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  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited January 2018 Posts: 425
    Again you choose to use the word "educate", which implies everyone else is ignorant and in need of your special guidance... rather than you being just another person offering an opinion.

    I don't follow a religion, but I don't look down on those who do, as all being delusional morons who need to be saved from themselves, either.

    IMO That is a very arrogant standpoint to take
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Seve wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'm not presuming I am or at least try to.

    But why do you feel the need to?
    In that way you are just as misguided as a person knocking on my door wanting to tell me about God. In my experience Atheists seem to feel the need to actively oppose, rather than just ignoring something which has no relevance to them.

    I do ignore things that have no relevance to me. I don't make comments on trainspotting or people who misguidedly believe the earth is flat.

    But I'm afraid whilst people kill in the name of religion, whilst child abuse is covered up by religion, whilst government policy panders to religion then it does affect all of us and sticking your head in the sand and saying ignore this cancer is an attitude that will come back to haunt you just as ignoring a shadow on your lung would.

    Atheists don't categorically say there is no God because there is no way we can prove that. Indeed it would be fantastic if there is one (although not the capricious and vindictive genocidal maniac of the bible) and when we die we do all go and live in heaven with our loved ones.

    It's just that the evidence for the existence of God is so deeply flawed that any intelligent person has to reject the current hypotheses as peddled by religion as utter cobblers.

    All we ever 'preach' is that people use the same logic and reason they apply to every other sphere of their life to think for themselves.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited January 2018 Posts: 425

    But I'm afraid whilst people kill in the name of religion, whilst child abuse is covered up by religion, whilst government policy panders to religion then it does affect all of us and sticking your head in the sand and saying ignore this cancer is an attitude that will come back to haunt you just as ignoring a shadow on your lung would.

    Good point, but the fact that people have used the mechanism of the Church for their own twisted purposes does not invalidate the truth or otherwise of the underlying doctrine.

    Apparently there is always a struggle going on between "good" and "evil" and most of us have been backing the wrong horse whichever way you slice it.

    For the sake of discussion, the Old Testament God you mentioned may be quite happy to allow these things to occur, in the same way I sometimes watch ants and half drowned wasps struggle for survival by the side of the swimming pool, but he would still be God.



  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Seve wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, the Old Testament God you mentioned may be quite happy to allow these things to occur, in the same way I sometimes watch ants and half drowned wasps struggle for survival by the side of the swimming pool, but he would still be God.

    Indeed. But then why would anyone want to worship such an entity?

    Ian Brady used to torture helpless animals that he had power of life and death over. That's the mentality we're dealing with if you believe in a God who creates children only to give them cancer. Very worthy of love and devotion.

    If that guy does exist the best people should give him is the cowed respect the playground bully commands.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Seve wrote: »
    Again you choose to use the word "educate", which implies everyone else is ignorant and in need of your special guidance... rather than you being just another person offering an opinion.

    I don't follow a religion, but I don't look down on those who do, as all being delusional morons who need to be saved from themselves, either.

    IMO That is a very arrogant standpoint to take

    If you misuse a term then explaining what it means and correcting a misconception is indeed educating, whether I do it or someone else does. And I can be ignorant in various matters (PDF conversion, black holes, nuclear physics, how to make a Black Forest cake) where I can be educated. And that is the same if people here claim that Noah's Ark existed, that take the Gospel as... gospel, etc. I can explain (or others here) how these claims are unfounded at best (and often erroneous). Which is educating people.

    And I don't follow you when you say the OT God would still be God... Whether he exists or not, the way he is depicted in the Bible is of a rather unpleasant character.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited January 2018 Posts: 425
    Seve wrote: »
    For the sake of discussion, the Old Testament God you mentioned may be quite happy to allow these things to occur, in the same way I sometimes watch ants and half drowned wasps struggle for survival by the side of the swimming pool, but he would still be God.

    Indeed. But then why would anyone want to worship such an entity?

    One word, "Fear" (As in "God-fearing")

    Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
    Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
    God said, "No" Abe say, "What?"
    God say, "Abe, you can do what you want, but
    The next time you see me comin', you better run"
    Well, Abe said, "Where d'you want this killin' done?"
    God said, "Out on Highway 61"

    Bob Dylan

    If that guy does exist the best people should give him is the cowed respect the playground bully commands.

    Like Kim Jong-Un or The Donald?

    Indeed, I guess that's why the emphasis is placed on the New Testament version of God?

    (My pet theory, in his "missing years" Jesus experienced Buddhism and adapted many of those ideas to fit his native context...)

  • Posts: 15,125
    Is the God of the NT any better? He gives eternal damnation for the unbelievers! That's actually worse.
  • Posts: 4,617
    (My pet theory, in his "missing years" Jesus experienced Buddhism and adapted many of those ideas to fit his native context...)

    I honestly have no idea whether that is a serious post or not.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 425
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Is the God of the NT any better? He gives eternal damnation for the unbelievers! That's actually worse.

    lol
    True dat, the bottom line remains much the same; - if your not on board your in trouble

    Alternatively I'll be coming back around as a half drowned wasp...

  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »
    (My pet theory, in his "missing years" Jesus experienced Buddhism and adapted many of those ideas to fit his native context...)

    I honestly have no idea whether that is a serious post or not.

    Mine is that he traveled up north, became a pirate, then finding male company at sea he came back and started a gay cult. Makes sense.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited January 2018 Posts: 425
    patb wrote: »
    Seve wrote: »
    (My pet theory, in his "missing years" Jesus experienced Buddhism and adapted many of those ideas to fit his native context...)

    I honestly have no idea whether that is a serious post or not.

    I'm serious in the sense that, as an "amatuer historian", I find it an attractive idea, but not serious in the sense that I believe that's actually how it happened. I haven't seen or heard of any concrete evidence to support it, but I've read some articles where people point out similarities between some Buddhist teachings and those of Jesus, which often appear to be at odds with Old Testament teachings.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "I'm serious in the sense that, as an "amatuer historian", I find it an attractive idea,"

    Religion in a nutshell
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited January 2018 Posts: 425
    patb wrote: »
    "I'm serious in the sense that, as an "amatuer historian", I find it an attractive idea,"

    Religion in a nutshell

    You've lost me a bit there, a good historian should be objective about trying to determine what actually happened. Sometimes ideas suggest themselves, but if they aren't supported by evidence, then they should be flagged as being only theories.

    A bad historian is one who is trying to fit history to some predetermined political or sociological or religious agenda, which they want to promote, and asserts their interpretation as being a truth beyond dispute.

    Taken at face value, religions are recording the word of God.

    Taking a sociological view, they are an attempt to strengthen the framework of a society, by providing an over arching power that the general populace will respect, or at least fear, enough to follow the rules.
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    Posts: 425
    Ludovico wrote: »

    Mine is that he traveled up north, became a pirate, then finding male company at sea he came back and started a gay cult. Makes sense.

    I think you're getting him mixed up with Captain Flint from the TV series "Black Sails"

  • Posts: 15,125
    No, no, as an amateur historian I'm just trying to keep an open mind. My hypothesis would explain why Jesus had only male disciples and ask them to leave their wife and family.

    No seriously my point is: not all claim is worthy. A good historian or scientist does not lead the evidence but goes where the evidence leads. If there is evidence of course. And thus not all claims are equally valid. One unsupported by evidence can rejected as such.
  • Posts: 4,617
    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/jan/26/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-rattlesnakes-mack-wolford-lauren-pond-test-of-faith-old-yeller-rattlesnake

    'Praise the lord and pass the rattlesnakes': the pastor killed by the viper he preached with"

    Can you enter the Darwin Awards if you don't believe in Darwin?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    patb wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/jan/26/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-rattlesnakes-mack-wolford-lauren-pond-test-of-faith-old-yeller-rattlesnake

    'Praise the lord and pass the rattlesnakes': the pastor killed by the viper he preached with"

    Can you enter the Darwin Awards if you don't believe in Darwin?

    Oh blissful irony. :D
  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/jan/26/praise-the-lord-and-pass-the-rattlesnakes-mack-wolford-lauren-pond-test-of-faith-old-yeller-rattlesnake

    'Praise the lord and pass the rattlesnakes': the pastor killed by the viper he preached with"

    Can you enter the Darwin Awards if you don't believe in Darwin?

    That snake can't speak but it sure can bite. I don't feel sorry for the guy.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Evolution: to remove the weak from the gene pool by their own stupidity.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Priceless stuff.

    And no doubt his moronic followers just put it down as God's will and carried on praying and banging their tambourines?

    Where's Colin Firth when you need him?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    He was hypnotized.
    hypnosis_in_the_night_by_pasta79-d7dv5sw.jpg
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him. If he God's power really was protecting him how about sticking his hand in a nest and pulling a random one out?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him.

    I feel that someone could make a point about muslim immigration here.

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him.

    I feel that someone could make a point about muslim immigration here.

    Just not you.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him.

    I feel that someone could make a point about muslim immigration here.

    Just not you.
    Not just me.
  • Posts: 15,125
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him. If he God's power really was protecting him how about sticking his hand in a nest and pulling a random one out?

    He's been let down by Jesus.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 9,848
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Risico007 You'd need first to demonstrate that Jesus did die the way it was depicted in the Bible. Or that he existed at all. You know NDE experiences can be done in laboratory with no help of supernatural. As for the Ark please see what we said earlier in this thread. For the rest of your post it's one big appeal to authority.



    ok see my original post on this thread for proof Jesus existed but for a refresher course ignoring the new testament in it's entirety and focusing Solely on the works of Josephus and Tacitus we can still learn the following things about Jesus

    He was a miracle worker and a teacher
    He had 12 disciples
    He was beaten and Crucified
    He died and rose again on the third day
    Many of his followers saw him after he rose from the dead

    that is still the main thrux of Christianity from contemporary sources outside the bible your Move Lud.


    patb wrote: »
    NicNac wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Claiming that prayers cure diseases is fraud, plain and simple.

    I know a guy whose pregnant wife was rushed into theatre for an emergency caesarean. Her baby's heart beat was rapid, he was in distress and needed to come out. It was 130 in the morning, the hospital all but deserted and this guy was alone in the corridor while the operation was carried out.

    He was a confirmed atheist, had never been to church other than for the normal births, deaths and marriages, as we all do, but in his confused state, crying like a babe he had nothing left other than to prey to a God he didn't believe in and ask for his child to come through. So he did.

    It's all he had at that moment in time.

    Ultimately all was well, his wife and child were never in any real danger, but at 130am, he was tired and worried, had no one to comfort him and had nothing else open to him, other than to prey for help.

    It was fraudulant because he didn't really believe, but he hedged his bets good and proper.

    And afterwards he carried on as he was and carried out none of the promises he made to this God.


    This is perfect evidence of how dangerous religion is. "I know a guy" etc etc,

    try that in court. If it did not deal with the life of a baby, it would be laughable.Instead of "I know a guy" look at recovery rates at religeous hospitals compared to secular ones (other factors being equal), there is no difference.

    Plus list deseases (we assume created by God) that modern innoculation has kiiled off (or almost) compared to prayer. Sending invisible brain wave messages to an invisible sky fairy ? Please, come on! This is the 21st Century

    The "I know guy" strategy is exactly what I mentioned. Just imagine using that in court:

    "Your honour, for my next piece of evidence, I know a guy who........"

    It's a joke.


    You all do realize a numerous amount of Doctors and Hospital workers especially in the US are Christian right? in fact a large number of hospitals here were even started by churches case in point my Wife works as a nurse at Saint Raphael's (which was bought out by Yale) but re read the name do you think the hospital just liked the name no it was formed by a religious group.



    Ludovico wrote: »
    Given the time between the alleged story and the writing of the gospels and the time in history when it happened, where all sorts of superstitions abounded, no stone needed to be moved: the disciples only needed to believe they saw Jesus resurrected. Nowadays people think they see aliens, Bigfoot in far less stressful circumstances.

    I hate to sound like Colombo but one more thing Lud you say there is a gap? How long is that Gap exactly? also if your right considering how much of a nusance Christians were to the Roman Empire Why didn't they just parade the body of Jesus if his disciples were mistaken it kills Christianity RIGHT THERE. no fuss no issues.. of course the Romans didn't do that which once again shows there was no body in the tomb.. Look forward to seeing you weasel your way out of that.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    See that is why I try to educate. You have a lot of misconceptions about atheism and are making a lot of of false accusations based on this misconception.


    And you have false beliefs on Christians. Look any Christian worth their weight in salt would Easily point out how attractive Atheism is. IF you want me to point out why let me give a clear example Christ says if you lust after a woman in your heart you have already commited adultery and considering my one weakness is Women (you can keep you alcohol and drugs give me a Blond in a short skirt or a sexy stripper and I am a happy man) Atheism is EXTREMLY Attractive the idea of my urges being not sin but Evolutionary ticks that have kept man kind going and the idea of Porn being a healthy out for my love of women rather then the churchs view of how degrading it is and again how it is a form of Adultry oh yeah Atheism is beautiful (and I am pouring out my soul and conscious here so any attack on my weakness will not even be meet with anything other then a flag attack my faith fine calle me a lesser husband because I want multiple women not so much)


    oh and Wizard and Lud you two had questions about Noah's ark

    here is a documentary from the mid 90's starring Dean Stockwell



    this should answer a ton of questions you all might have. like I said the worst kept secret of Archaeology.


    In my next post I will answer whatever questions you all come up with and give further scientific evidence for NDE...


    Also Wizard glad you just took a cursorary look at the board of trustees for IANDS and ignored

    the following people

    Dr Janice Holden
    Dr. Bruce Greyson
    Dr Nancy Clark
    And
    Dr. Diane Corcoran


    I'm sure that was just an over sight on your part rather then an attempt to mis represent the group..

    Also one more thing you said something about how instead of just Doctors you wanted Nobel Prize winners who are Christian here is a link that should answer your questions

    https://www.quora.com/How-many-Nobel-laureates-of-physics-believe-in-God

    Speaking strictly in terms of Christians

    "According to 100 Years of Nobel Prize (2005), a review of Nobel prizes awarded between 1901 and 2000, 65.4% of Nobel Prize Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference (423 prizes). Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace, 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics, 62% in Medicine, 54% in Economics and 49.5% of all Literature awards."


    but I'm sure you'll move the goal posts again and say all those Nobel Prize winners don't count because pick a reason
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him. If he God's power really was protecting him how about sticking his hand in a nest and pulling a random one out?

    He's been let down by Jesus.

    And the lesson is, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him. If he God's power really was protecting him how about sticking his hand in a nest and pulling a random one out?

    He's been let down by Jesus.

    And the lesson is, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

    I'd tend to follow that even as a Christian, if only because it's safer than handling snakes. But then didn't Jesus say something giving the Great Commission about recognising his followers by their invulnerability to poisons and snake bites? However stupid was that pastor, in his stupidity he did follow the Scriptures.

    @Risico007 your original post was full of groundless claims. I'd tend to think there was a Jesus who was a cult leader and the basis of the Biblical Jesus character but his existence is not exactly proven and the stories related to him even less. When they are not in contradiction with history. In any case I'm calling you on these sources outside Christianity who said Jesus resurrected, performed miracles, etc. When did Josephus and/or Tacitus said that? What are these contemporary sources you mention? You'd be one heck of a historian to show something others have not found yet. The oldest copies of the Gospels date back at the earliest to late first century (a fragment of the Gospel of Mark according to a quick Google search). Not exactly fresh news. Given the propagandist nature of the scriptures, one should take anything they say with a huge pinch of salt, even if we had a complete manuscript written a week after the alleged events.

    Why would the Romans even feel the need to parade the body of Jesus? If he did exist and die on the cross he would have been one of many Jewish cult leaders or wannabe Messiahs opposing their rule or suspected to oppose them that had been put to death. They might not even have known his name or much details about him. Indeed we still don't have much if any details: all we have are claims from believers.

    There are Christian doctors and nurses... as well as Muslim ones and Jewish ones and Buddhist ones and what have you. The inventor of medicine believed in the God Appolo. It's not their faith that makes them doctors and nurses it's their knowledge and skills in their discipline.

    And you have absolutely no idea about atheism. I didn't become an atheist because I found the option attractive or wished to sin but because there is no reason to believe in God. Even if this God was Aphrodite and having sex with many partners was not only allowed but compulsory. Atheism is not in itself a moral stance. Now my humanism made me reject religious notions of sin, particularly lust as I find it a normal, healthy and necessary human impulse. But if there was a God that would reveal himself to me and tell me lust is sinful and worthy of punishment simply for feeling it I'd tell him he's a disgusting puritan and want nothing to do with him.
  • Posts: 9,848
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    They don't report if the snake said 'Sorry afterwards?

    Also you note it was a pet he'd had for years so probably was reasonably comfortable with him so it took a lot to bite him. If he God's power really was protecting him how about sticking his hand in a nest and pulling a random one out?

    He's been let down by Jesus.

    And the lesson is, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test."

    I'd tend to follow that even as a Christian, if only because it's safer than handling snakes. But then didn't Jesus say something giving the Great Commission about recognising his followers by their invulnerability to poisons and snake bites? However stupid was that pastor, in his stupidity he did follow the Scriptures.

    @Risico007 your original post was full of groundless claims. I'd tend to think there was a Jesus who was a cult leader and the basis of the Biblical Jesus character but his existence is not exactly proven and the stories related to him even less. When they are not in contradiction with history. In any case I'm calling you on these sources outside Christianity who said Jesus resurrected, performed miracles, etc. When did Josephus and/or Tacitus said that? What are these contemporary sources you mention? You'd be one heck of a historian to show something others have not found yet. The oldest copies of the Gospels date back at the earliest to late first century (a fragment of the Gospel of Mark according to a quick Google search). Not exactly fresh news. Given the propagandist nature of the scriptures, one should take anything they say with a huge pinch of salt, even if we had a complete manuscript written a week after the alleged events.

    Why would the Romans even feel the need to parade the body of Jesus? If he did exist and die on the cross he would have been one of many Jewish cult leaders or wannabe Messiahs opposing their rule or suspected to oppose them that had been put to death. They might not even have known his name or much details about him. Indeed we still don't have much if any details: all we have are claims from believers.

    There are Christian doctors and nurses... as well as Muslim ones and Jewish ones and Buddhist ones and what have you. The inventor of medicine believed in the God Appolo. It's not their faith that makes them doctors and nurses it's their knowledge and skills in their discipline.

    And you have absolutely no idea about atheism. I didn't become an atheist because I found the option attractive or wished to sin but because there is no reason to believe in God. Even if this God was Aphrodite and having sex with many partners was not only allowed but compulsory. Atheism is not in itself a moral stance. Now my humanism made me reject religious notions of sin, particularly lust as I find it a normal, healthy and necessary human impulse. But if there was a God that would reveal himself to me and tell me lust is sinful and worthy of punishment simply for feeling it I'd tell him he's a disgusting puritan and want nothing to do with him.

    Your still ignoring the main issues

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TW70EEo4e2onJ4lq1QYSzrY&t=313s&v=rml5Cif01g4

    First a 9 part series on the reliability of the New Testament

    Second you do realize if Roman paraded Christ’s body through the streets there would be no Christianity which was causing the Roman’s issues in the first place sorry but the fundamental issue of the tomb is there
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