The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • Posts: 15,125
    NicNac wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    The classes must have been a little quiet.

    Quite the opposite intense argument and debate

    Religious debates among believers is like arguing whether Deckard is a replicant or not. For a fan of Blade Runner it's interesting if not essential. For an outsider it's meaningless.

    41 pages for this thread suggest otherwise @Ludovico ;)

    Because it's not a debate among believers. And it's not a religious debate as much as a debate about religion and religions. Nobody here debates whether transubstantiation or consubstantiation is the right nature of Communion, or whether Mary remained a Virgin after Jesus's birth.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Ok, sorry, misunderstood. 'Meaningless' as in the whole concept of religion is meaningless and not worthy of debate. The debate is about whether religion should even be around to be debated.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I studied Religious Studies at University, it taught me never to discuss religion certainly online.

    From my experiences in this thread, that was the sagest advice they could have taught you. I must remember that one.
  • Posts: 15,125
    NicNac wrote: »
    Ok, sorry, misunderstood. 'Meaningless' as in the whole concept of religion is meaningless and not worthy of debate. The debate is about whether religion should even be around to be debated.

    Well it could be worthy of debate within context. But unlike the universe of Blade Runner, religions claim to tell tangible truths that influence and explain reality. Blade Runner fans don't go that far. Doesn't mean studying the texts isn't interesting.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    NicNac wrote: »
    Yes, I wasn't trying to suggest any exclusivity. Christianity has run amok in past centuries, and individuals carry out their crimes these days having been spoken to by God. I get all that, but we are in an age now where Islam is making the western world more than a little nervous.

    Do Muslims who carry out their crimes hide behind their God as an excuse for their actions, or do they really believe they are doing what they do for God? Their religious fervour is a curious thing, but |I do wonder if many secretly have no real belief, but are perhaps too scared to show it.
    The only way you can use religion as an excuse for attrocities, is if your god is an external force/entity, as opposed to residing in yourself.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    NicNac wrote: »
    Yes, I wasn't trying to suggest any exclusivity. Christianity has run amok in past centuries, and individuals carry out their crimes these days having been spoken to by God. I get all that, but we are in an age now where Islam is making the western world more than a little nervous.

    Do Muslims who carry out their crimes hide behind their God as an excuse for their actions, or do they really believe they are doing what they do for God? Their religious fervour is a curious thing, but |I do wonder if many secretly have no real belief, but are perhaps too scared to show it.
    The only way you can use religion as an excuse for attrocities, is if your god is an external force/entity, as opposed to residing in yourself.

    I would imagine extremists see it as a combination of both those things.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You mean psychopaths? Agree.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,023
    NicNac wrote: »
    Yes, I wasn't trying to suggest any exclusivity. Christianity has run amok in past centuries, and individuals carry out their crimes these days having been spoken to by God. I get all that, but we are in an age now where Islam is making the western world more than a little nervous.

    Do Muslims who carry out their crimes hide behind their God as an excuse for their actions, or do they really believe they are doing what they do for God? Their religious fervour is a curious thing, but |I do wonder if many secretly have no real belief, but are perhaps too scared to show it.

    I believe in Islam the penalty for apostasy is death. So Muslim's who leave their religion behind are very brave indeed. Especially when so called 'moderate' Muslim's agree with the penalty....
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    They murder you moderately.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    They murder you moderately.

    It's kinder that way. That's the sort of nice chaps they are.
  • Posts: 4,617
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42787097

    A woman fighting to stop doctors ending life support treatment for her sick 11-month-old son has told a judge that God should decide when he dies.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    patb wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42787097

    A woman fighting to stop doctors ending life support treatment for her sick 11-month-old son has told a judge that God should decide when he dies.

    No, it's down to the judge in these sorts of cases. It is her child though, so I can of course understand how she feels.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Sorry to sound harsh but if it's God's desision, stop the support and see how the poor kid gets on. Science has saved him and science is keeping him alive.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    patb wrote: »
    Sorry to sound harsh but if it's God's desision, stop the support and see how the poor kid gets on. Science has saved him and science is keeping him alive.

    I said these decisions are made by judges, and as a lawyer of sorts, I'm glad that they get to decide.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Sorry to sound harsh but if it's God's desision, stop the support and see how the poor kid gets on. Science has saved him and science is keeping him alive.

    I said these decisions are made by judges, and as a lawyer of sorts, I'm glad that they get to decide.

    Sorry? You're glad that judges get to decide that science can keep a boy alive when otherwise he'd die? Surely you aren't questioning God's right and wisdom to kill children?

    Once you cross the line from reason to faith you give up the option to criticise the all powerful, all loving creator don't you?
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    edited January 2018 Posts: 40,978
    Personally, the conversation stops for me when I'm supposed to accept that it's all part of God's plan. This all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being has a plan that incorporates injecting innocent children with cancer, apparently. Doesn't inspire confidence.

    I guess that goes to show just how "fool-proof" religion is. Something good happens? It's because you prayed, it was God's will, he meant for it to happen for you! Young kids dying in a cold hospital bed? War, famine, disease, and rape? Well it's part of his plan, obviously.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Sorry to sound harsh but if it's God's desision, stop the support and see how the poor kid gets on. Science has saved him and science is keeping him alive.

    I said these decisions are made by judges, and as a lawyer of sorts, I'm glad that they get to decide.

    Sorry? You're glad that judges get to decide that science can keep a boy alive when otherwise he'd die? Surely you aren't questioning God's right and wisdom to kill children?

    Once you cross the line from reason to faith you give up the option to criticise the all powerful, all loving creator don't you?

    That's just the way it is here on Earth. God provided men and women of intellect to decide on such matters, namely judges in courts of law. There were, just the same, judges in Biblical times too. There's even a book called Judges in the Bible! I myself see no conflict with having a faith and believing tin the rule of law. Many judges are conservative people with a faith. Shock horror! Perhaps that surprises you? That's too bad. It limits the imagination.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Sorry to sound harsh but if it's God's desision, stop the support and see how the poor kid gets on. Science has saved him and science is keeping him alive.

    I said these decisions are made by judges, and as a lawyer of sorts, I'm glad that they get to decide.

    Sorry? You're glad that judges get to decide that science can keep a boy alive when otherwise he'd die? Surely you aren't questioning God's right and wisdom to kill children?

    Once you cross the line from reason to faith you give up the option to criticise the all powerful, all loving creator don't you?

    That's just the way it is here on Earth. God provided men and women of intellect to decide on such matters, namely judges in courts of law. There were, just the same, judges in Biblical times too. There's even a book called Judges in the Bible! I myself see no conflict with having a faith and believing tin the rule of law. Many judges are conservative people with a faith. Shock horror! Perhaps that surprises you? That's too bad. It limits the imagination.

    Not in the least just depresses me.

    Surely if God in his infinite wisdom has chosen to give a kid cancer it is blasphemous hubris for mankind to have the temerity to intervene with their puny 'science'?

    At least people who are happy to deny medical treatment and let their kids die according to God's masterplan are true to their beliefs.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.
  • Posts: 12,474
    Science and religion both don’t answer everything. And science is always changing.
  • FoxRox wrote: »
    And science is always changing.

    Is that meant to be a bad thing? Science always changes because we discover more about the world, create new tech, etc. Religion doesn't change as much as it should because too many people are commited to following books written thousands of years ago in a much darker, less enlightened, less civilised world to the letter.

    I'm not religious myself but using it as a vague spiritual guide as someone said a few pages back, I think that's fine. If someone is on their deathbed and takes comfort in believing they'll be moving on to heaven I wouldn't want to begrudge them that. But what isn't cool is fundamentalists who let it cloud their basic sense of human decency and even go as far as to try and affect the rest of us (this could range from blowing up infidels to actively campaigning against gay marriage, abortion, etc on religious grounds).
  • Posts: 12,474
    The fact that science changes always has me in doubt about the world, and we never really know anything for certain. There’s no perfect way to know about the world unfortunately; science is the closest thing we’ve got.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.

    So you're a fan of science when it comes to saving your life just not when it comes to plate tectonics that make a mockery of your little book?
  • Posts: 4,617
    “Religion was the race's first (and worst) attempt to make sense of reality. It was the best the species could do at a time when we had no concept of physics, chemistry, biology or medicine. We did not know that we lived on a round planet, let alone that the said planet was in orbit in a minor and obscure solar system, which was also on the edge of an unimaginably vast cosmos that was exploding away from its original source of energy. We did not know that micro-organisms were so powerful and lived in our digestive systems in order to enable us to live, as well as mounting lethal attacks on us as parasites. We did not know of our close kinship with other animals. We believed that sprites, imps, demons, and djinns were hovering in the air about us. We imagined that thunder and lightning were portentous. It has taken us a long time to shrug off this heavy coat of ignorance and fear, and every time we do there are self-interested forces who want to compel us to put it back on again.”
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.

    So you're a fan of science when it comes to saving your life just not when it comes to plate tectonics that make a mockery of your little book?

    I didn't say that. I agreed on the plate tectonics point. I leave the 'making a mockery' thing to you, old chap.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.

    Care to support the latest statement with any data to back it up? It depends of the discipline of course but I understand a majority is actually atheist.

    As for science and religion working together name one scientific progress caused by religious faith.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited January 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.

    Care to support the latest statement with any data to back it up? It depends of the discipline of course but I understand a majority is actually atheist.

    As for science and religion working together name one scientific progress caused by religious faith.

    Christian Scientists for a start.

    Hasn't all scientific progress been down to an urge to rail against and attempt to disprove the Bible? At least according to the Athiests in this thread. So, there's too many to count.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    It's curious how you feel that science and religion should always be in competition or at each other's throats all of the time. I don't think it's quite that simple. The picture is much more nuanced than that. Plenty of scientists are Christians too.

    Care to support the latest statement with any data to back it up? It depends of the discipline of course but I understand a majority is actually atheist.

    As for science and religion working together name one scientific progress caused by religious faith.

    Christian Scientists for a start.

    Oh dear.

    The opening paragraph of the Christian Science wiki:

    'Christian Science is a set of beliefs and practices belonging to the metaphysical family of new religious movements.[n 2] It was developed in 19th-century New England by Mary Baker Eddy, who argued in her book Science and Health (1875) that sickness is an illusion that can be corrected by prayer alone. The book became Christian Science's central text, along with the Bible, and by 2001 had sold over nine million copies.'


    As scientific texts go this is clearly on a par with Newton's Principia and Darwin's On The Origin Of Species.
  • Posts: 12,474
    I don’t support faith healing, but grown adults are free to do as they wish. Should never be inflicted on a child though. Whether you are religious or not, it’s your responsibility to use the resources around you to get help. If you just sit back, God will not do everything for you.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,177
    NicNac wrote: »
    Yes, I wasn't trying to suggest any exclusivity. Christianity has run amok in past centuries, and individuals carry out their crimes these days having been spoken to by God. I get all that, but we are in an age now where Islam is making the western world more than a little nervous.

    Do Muslims who carry out their crimes hide behind their God as an excuse for their actions, or do they really believe they are doing what they do for God? Their religious fervour is a curious thing, but |I do wonder if many secretly have no real belief, but are perhaps too scared to show it.

    I knew a chap who was Muslim that lived in Tunisia, he was more relaxed about his faith he would occasionally drink Alcohol and was not keen on women covering up. On occasion he would beat himself up for going against rules of his faith, ultimately he was very fearful of his God. I remember on one occasion he was struggling with Ramadan literally exhausted as he had a very physical job, though he refused to eat during the day when it was obvious he was unwell.
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