his passing. He couldn't stand the Clintons so he would've been livid beyond belief about Hillary's continued attempts to get the presidential throne in 2015 and 2016 as if it was owed to her, and I'm sure he'd have been gobsmacked with intellectual bemusement in an effort to explain how a Trump presidency could actually happen. The cynicism and misanthropy that would've hit him would make me sad, but I'd still rather have him face that then him be gone.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Really powerful stuff.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Considering we're officially in the holiday season, I thought this would be a great place to post this stocking stuffer for the religious disciple in your life or any atheist you know with a sense of humor:
    our-grate-lord1.jpg?resize=800%2C800

    https://www.amazon.com/Paladone-PP0562-Cheesus-Christ-Grater/dp/B00913KLVA

    In the future I think it'd make for a fun gag gift for my atheist best friend.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    This thread of mine is becoming rather cheesy, wouldn't you say?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    This thread of mine is becoming rather cheesy, wouldn't you say?

    Yes, it can sometimes be grating on the nerves.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    This thread of mine is becoming rather cheesy, wouldn't you say?

    Yes, it can sometimes be grating on the nerves.

    It's my worst thread I think, but strangely one of my most successful in terms of views and posts. That, and the ghost thread. Both are non-Bond threads so maybe I should branch out more in future?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    It is, indeed, an interesting thread and despite all conflicting opinions a decent one. Proves we're not the negative bunch some have called us in the past. ;-)
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2017 Posts: 18,281
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    It is, indeed, an interesting thread and despite all conflicting opinions a decent one. Proves we're not the negative bunch some have called us in the past. ;-)

    Well I did believe that, on both sides of the debate, we could at least be civilised. It was a gamble worth taking, in my view.
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