The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,041
    Like many who were born in Germany into being an automatic member of either the Catholic or the Lutheran church, I was a happy agnostic for my first 30 or 35 years or so, paying my "church tax" collected by the State (or federal government) as a sort of surcharge on my income tax. I would also like to state that I made acquaintances with a considerable number of believers, including preachers, whom I admire a lot and who I think are beyond reproach, in spite of the following.

    Trouble (or good fortune) was that my American relatives who are/were Evangelical Christians tried to missionarize me, making me actually think about those things more deeply for the first time, expecially considering that they insisted the bible (yes, I spell that with a small "b") had to be taken literally.

    The result, after (literally) decades of comtemplating and prodding, was that I decided I didn't believe any of it and now consider myself an Atheist for all practical purposes. I officially resigned from the Lutheran church in 1991 (and so did my then-future wife), not paying those "church taxes" any more. I hated to break this to my godfather, a Lutheran pastor who was even a member of the Bekennende Kirche (Confessing Church), the anti-Nazi wing of the Lutheran church during the Third Reich. But I did and he seemed to understand my motives. I still hold him in great esteem either way.

    At the same time, I'm not eager to press my beliefs on others, seeing what the missionary zeal of those Evangelical relatives of mine effected -- namely the exact opposite of what they were trying to achieve.

    Just to let you know where I come from when I post on this subject.

  • Posts: 12,474
    Makes sense. Good to hear your godfather was understanding. I am definitely agnostic because I can’t say with 100% certainty I don’t believe in God, but I also just can’t follow any kind of religion anymore either when I know I’d be lying to myself.
  • Posts: 15,125
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Makes sense. Good to hear your godfather was understanding. I am definitely agnostic because I can’t say with 100% certainty I don’t believe in God, but I also just can’t follow any kind of religion anymore either when I know I’d be lying to myself.

    Both agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Agnosticism regards knowledge, not belief.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Many thanks for some illuminating and heartfelt posts from @FoxRox and @j_w_pepper.

    I'm sure you won't regret making that break and entering the exhilarating and limitless world of thinking for yourself.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 4,617
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09rzs61

    This maybe on interest to some. It shows that, in the modern World, religion does not have a monopoly on delusion and confirms how people can still construct their own version of reality - choosing to pick between the real World and their dream World and constructing tautologies that justify and re-inforce their beliefs without any form of evidence ("people who invent these machines have them taken by the men in black so there is no evidence") and that the laws of nature are not fixed and can be broken.

  • Posts: 12,474
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Makes sense. Good to hear your godfather was understanding. I am definitely agnostic because I can’t say with 100% certainty I don’t believe in God, but I also just can’t follow any kind of religion anymore either when I know I’d be lying to myself.

    Both agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Agnosticism regards knowledge, not belief.

    I call myself agnostic because I’m simply unsure. I cannot say if I do or don’t believe in God. I think it’s possible, but I don’t really believe in any religion. I think the theory that God or something similar set things in motion for the world is something I’d consider possible, but due to my own circumstances I’ve come to the conclusion God isn’t intervening in any way good or bad. I’m just unsure about a lot involving God and the ideas about it, but I have stopped believing in any kind of religion.
  • Posts: 12,474
    I just told my mother. She was completely understanding and opened up to me as well. I couldn’t have asked for a better result; she is a wonderful person. Tonight reinforced what I’ve always believed: believers and non-believers can share wonderful bonds too.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    edited February 2018 Posts: 1,534
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I just told my mother. She was completely understanding and opened up to me as well. I couldn’t have asked for a better result; she is a wonderful person. Tonight reinforced what I’ve always believed: believers and non-believers can share wonderful bonds too.

    You have a great mother man. I'm in total agreement with your last sentence. Respect my beliefs, I'll respect yours. Simple as that. At least in my experience.
  • Posts: 15,125
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Makes sense. Good to hear your godfather was understanding. I am definitely agnostic because I can’t say with 100% certainty I don’t believe in God, but I also just can’t follow any kind of religion anymore either when I know I’d be lying to myself.

    Both agnostic and atheist are not mutually exclusive. You can be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Agnosticism regards knowledge, not belief.

    I call myself agnostic because I’m simply unsure. I cannot say if I do or don’t believe in God. I think it’s possible, but I don’t really believe in any religion. I think the theory that God or something similar set things in motion for the world is something I’d consider possible, but due to my own circumstances I’ve come to the conclusion God isn’t intervening in any way good or bad. I’m just unsure about a lot involving God and the ideas about it, but I have stopped believing in any kind of religion.

    I'd say you are an agnostic atheist. A "weak" atheist but still. This is not a derogatory term by the way
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/21/icelands-proposed-ban-on-male-circumcision-ending-religious-tolerance-or-promoting-human-rights-7328646/

    About time this was called out for what it actually is.

    'Both Jewish and Muslim leaders have angrily criticised the bill, calling it an attack on religious freedom and tolerance.
    '

    Only with the arrogance and insanity of religion behind them could someone be more worried about protecting their medieval practices than mutilating children.

    It just goes to show the bizarre and dangerous brainwashing of religion that you can say to a parent 'Would you mind handing your precious baby over to an old bloke with a beard so he can get hold of its cock and chop the end off?' and they can't wait to oblige.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 4,617
    The obvious irony being that God created the penus to be that shaped.

    Hard to come up with a better example of the madness that religion brings. But the way that mainstream culture accepts this is just as shocking IMHO
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    The obvious irony being that God created the penus to be that shaped.

    Great shout. God the genius designer yet man has the arrogance to start chopping bits off! Where do the religious stand on cosmetic surgery by the way? Surely if you've got saggy tits then that is all part of God's plan so how can you have the temerity to go and get a boob job?

    But he really had an off day designing male genitals didn't he? Bollocks a total shambles as we've already discussed and then he went and added a whole extra bit of skin to the dick which he then had to remedy by telling his followers to cut it off for him. If he's not happy with it why not use his omnipotence to just have people born without foreskin rather than instruct his followers to snip the end off? Only certain followers though obviously, Christian God is quite happy with the original design.

    The whole concept is so badly cobbled together you'd think P&W wrote the bible/torah/koran.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "Religion makes morally normal people say and do disgusting and wicked things" Hitch would have been proud of the Icelandic nation. Some signs of progress.

  • Posts: 15,125
    If there's any benefit for circumcision, surely they'd exist if given to a consenting adult.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Here's a question for the religious (mainly Jews to be fair to Christians): what would your response be if someone just knocked on your door one day and said they were taking you away to cut the end of your cock off without anaesthetic and you have no choice in the matter?

    I'm guessing you might offer some slight objection but why should you as long as they can show you a book they have that says it will help save your soul and get you to heaven?
  • Posts: 4,617
    @TheWizardOfIce tut, tut, there you go again, using logic and reason, when will you learn?

    there was an interesting debate on Radio 4 last week and the guy representing the Jewish perspective: its better to do it to a baby as it hurts less. Nothing to do with the fact that a baby is hopeless and not able to defend themsleves.

    If a guy approachs me today carrying a knife with a view to cutting some of my genetals off, he is looking at 5-10 years in jail?,

    if a person of faith does this to a baby, it's perfectly OK. Only the religious can justify such twisted behavoir. Would love to hear from any forum members who would want to defend the practice.

    Dont forget, in the truely traditional Jewish form, the wound is sucked in the mouth by the "mohel". I kid you not!! Legally sucking a babies genetals. Authorities in NY estiamte around 3000 babies a year a subjected to the "aural suction " method.

    We really are still in the middle ages.
  • Posts: 15,125
    I think claiming it hurts less is pure b.s. How does he know? And what kind of an argument is that anyway? He's a baby he has no say in the matter and is defenseless regarding it. And that's the issue!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce tut, tut, there you go again, using logic and reason, when will you learn?

    there was an interesting debate on Radio 4 last week and the guy representing the Jewish perspective: its better to do it to a baby as it hurts less. Nothing to do with the fact that a baby is hopeless and not able to defend themsleves.

    If a guy approachs me today carrying a knife with a view to cutting some of my genetals off, he is looking at 5-10 years in jail?,

    if a person of faith does this to a baby, it's perfectly OK. Only the religious can justify such twisted behavoir. Would love to hear from any forum members who would want to defend the practice.

    Dont forget, in the truely traditional Jewish form, the wound is sucked in the mouth by the "mohel". I kid you not!! Legally sucking a babies genetals. Authorities in NY estiamte around 3000 babies a year a subjected to the "aural suction " method.

    We really are still in the middle ages.

    A swift bit of googling reveals that the practice is called 'metzitzah b’peh'.

    Here's a video of some middle aged men mutilating a defenceless and screaming (understandably) baby before one of them presses his mouth to the child's freshly cut penis:



    I'd be interested to see some of the religious members (probably down to just Draggers as Risible as defenders of religion seem few and far between round here) to even attempt to justify this on any grounds whatsoever. And I'm sorry chaps but just saying 'I'm Christian and we don't do this' doesn't cut it (no pun intended); that's just because your parents brought you up in a different faith. Once you live you life by a book written by some ill educated middle eastern tribesman you're all in the same boat for me. It's a total lottery that you live by your book instead of theirs.

    In the meantime here's a somewhat amusing brace of videos as a bloke (who seems to be something of a tosser I'll grant you) tries to report this horrific abuse to a bemused and utterly impotent police officer:





    'Now I'm not having a pop at you mate but are you saying to me you can put a kid's cut dick in your mouth and it not be illegal?'

    When it's to do with religion it seems not. Unless of course you're a Catholic priest. Youve missed a trick there lads - convert to Judaism and you're in the clear.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »

    What's troubling is how much flak the coroner is getting over this. The powers that be (including the vicars daughter) are unable to stop themselves automatically leaping to the defence of religion and giving it's bleating followers priority over the rest of us.

    Oh to be like Iceland who seem to be the only country not putting up with this shite any longer.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The funny thing about Iceland is that there are churches everywhere. In the wilderness, if there is a farm, there is also a church nearby due to an ancient law. Nowadays they are used for storing hay etc.
  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »

    What's troubling is how much flak the coroner is getting over this. The powers that be (including the vicars daughter) are unable to stop themselves automatically leaping to the defence of religion and giving it's bleating followers priority over the rest of us.

    Oh to be like Iceland who seem to be the only country not putting up with this shite any longer.

    Separation of Church and State in the UK is a big joke and a lie. They need to get rid of the C of E bishops in the House of Lords and end compulsory prayer in school assemblies. And from courthouses. Make the law of the land secular like its people.
  • Posts: 12,474
    Ludovico wrote: »
    patb wrote: »

    What's troubling is how much flak the coroner is getting over this. The powers that be (including the vicars daughter) are unable to stop themselves automatically leaping to the defence of religion and giving it's bleating followers priority over the rest of us.

    Oh to be like Iceland who seem to be the only country not putting up with this shite any longer.

    Separation of Church and State in the UK is a big joke and a lie. They need to get rid of the C of E bishops in the House of Lords and end compulsory prayer in school assemblies. And from courthouses. Make the law of the land secular like its people.

    I am not very learn about the UK’s situatuon with separation of Church and State. Sounds like it has some big issues though.
  • Posts: 15,125
    It doesn't exist that's the issue. We have a church lady as a PM and priests in bed with the monarchy and government who have far more influence than they deserve.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It doesn't exist that's the issue. We have a church lady as a PM and priests in bed with the monarchy and government who have far more influence than they deserve.

    And any time a religious loon bleats the government bows down at their feet to appease their infantile whining.

    The authorities are far too petrified of being accused of racism (despite religion having absolutely zero to do with race) to act responsibly. The Rotherham rape gangs the starkest example of the paralysis that grips the authorities when it comes to this sort of thing. How many girls were abused because of the council being far more worried about being accused of racism and Islamaphobia?
  • Posts: 12,474
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It doesn't exist that's the issue. We have a church lady as a PM and priests in bed with the monarchy and government who have far more influence than they deserve.

    Sorry to hear it. Sounds like a bigger issue there than the US. In the states we seem to be moving further and further away from religious control. It’s far from perfect but it takes time of course. Even when I was religious I supported separation of Church and State.
  • Posts: 15,125
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It doesn't exist that's the issue. We have a church lady as a PM and priests in bed with the monarchy and government who have far more influence than they deserve.

    Sorry to hear it. Sounds like a bigger issue there than the US. In the states we seem to be moving further and further away from religious control. It’s far from perfect but it takes time of course. Even when I was religious I supported separation of Church and State.

    The US has its own problems: religious wackos trying to impose Creationism in education and the religious right being far too influent politically. But there's an advantage to have true secular institutions and a truly secular state. The UK is technically a theocracy: the Queen is head of state as well as defender of the faith. And the C of E is far too powerful in spite of its irrelevance.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    I don't think we're in as bad a state as America where a person can't be elected unless they profess belief in God.

  • Posts: 12,474
    That may be true, but it doesn’t have much bearing on the people. It’s just a kind of subconscious tradition it seems like.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    That may be true, but it doesn’t have much bearing on the people. It’s just a kind of subconscious tradition it seems like.

    Well I meant that away from the two coasts your election campaign would be dead in the water of you came out as a) an atheist and b) anti guns.

This discussion has been closed.