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  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Any links to it, @Dragonpol?

    It might be online. I think it is, but this was in one of the print magazines I bought. I'll have a look for you when I get back home to my PC, @DarthDimi. I think there's an article on it too and the letter was a response to it. It's a bit dated now I guess, but interesting from a historical POV nonetheless!

    I thought it was from the 60s, but this seems to be the article here:

    http://www.unz.org/Pub/Encounter-1971jul-00008

    You can get all of Encounter magazine (1953-1990) online in .pdf file form at the above site. Well worth reading. I have a few of the print editions too. They're very collectible these days and contain brilliant writing from many famous authors and poets including our very own Kingsley Amis.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce I think compared the the Bible P&W made minimal retconning.

    @Dragonpol I merely asked for evidence for your claims about... archeological evidence proving the events of the Bible. One event of your choice. You made the claim I did not. I did not ask for proof of God either. Given the certainty of your affirmation I should think this would be easy.

    Well, we'll start here then:

    http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

    Right off the start there's a HUGE fallacy: the Flood has never been proven and in fact there's no physical trace of a world Flood and of migration of all the species of animals on earth from a big boat. There are however many myths of world Flood, but that's no indication that there was one at any point in history, especially since there's no physical evidence for it. It indicates however the possible existence of an initial myth that evolved and was modified in various cultures. None of them of course could work in reality. Including the very naive Biblical myth.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "The Christian Research Institute exists to provide Christians worldwide with carefully researched information and well-reasoned answers that encourage them in their faith and equip them to intelligently represent it to people influenced by ideas and teachings that assault or undermine biblical Christianity and the essentials of the historic Christian faith."
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce I think compared the the Bible P&W made minimal retconning.

    @Dragonpol I merely asked for evidence for your claims about... archeological evidence proving the events of the Bible. One event of your choice. You made the claim I did not. I did not ask for proof of God either. Given the certainty of your affirmation I should think this would be easy.

    Well, we'll start here then:

    http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

    Right off the start there's a HUGE fallacy: the Flood has never been proven and in fact there's no physical trace of a world Flood and of migration of all the species of animals on earth from a big boat. There are however many myths of world Flood, but that's no indication that there was one at any point in history, especially since there's no physical evidence for it. It indicates however the possible existence of an initial myth that evolved and was modified in various cultures. None of them of course could work in reality. Including the very naive Biblical myth.

    And of course even if proof of said flood did exist there's a world of difference between saying it happened and saying God made it happen to punish us.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Many ancient cultures have stories of a big flood. Not exclusive to Christianity.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 12,474
    I don’t like to post often in this thread, seeing as religion is such a touchy subject and it seems most posting here are quite adamant about their positions. I always try to look at both sides of an argument, and be as objective as I can - especially when it comes to religion and politics.

    The problem with having evidence for religion is that then the faith aspect would shrink. Those who choose to have faith in what they can’t see is basically why some people are religious and some aren’t. It’s a comfort to many people, including some people very close to me in my life, and I would never ridicule them for their beliefs since they don’t impose them or use them in harmful ways. I myself come from a Christian background, and my own faith has been tested many times, to where I feel unsure about a lot of things. You don’t need to even belong to a religion to believe in God, which sometimes people forget. I definitely have my issues with organized religion.

    Many Christians will say atheists don’t believe because they are too prideful or don’t want to take responsibility. Many atheists say Christians shouldn’t believe because there is no evidence and it’s a waste of time. I respect both sides, especially because I know plenty of good people who are both Christian (or have a different religion) and atheist - or agnostic. I hope in the Community, and the world in general, we don’t allow our spiritual beliefs to divide us too badly.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce I think compared the the Bible P&W made minimal retconning.

    @Dragonpol I merely asked for evidence for your claims about... archeological evidence proving the events of the Bible. One event of your choice. You made the claim I did not. I did not ask for proof of God either. Given the certainty of your affirmation I should think this would be easy.

    Well, we'll start here then:

    http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

    Right off the start there's a HUGE fallacy: the Flood has never been proven and in fact there's no physical trace of a world Flood and of migration of all the species of animals on earth from a big boat. There are however many myths of world Flood, but that's no indication that there was one at any point in history, especially since there's no physical evidence for it. It indicates however the possible existence of an initial myth that evolved and was modified in various cultures. None of them of course could work in reality. Including the very naive Biblical myth.

    And of course even if proof of said flood did exist there's a world of difference between saying it happened and saying God made it happen to punish us.

    Of course. We're not even arguing God yet. The Flood did not happen to begin with. We'd know by now if it had.

    @patb The text cares about propaganda and reinforcing faith. Not truth.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    "The Christian Research Institute exists to provide Christians worldwide with carefully researched information and well-reasoned answers that encourage them in their faith and equip them to intelligently represent it to people influenced by ideas and teachings that assault or undermine biblical Christianity and the essentials of the historic Christian faith."

    Any chance of some 'evidence' from someone reputable who doesn't have a blatant vested intetest?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    So it's not evidence but a certain brand of evidence you are looking for? I thought as much. Nothing would satisfy any of you here. As I thought, it's a pointless exercise.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I'm out of this thread. It's not what I came on here for. If someone else wants to try proving God's existence they can take over from me, but I've wasted enough of my time with it, to no avail. It's not my place to convert members to religion anyhow. I don't try to do it in real life so why would I try to do it online? I'm not an evangelist or theologian so I'm not well enough qualified to debate religion any further. I'm simply not intelligent or skilled enough to continue this thread.

    People here and elsewhere can believe or not believe whatever they want. That is their choice and their absolute right and, quite frankly, I'm past caring at this point. One side will never convince the other but, due to the personalities involved, this tedious debate will no doubt continue unabashed.

    The thread will continue to serve a useful purpose as the Athiest's Corner of MI6 Community, however. It seems anyone of faith has left long ago. I've got a lot of things I need to do in the real world that have been neglected thus far and I must return there. My particpation in this community will have to take a back seat for some time.

    This thread reads better than it lives.

    Farewell.

    Is this not exactly what this thread is for? Open religious discussion, people of all faiths and none. Don't understand why you'd start it with that in mind and then back out because the conversation wasn't going the way you liked. If you wanted a more pro Christianity thread you should have started one. It'd be like if I started a "who's the best Bond actor thread" and then bowed out when Dalton got outvoted.

    Well, everyone has got saying their piece quite fairly, have they not? I have delivered this thread when many said from the very outset that it was simply impossible for it to exist. I suppose that's something.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    So it's not evidence but a certain brand of evidence you are looking for? I thought as much. Nothing would satisfy any of you here. As I thought, it's a pointless exercise.

    @Dragonpol I am asking for reliable evidence. What you showed is twisted evidence that are not followed by the ones presenting them but arranged to fit their agenda and their preconceived ideas. They reach a conclusion before analyzing the data.I'm glad you came up with something about the Flood as I studied myths and I know a thing or two about this particular one. It's now been debunked and has been since a long time. I've seen the tomb of Merlin that does not mean Merlin existed.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    So it's not evidence but a certain brand of evidence you are looking for? I thought as much. Nothing would satisfy any of you here. As I thought, it's a pointless exercise.

    I thought you were supposed to have a degree in law?

    Ask yourself if evidence from a source so clearly compromised would stand up in court?

    Would a jury consider eviidence from Fred in defence of Rose as credible?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I imagine there's little point continuing then?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    So it's not evidence but a certain brand of evidence you are looking for? I thought as much. Nothing would satisfy any of you here. As I thought, it's a pointless exercise.

    I thought you were supposed to have a degree in law?

    Ask yourself if evidence from a source so clearly compromised would stand up in court?

    Would a jury consider eviidence from Fred in defence of Rose as credible?

    Yes, I've got a Masters conversion course degree in Law. No, it would not stand up in court I'd imagine but Atheists providing sources on the evidence of Biblical claims are very hard to find.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489


    Another talking snake. Not sure how much more evidence you need.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Oh come on! Can we from what has been presented conclude that there most likely was a Flood drowning the earth and that said Flood was as described in the Bible and that an elderly man saved not only a bit of mankind, enough to repopulate earth, but also every species of animals on the planet? Forget we're atheists. That's irrelevant. Can you back up the claims above with what you presented?

    Oh and such flood would have created massive amounts of archeological evidence: lots of corpses, traces of migrating animals, what have you.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    I can't seem to provide what you are looking for. As I say, it's beyond my means.
  • Posts: 15,125
    I'm looking for the evidence you mentioned that proved the Flood AND proved its biblical account.

    I understand that so far you cannot back up your claim? Forget me, forget I'm an atheist, my personal opinion is irrelevant. Has your claim met its burden or proof?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I don't remember agreeing to proving the Flood happened in the first place.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I can't seem to provide what you are looking for. As I say, it's beyond my means.

    But I thought you said you had the archaeological evidence?

    If you are basing your conclusions entirely on the link you posted from a Christian website don't you agree that doesn't show much intellectual rigour?

    Given believing in God is a pretty monumental step given the implications for your soul and eternal life I would've assume you'd search out multiple sources to make sure you could make an informed decision?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I don't remember agreeing to proving the Flood happened in the first place.

    You said there was archeological evidence proving many events in the Bible. The first link you share talks about the Flood. If you think it did not proved the Flood... Why provide said link?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I don't remember agreeing to proving the Flood happened in the first place.

    You said there was archeological evidence proving many events in the Bible. The first link you share talks about the Flood. If you think it did not proved the Flood... Why provide said link?

    Well, fair enough.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I don't remember agreeing to proving the Flood happened in the first place.

    You said there was archeological evidence proving many events in the Bible. The first link you share talks about the Flood. If you think it did not proved the Flood... Why provide said link?

    Well, fair enough.

    Well I'd say so. And thus the Flood claim is so far unsubstantiated.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I don't remember agreeing to proving the Flood happened in the first place.

    You said there was archeological evidence proving many events in the Bible. The first link you share talks about the Flood. If you think it did not proved the Flood... Why provide said link?

    Well, fair enough.

    Well I'd say so. And thus the Flood claim is so far unsubstantiated.

    It will remain so. I don't have a degree in the relevant discipline.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Neither do I, but I do know a thing or two about history and about myths. And just like you and everyone here I am capable of critical thinking.

    In any case we can all agree that the content of a Christisn apologist's website can hardly count as scientific consensus or demonstration beyond any doubt of the veracity of a Biblical claim.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Its like trying to prove Duran Duran are the best band ever and pointing people towards the Duran Duran fan club web page for evidence to prove the claim.

    Of course, if you love Duran Duran, you would not see an issue with this.

  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »
    Its like trying to prove Duran Duran are the best band ever and pointing people towards the Duran Duran fan club web page for evidence to prove the claim.

    Of course, if you love Duran Duran, you would not see an issue with this.

    If at least they had done their homework and gathered the evidence, analyzed and came up with intellectually honest arguments. But then they'd have to say: the Bible is a holy book but it's highly unreliable history and most of the events in it are fabricated.

    It's not saying God doesn't exist. Just that this god does not.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Maybe someone better will come along and provide what you need. I've had messages of support from two members for my stance in this thread.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Well you were adamant about archeology conforming the Bible. Then you turn around and say in substance that you this is not really the case. I'd reassess my beliefs and would encourage these two members to reassess theirs too or come out here and say what they believe in and why.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I don't know what I said but I'm still a believer.
This discussion has been closed.