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  • Posts: 7,653
    That said the bible does borrow plenty of older tales that were around before the story of Christ and got adapted into the Adventures of God and the Sequel with the Son of God.

    I once read a book on the subject and was very surprised to find how the book of Christianity did borrow from older an sometimes forgotten religions from our history. We know that since Christianity came into play they changed most holidays we celebrate as christian heritage into their version while they are at the basis still rather pagan.

    The Bible is in interesting document as are the Tora and the Islamitic scrolls describing their faith. They all did continue on an older foundation that was there before their religion came into bloom.

    I find it rather fascinating this tells us a lot about the history of mankind something the average Atheist glosses over in his effort to find the truth and only the truth.

    Scully & Mulder are still looking out there for the truth.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the earlier points about science I read an interesting letter about 'The Disestablishment of Science' in Encounter magazine. It was from the 60s though.

    I don't want to be pushy but we're still waiting for the archeological evidence proving at least some of the claims of the Bible.

    I'll certainly try my best on that front too. I've not forgotten about it but I suppose at this point in the proceedings nothing that I bring to bear here will convince any of you of the existence of God and Creationism and the Bible being true. I can but try but I can't help thinking that all of your minds were made up many years ago!

    Very defeatist of you. Especially considering you are in possession of the absolute truth. As Ludovico says if you can just present some credible evidence you'll go down in history. I have my doubts as if nobody has managed to do it in 2000 years I hardly think, with the greatest of respect dearest Draggers, that a bloke who thinks NSF is a good book is likely to shatter all our perceptions with his 'revelations'. There again Jesus was just a carpenter (although have to say I can't remember him ever making anything. Did he just put that down to bump up his CV a bit as 'bum with no fixed income who wanders the countryside trying to talk people into believing in God' isn't going to get you an interview) so maybe you are going to wow us all?

    And to be fair if you can just rustle me up a snake that can say 'sausages' I'll sign up tomorrow.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    I find it rather fascinating this tells us a lot about the history of mankind something the average Atheist glosses over in his effort to find the truth and only the truth.

    That's an entirely different argument.

    The Bible, Torah, Quran, Baghavad Gita are indeed fascinating documents in terms of the history of mankind, the psychological herd mentality need for religion and the evolution of various interlinking tribes in the Middle East and Indian subcontinent regions.

    But please don't confuse this with the notion that they might be factually true.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the earlier points about science I read an interesting letter about 'The Disestablishment of Science' in Encounter magazine. It was from the 60s though.

    I don't want to be pushy but we're still waiting for the archeological evidence proving at least some of the claims of the Bible.

    I'll certainly try my best on that front too. I've not forgotten about it but I suppose at this pint in the proceedings nothing that I bring to bear here will convince ant of you of the existence of God and Creationism and the Bible being true. I can but try but I can't help thinking that all of your minds were made up many years ago!

    Actually I have to correct you: all I need to be convinced and change my mind is sufficient evidence. I consider the Bible wrong on almost everything factually because 1)nobody ever gave evidence of any of its claims and 2)we actually have evidence that contradict these claims. The Flood, the Exodus, the Tower of Babel. But if you can back it up then bring it on.

    Then if you can convince me I'd encourage you to get a Nobel price in something because you would have radically changed our knowledge of history, medicine, physics, heck even geography.

    That sounds a tall order, but I won't flinch from my responsibilities either. It's not in my nature to do so.

    You'll understand then if I take a while in preparing my case for the Defence in R v God [2018]?

    --David Dragonpol QC.

    Well it's not a tall order if you do what you say you can do i.e. provide the evidence. Because it would change completely our perception of the world.

    @TheWizardOfIce I actually think that even if the resurrection of Jesus was a proven fact, as well as his birth by Parthenogenesis (not completely scientifically impossible actually), that would not be proof of God, only that Jesus did indeed resurrect, was born from a Virgin, etc. What I mean is that even if one of the Biblical claims is proven, whatever it is, even the most extraordinary one, it would say nothing about every other claim. So if our common friend proves that a snake can talk, which would be in itself an achievement... Then that would say nothing of the rest. And even if God was proven to be real, I would not think worshiping him is justified.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    On the talking snakes thing, if we accept God created snakes, why couldn't he make one talk? He is God after all.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the earlier points about science I read an interesting letter about 'The Disestablishment of Science' in Encounter magazine. It was from the 60s though.

    I don't want to be pushy but we're still waiting for the archeological evidence proving at least some of the claims of the Bible.

    I'll certainly try my best on that front too. I've not forgotten about it but I suppose at this pint in the proceedings nothing that I bring to bear here will convince ant of you of the existence of God and Creationism and the Bible being true. I can but try but I can't help thinking that all of your minds were made up many years ago!

    Actually I have to correct you: all I need to be convinced and change my mind is sufficient evidence. I consider the Bible wrong on almost everything factually because 1)nobody ever gave evidence of any of its claims and 2)we actually have evidence that contradict these claims. The Flood, the Exodus, the Tower of Babel. But if you can back it up then bring it on.

    Then if you can convince me I'd encourage you to get a Nobel price in something because you would have radically changed our knowledge of history, medicine, physics, heck even geography.

    That sounds a tall order, but I won't flinch from my responsibilities either. It's not in my nature to do so.

    You'll understand then if I take a while in preparing my case for the Defence in R v God [2018]?

    --David Dragonpol QC.

    Well it's not a tall order if you do what you say you can do i.e. provide the evidence. Because it would change completely our perception of the world.

    @TheWizardOfIce I actually think that even if the resurrection of Jesus was a proven fact, as well as his birth by Parthenogenesis (not completely scientifically impossible actually), that would not be proof of God, only that Jesus did indeed resurrect, was born from a Virgin, etc. What I mean is that even if one of the Biblical claims is proven, whatever it is, even the most extraordinary one, it would say nothing about every other claim. So if our common friend proves that a snake can talk, which would be in itself an achievement... Then that would say nothing of the rest. And even if God was proven to be real, I would not think worshiping him is justified.

    Buggeration. You've done me there. A talking snake would just be a YouTube sensation and a novelty for a few weeks but not proof of a higher power.

    What if it said 'God made me talk?' No?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the talking snakes thing, if we accept God created snakes, why couldn't he make one talk? He is God after all.

    There you go @Ludovico!!! Draggers has proved it. All you need to do is assume God exists (with no evidence whatsoever) and then talking snakes become totally plausible.

    Shove that up your bollocks!

    I knew you'd come through with some cast iton proof in the end Draggers.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    It's a hard brief.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281


    Case closed. At least on the talking snake. Next!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »


    Case closed. At least on the talking snake. Next!

    As the guy who started all this lunacy off a few pages back by claiming he actually believed in talking snakes I think you might have been slightly hoodwinked if that's your 'proof'.

    I'm afraid that's just a video of a snake opening its mouth with someone shouting over it.

    Now that I've explained how the trick was done perhaps you might want to reconsider your increasingly untenable position?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the talking snakes thing, if we accept God created snakes, why couldn't he make one talk? He is God after all.

    Oh come on! That's no evidence, that's two assumptions rolled into one deus ex machina, literally.

    If there was a god he could have snakes grow out a woman's head. Does that mean Medusa existed? And thus the Greek gods?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    And if there was a God he could have created dinosaurs so why does no sod mention them in your factual book of historical record?
  • Posts: 15,125
    And if there was a God he could have created dinosaurs so why does no sod mention them in your factual book of historical record?

    Christians claim they are mentioned (all those monsters). Then again the Bible claims the moon emits light and that bats are birds...
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And if there was a God he could have created dinosaurs so why does no sod mention them in your factual book of historical record?

    Christians claim they are mentioned (all those monsters). Then again the Bible claims the moon emits light and that bats are birds...

    And there are talking snakes.

    I mean really? Each time I think about it I'm staggered afresh. People actually BELIEVE every word of a story in which a bloke just randomly decides to create everything that ever existed (never been explained why he did that by the way. Did he just get bored after spending infinity in total darkness and with nothing to pass his time? I guess it was an age before Netflix, PS4 and Youporn) and then creates one man and one woman and leaves them to lounge around in paradise. But then he decides that's a bit dull so he decides he will test their loyalty to him (despite the fact that he is God so knows precisely how they will react because HE CREATED THEM FFS!) by setting a rather childish trap of saying 'Don't you dare eat one of those apples!' and then sending a TALKING SNAKE to talk them into doing the opposite. And then when they eat one of the apples he goes mental and kicks them out of paradise (because he's an all forgiving and loving God) and leaves them and their offspring to fend for themselves only intervening from time to time to slaughter them by the thousand when they piss him off for giving in to base human instincts which HE GAVE TO THEM.

    And that's just act one. This stuff goes on for page after page.

    On what level of insanity do you have to be operating to, firstly, believe all this incoherent drivel actually happened and, secondly, to want to worship someone who can best be described as a psychotic Truman Show producer stage managing every aspect of your life ('I know why don't I give that person cancer and let his family die in a car crash at the same time? That would make for interesting viewing')?

  • Posts: 4,617
    We are making progress. I am guessing 20 years ago, atheists would be afraid of giving their 100% honest views as there was still a taboo about upsetting religious people. The taboo still exists but it is being steadily eroded and the www has played a great role in enabling like minded people to get together and exchange their views.

    Religions already did this by constructing large, impressive buildings and ordering followers to regularly meet up. Atherists never did this (why would they) but the web has really helped. Yourtube especially for me has provided so much material to consider and think about.
  • Posts: 4,617
    The scene is clever as it fits perfectly into the plot. There is a reason and direction for her to be in the pool and the bikini. Its not just window dressing. It moves the plot on PLUS adding some glamour etc. It also has ramifications as we see she was nowhere near the time target required but, later, she goes in anyway to rescue Hunt so it tells us something about her character and where her loyalties are.

    This is proper film making IMHO
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    True.

    Such a tragedy we lost Hitch. I suppose the religious would say his cancer was punishment from God for being a heathen.

    To be fair Hitch dying of cancer is one of the best proofs for the existence of God I can think of because the guy had him on the ropes intellectually so he responded in the way has always done with people who don't bow down to him - brute violence.

    God doesn't have any reason or logic in his arguments as to why you should worship him just threats and genocide. What a top bloke lets all bow down to him.

    In fact despite all this 'all loving, all forgiving' schtick Christians peddle can anyone remember a time in the Old Testament when he wasn't anything but an utter selfish, vindictive prick?
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 4,617
    delete
  • Posts: 15,125
    It gets funnier than this. The New Testament is inconsistent with the Old Testament and could easily be described as a fanfic. There is no indication in Genesis that 1)the Original Sin requires a Savior in the future to be forgiven and 2)that there is an afterlife where you are rewarded or punished for your deeds. The whole Genesis is a primitive tale explaining how mankind and the world came to be (and by world I mean the world known by Jews at the time) and explaining why things are rough. Oh and unlike the later depictions in subsequent biblical stories, God in Genesis is neither all knowing nor all powerful.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 4,617
    There is a case that such forensic examination and discussion of the Bible is giving it a respect that it really has not earned. Imagine picking up any book in your local libray or book store. You open a page at random and find a statement of fact that a snake talked!

    Do you put the book back and move on to another book or take it home, read it and spend time with people on the web discussing whether it's true?

    It's a little tragic, when you consider all of the challenges that the human race faces, that we are faced with a debate concerning whether a snake spoke!!!
  • Posts: 15,125
    Actually I don't care about this particular claim of a talking snake. The initial claim is that archeological evidence proved events narrated in the Bible. I'm surprised that, given the amount of alleged evidence and the many, many alleged events they would ne related to @Dragonpol hasn't come up with one yet.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I'm not
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    I'm out of this thread. It's not what I came on here for. If someone else wants to try proving God's existence they can take over from me, but I've wasted enough of my time with it, to no avail. It's not my place to convert members to religion anyhow. I don't try to do it in real life so why would I try to do it online? I'm not an evangelist or theologian so I'm not well enough qualified to debate religion any further. I'm simply not intelligent or skilled enough to continue this thread.

    People here and elsewhere can believe or not believe whatever they want. That is their choice and their absolute right and, quite frankly, I'm past caring at this point. One side will never convince the other but, due to the personalities involved, this tedious debate will no doubt continue unabashed.

    The thread will continue to serve a useful purpose as the Athiest's Corner of MI6 Community, however. It seems anyone of faith has left long ago. I've got a lot of things I need to do in the real world that have been neglected thus far and I must return there. My particpation in this community will have to take a back seat for some time.

    This thread reads better than it lives.

    Farewell.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It gets funnier than this. The New Testament is inconsistent with the Old Testament and could easily be described as a fanfic. There is no indication in Genesis that 1)the Original Sin requires a Savior in the future to be forgiven and 2)that there is an afterlife where you are rewarded or punished for your deeds. The whole Genesis is a primitive tale explaining how mankind and the world came to be (and by world I mean the world known by Jews at the time) and explaining why things are rough. Oh and unlike the later depictions in subsequent biblical stories, God in Genesis is neither all knowing nor all powerful.

    Loving this. It was all retconned by P&W!
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I'm out of this thread. It's not what I came on here for. If someone else wants to try proving God's existence they can take over from me, but I've wasted enough of my time with it, to no avail. It's not my place to convert members to religion anyhow. I don't try to do it in real life so why would I try to do it online? I'm not an evangelist or theologian so I'm not well enough qualified to debate religion any further.

    People here and elsewhere can believe or not believe whatever they want. That is their choice and their absolute right and, quite frankly, I'm past caring at this point. One side will never convince the other, so this tedious debate will no doubt continue unabashed.

    The thread will continue to serve a useful purpose as the Athiest's Corner of MI6 Community, however. It seems anyone of faith has left long ago. I've got a lot of things I need to do in the real world that have been neglected thus far and I must return there. My particpation in this community will have to take a back seat for sone time.

    This thread reads better than it lives.

    Farewell.

    Well at least you could tell us why you, an outwardly intelligent person, believes in things that on the face of it are utterly ludicrous.

    Probably convincing the rest of us is impossible (because obviously there's no evidence) but what was the series of events that led you @Dragonpol to believe in it all?

    But it's a bit churlish to create such a thread and then bemoan the fact everyone makes fun of the subject matter. If you created an 'I think DAD is the best film ever made' thread ridicule would also follow. It's not our fault that the existence of God is nowadays (thankfully) a laughable concept.
  • Posts: 4,617
    It's a real shame but a pattern I have seen repeated many times. Atheists ask for evidence (not an unreasonable request). Those of faith use delaying tactics (it's a matter of faith, it was God that made the snake talk, etc etc) and, eventually, when pushed, rather than supply the evidence: "Ive had enough, I don't care anyway, think what you like, people have the right to believe what they want" etc etc,

    The dialogue can never last if focussed on evidence as there simply isn't any so it has to end somehow and this is the usual pattern of almost every thread I have seen in all forums.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    It's a real shame but a pattern I have seen repeated many times. Atheists ask for evidence (not an unreasonable request). Those of faith use delaying tactics (it's a matter of faith, it was God that made the snake talk, etc etc) and, eventually, when pushed, rather than supply the evidence: "Ive had enough, I don't care anyway, think what you like, people have the right to believe what they want" etc etc,

    The dialogue can never last if focussed on evidence as there simply isn't any so it has to end somehow and this is the usual pattern of almost every thread I have seen in all forums.

    Yeah as you say classic tactic of someone with nowhere left to go.

    @Ludovico asked very politely for evidence time and time again and despite prevaricating all week and suggesting he would bring something to the table in the end @Dragonpol was forced to take the only viable avenue open to him.

    If that's not an admission of defeat I don't know what is.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 12,837
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I'm out of this thread. It's not what I came on here for. If someone else wants to try proving God's existence they can take over from me, but I've wasted enough of my time with it, to no avail. It's not my place to convert members to religion anyhow. I don't try to do it in real life so why would I try to do it online? I'm not an evangelist or theologian so I'm not well enough qualified to debate religion any further. I'm simply not intelligent or skilled enough to continue this thread.

    People here and elsewhere can believe or not believe whatever they want. That is their choice and their absolute right and, quite frankly, I'm past caring at this point. One side will never convince the other but, due to the personalities involved, this tedious debate will no doubt continue unabashed.

    The thread will continue to serve a useful purpose as the Athiest's Corner of MI6 Community, however. It seems anyone of faith has left long ago. I've got a lot of things I need to do in the real world that have been neglected thus far and I must return there. My particpation in this community will have to take a back seat for some time.

    This thread reads better than it lives.

    Farewell.

    Is this not exactly what this thread is for? Open religious discussion, people of all faiths and none. Don't understand why you'd start it with that in mind and then back out because the conversation wasn't going the way you liked. If you wanted a more pro Christianity thread you should have started one. It'd be like if I started a "who's the best Bond actor thread" and then bowed out when Dalton got outvoted.
  • Posts: 4,617
    No reflection of this thread but many believers find an evidence based dialogue completely alien to them and it can make them feel uneasy/unsettled. Certainly very different from church or other gatherings where beliefs are confirmed without question. These gatherings are comforting and non-agressive

    Considering how much emotional investment thtat's made into "God", the suggestion that this has been a complete waste of time is something that is so horrible re the ramifications that open discussion is very hard to have.

    Telling a child that Father Christmas is coming is a much easier conversation to have rather than "Father Christmas never existed. The whole thing was a lie."

  • Posts: 15,125
    @TheWizardOfIce I think compared the the Bible P&W made minimal retconning.

    @Dragonpol I merely asked for evidence for your claims about... archeological evidence proving the events of the Bible. One event of your choice. You made the claim I did not. I did not ask for proof of God either. Given the certainty of your affirmation I should think this would be easy.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce I think compared the the Bible P&W made minimal retconning.

    @Dragonpol I merely asked for evidence for your claims about... archeological evidence proving the events of the Bible. One event of your choice. You made the claim I did not. I did not ask for proof of God either. Given the certainty of your affirmation I should think this would be easy.

    Well, we'll start here then:

    http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
This discussion has been closed.