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  • Posts: 15,125
    The thing is, while most Christians would never ever want to be in a legal system akin to sharia law they forget that: 1)their own belief system if applied correctly and completely in society would actually mean imposing something nearly as oppressive and 2) Christianity opposes pretty much everything Islam opposes: equal rights, freedom of conscience, progresses of science, etc. I daresay that fundamentalist Christians have a penis envy regarding radical Islam. Look at the way they fought against the abolition of blasphemy law in the UK for instance.
  • Posts: 12,474
    A big part of that issue is simply that there are so many branches of Christianity with varying beliefs. Some are more strict about the Bible than others and whatnot, or add things that weren’t there (or take them away).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    And all Christians are atheists when it comes to all the other bountiful gods they don't believe in any more than we believe in theirs, so they are technically part atheist too (welcome to the party, we've got buttons!). Which brings about the crucial question: what if they're wrong and not only picked the wrong god out of the unending number there are, but also picked a supreme overlord that only exists in fiction along with Thor and Odin (and Allah and Xenu)?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big part of that issue is simply that there are so many branches of Christianity with varying beliefs. Some are more strict about the Bible than others and whatnot, or add things that weren’t there (or take them away).

    Something that the Bible expressly warns against doing, of course.
  • Posts: 15,125
    And all Christians are atheists when it comes to all the other bountiful gods they don't believe in any more than we believe in theirs, so they are technically part atheist too (welcome to the party, we've got buttons!). Which brings about the crucial question: what if they're wrong and not only picked the wrong god out of the unending number there are, but also picked a supreme overlord that only exists in fiction along with Thor and Odin (and Allah and Xenu)?

    They cannot all be right. But they can all be wrong.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big part of that issue is simply that there are so many branches of Christianity with varying beliefs. Some are more strict about the Bible than others and whatnot, or add things that weren’t there (or take them away).

    Something that the Bible expressly warns against doing, of course.

    Something Christians did themselves with the OT. And I don't think there's even a consensus among Christians about what's canonical and what's not.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And all Christians are atheists when it comes to all the other bountiful gods they don't believe in any more than we believe in theirs, so they are technically part atheist too (welcome to the party, we've got buttons!). Which brings about the crucial question: what if they're wrong and not only picked the wrong god out of the unending number there are, but also picked a supreme overlord that only exists in fiction along with Thor and Odin (and Allah and Xenu)?

    They cannot all be right. But they can all be wrong.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big part of that issue is simply that there are so many branches of Christianity with varying beliefs. Some are more strict about the Bible than others and whatnot, or add things that weren’t there (or take them away).

    Something that the Bible expressly warns against doing, of course.

    Something Christians did themselves with the OT. And I don't think there's even a consensus among Christians about what's canonical and what's not.

    Or rather what the NT did with the OT. I take it you are referring to the Apocrytha here?
  • Posts: 15,125
    What I mean is that they have a very liberal way of interpreting the OT and to find in it justifications to their own belief. The NT is a big fanfic that took a life of its own.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What I mean is that they have a very liberal way of interpreting the OT and to find in it justifications to their own belief. The NT is a big fanfic that took a life of its own.

    I didn't know they had fan fiction back then, or really fiction either for that matter.
  • Posts: 15,125
    You think there was no fiction in ancient texts? I'd grant you that the modern distinction between history and fiction did not really exist then, even in early modern literature, but it's not exactly showing the Bible as reliable. Even if you forget entirely about the dubious nature of the Bible as source of information for historical facts (and even dubious is a generous term), Christian notions of afterlife, of eternal punishment for the Original Sin and the requirement of a godly sacrifice to save mankind from said original sin are utterly foreign to the OT. Hence my fanfic analogy. Jesus is to the OT what midichlorians are to Star Wars.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I've never seen Star Wars.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I've never seen Star Wars.

    No disrespect but that's a bit of a cop out, surely. You've read the OT. When does it say in Genesis that sinners go to Hell and that they'll need Jesus to free humanity from the Original Sin? When is it even implied?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I've never seen Star Wars.

    No disrespect but that's a bit of a cop out, surely. You've read the OT. When does it say in Genesis that sinners go to Hell and that they'll need Jesus to free humanity from the Original Sin? When is it even implied?

    I just meant I'm not sure what that means. Perhaps you could clarify the Star Wars point? The coming of Christ was predicted in the book of Isaiah and in other places in the OT. That's well known enough.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    FoxRox wrote: »
    A big part of that issue is simply that there are so many branches of Christianity with varying beliefs. Some are more strict about the Bible than others and whatnot, or add things that weren’t there (or take them away).
    That's what is so amusing. The religious say they vehemently disagree with the atheists, but they can't even agree with each other!
    Ludovico wrote: »
    You think there was no fiction in ancient texts? I'd grant you that the modern distinction between history and fiction did not really exist then, even in early modern literature, but it's not exactly showing the Bible as reliable. Even if you forget entirely about the dubious nature of the Bible as source of information for historical facts (and even dubious is a generous term), Christian notions of afterlife, of eternal punishment for the Original Sin and the requirement of a godly sacrifice to save mankind from said original sin are utterly foreign to the OT. Hence my fanfic analogy. Jesus is to the OT what midichlorians are to Star Wars.

    Exactly, @Ludovico. The bible has all the marks of a text written by the unenlightened trying to understand the world around them, with an ignorance of space, geology, biology and all the rest. And the now outdated social norms expressed are just as obvious, including the convenience of Eve being the one that really gets the whipping for the Eden incident and laying the foundation for women being subservient to men afterward. It was so clearly a book written by men for men, etc.

    I also love the fan fiction comparison, very true! Even if we take the NT as it is, the Jesus story has endless shared tropes or clichés that can be found in god myths and parables pre-dating the bible. I'll have to find that video I mentioned once where a historian went through Jesus' story to score how many times the narrative correlated to the storytelling tradition of countless other mythic savoir/hero types (virgin birth, ties to a god like being giving them purpose, possessive of powers/abilities for amazing feats, a grand and selfless sacrifice before a heroic death, etc).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Jesus is to the OT what midichlorians are to Star Wars.

    Line of the day!! Lovely stuff!
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I've never seen Star Wars.

    As a believer you really ought to try it. It has a belief system just as valid as the bible.

    It's disgusting how people who claim they are Jedis are treated as just cranks and don't get the same rights as other religions simply because they believe in a fiction that is only 41 years old rather than 2000. How can society decide one person's beliefs in a book that has no demonstrable evidence backing up any of its claims are any more or less valid than another person's beliefs in some films that have no demonstrable evidence backing up any of it's claims?
  • Posts: 4,617
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    I've never seen Star Wars.

    No disrespect but that's a bit of a cop out, surely. You've read the OT. When does it say in Genesis that sinners go to Hell and that they'll need Jesus to free humanity from the Original Sin? When is it even implied?

    I just meant I'm not sure what that means. Perhaps you could clarify the Star Wars point? The coming of Christ was predicted in the book of Isaiah and in other places in the OT. That's well known enough.

    Well others seem to understand. What makes you think Jesus is the Messiah prophecized? How does he fit in, if at all, with the OT? Like I said, notions of afterlife and eternal damnation are pretty much foreign to Judaism. How are the Original Sin and Fall of Man ever calling for a Messiah?
  • Posts: 12,474
    Doesn’t some character in the original SW even call the force a religion?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    I'm still waiting for the evidence that was promised to us about 3200 years ago, when Moses came back from the mountain.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?

    It's there for all to see. Take your blinkers off.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?

    It's there for all to see.

    We're a bit thick here. Can you point us in the general direction at all?
  • Posts: 15,125
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Doesn’t some character in the original SW even call the force a religion?

    That officer who gets choked by Darth Vader in ANH. He is skeptical about Vader's claims, Vader proves with evidence that the Force is very real.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?

    It's there for all to see.

    We're a bit thick here. Can you point us in the general direction at all?

    Sadly it seems to have been lost in that forum glitch of 30 January.
  • Posts: 12,474
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Doesn’t some character in the original SW even call the force a religion?

    That officer who gets choked by Darth Vader in ANH. He is skeptical about Vader's claims, Vader proves with evidence that the Force is very real.

    Ah yes. That was a good scene.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?

    It's there for all to see.

    We're a bit thick here. Can you point us in the general direction at all?

    Sadly it seems to have been lost in that forum glitch of 30 January.

    So you finally admit you've got no actual evidence then?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...."

    Can anyone prove it didn't happen?

    You can't handle the truth.

    We're still waiting on some 'evidence' you promised about 2 months back aren't we?

    It's there for all to see.

    We're a bit thick here. Can you point us in the general direction at all?

    Sadly it seems to have been lost in that forum glitch of 30 January.

    Oh come on! Surely you can mention something more than a very vague statement. "Evidence is everywhere if you want to see them." Well, the Loch Ness monster is easily visible for those who believe in it, but that doesn't get anyone any closer to proving its existence.

    And I ask again where and how does Jesus fit in the Old Testament?

    And some debunking from a Jewish rabbi that should give you an idea of what I mean by the midichlorians analogy:
  • And all Christians are atheists when it comes to all the other bountiful gods they don't believe in any more than we believe in theirs, so they are technically part atheist too (welcome to the party, we've got buttons!). Which brings about the crucial question: what if they're wrong and not only picked the wrong god out of the unending number there are, but also picked a supreme overlord that only exists in fiction along with Thor and Odin (and Allah and Xenu)?

    I mentioned this a few pages back and I'd still like one of the religious members here to weigh in. Do the Christian members on here (not sure we have any muslims anymore) see the rest as false Gods, or do you all think it's different takes on the same one?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    It's a fascinating question, @thelivingroyale, but I've never seen it answered by a Christian without them deflecting or outright ignoring the inquiry. Because I think it's one of the questions atheists can pose to those of faith that can really get them thinking of where they stand and of how weak their beliefs could be if they thought about them objectively and without emotion considering how much stake and purpose they hold in God. It's not easy to think about it not being real.

    I couldn't even tell you how many gods are out there, I really couldn't, representing so many cultures. But the Christians seem to think that they've got the one guy out of all of them that is the real deal, and all the others must be fake or made up. All those gods are sure fire lies, all of them but their guy of course. I'm not a math whiz, but care to crunch the numbers on the probability of that? As @Ludovico curtly said, not all of them can be right, but all of them can be wrong. And I think it's very much the latter. Like all the other gods, God (and how odd to name him after the classic of deity he is, no?) is a very human creation that gives people fake answers to real questions of life, death and the purpose of it all. It's not easy to admit there's no greater meaning other than the purpose and legacy we make in our short time here on our own, so of course we have to be created by a god who has a very unique purpose for each of us. Death is frightening and hard to think about, so it's far easy to rest your mind and think that you're going to a cloud paradise to see all the people you've lost. Comforting thoughts for some, unhelpful lies or delusions for me.

    But for how much the bible features godly actions and miracles, it's about as ordinary and human a text as you could find. All the existential worries and lies we tell each other to get through life are the very foundations of that book. An obvious attempt by our ancient species to understand the cosmos and the stars, life and death, and what it's all for with the little knowledge open to the people of the time. But we're in the 21st century now, scientists have exploded the bible's timeline, destroyed the concept of a 6,000 year old earth thanks to locations like the Grand Canyon where we can see millions of years of development in the rock erosion, the mistakes and misperceptions of those writing the bible have long been deemed the theories of an unenlightened people who couldn't understand the scope of life on earth and so much more. It's an outdated and ancient text of outdated and ancient beliefs and ideas and it's time to move on to better, more developed and factually proven ones for the good of the species.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The thing is, while most Christians would never ever want to be in a legal system akin to sharia law they forget that: 1)their own belief system if applied correctly and completely in society would actually mean imposing something nearly as oppressive and 2) Christianity opposes pretty much everything Islam opposes: equal rights, freedom of conscience, progresses of science, etc. I daresay that fundamentalist Christians have a penis envy regarding radical Islam. Look at the way they fought against the abolition of blasphemy law in the UK for instance.

    But the fact 1) and 2) do not apply in our society makes the point moot?

    And I would suggest that fundamental Christians, like anyone in society can oppose anything they like (I oppose a lot of things as is my right, but I don't always get my way). But, if they don't get their way it tells me that they have less sway over law and society than you may think.
    So, isn't that a good thing?
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