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  • Posts: 4,617
    We have no idea what he said.
  • Posts: 15,125
    patb wrote: »
    We have no idea what he said.

    The Jesus character in the Bible, whether he said anything resembling what was said in the Gospel or not, can be assessed regarding the intrinsic value of what he allegedly said.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Personal experience is irrelevant unless it can be backed up externally and verified

    Come on! You still rely on personal experience for that.

    Not really. You rely on observable evidence.

    But you don t need to experience that evidence personally? You can rely on hearsay?

    Even hearsay needs to be experienced personally, how else would you know about it?

    I'm wondering if you're joking. No you don't rely on hearsay and you don't rely on personal experience. You rely on evidence. The Big Bang happened and no human has ever seen it, so did many volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc.

    Of course I am not joking.

    How do you know about this evidence?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Personal experience is irrelevant unless it can be backed up externally and verified

    Come on! You still rely on personal experience for that.

    Not really. You rely on observable evidence.

    But you don t need to experience that evidence personally? You can rely on hearsay?

    Even hearsay needs to be experienced personally, how else would you know about it?

    I'm wondering if you're joking. No you don't rely on hearsay and you don't rely on personal experience. You rely on evidence. The Big Bang happened and no human has ever seen it, so did many volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc.

    Of course I am not joking.

    How do you know about this evidence?

    Not through personal experience. Through observation of objective data, investigation, etc. Personal experience has nothing to do with it. That's why we can safely say that there's no Loch Ness monster even though there are people who claim, sometimes sincerely, having seen one.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Personal experience is irrelevant unless it can be backed up externally and verified

    Come on! You still rely on personal experience for that.

    Not really. You rely on observable evidence.

    But you don t need to experience that evidence personally? You can rely on hearsay?

    Even hearsay needs to be experienced personally, how else would you know about it?

    I'm wondering if you're joking. No you don't rely on hearsay and you don't rely on personal experience. You rely on evidence. The Big Bang happened and no human has ever seen it, so did many volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc.

    Of course I am not joking.

    How do you know about this evidence?

    Not through personal experience. Through observation of objective data, investigation, etc. Personal experience has nothing to do with it. That's why we can safely say that there's no Loch Ness monster even though there are people who claim, sometimes sincerely, having seen one.

    Observation of objective data is not a personal experience? Could you not be psychotic and just imagine it all? How do you know?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Personal experience is irrelevant unless it can be backed up externally and verified

    Come on! You still rely on personal experience for that.

    Not really. You rely on observable evidence.

    But you don t need to experience that evidence personally? You can rely on hearsay?

    Even hearsay needs to be experienced personally, how else would you know about it?

    I'm wondering if you're joking. No you don't rely on hearsay and you don't rely on personal experience. You rely on evidence. The Big Bang happened and no human has ever seen it, so did many volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc.

    Of course I am not joking.

    How do you know about this evidence?

    Not through personal experience. Through observation of objective data, investigation, etc. Personal experience has nothing to do with it. That's why we can safely say that there's no Loch Ness monster even though there are people who claim, sometimes sincerely, having seen one.

    Observation of objective data is not a personal experience? Could you not be psychotic and just imagine it all? How do you know?

    Actually no it is not. Oh boy now I know where this is going. Insofar as I accept reality then there's an objective physical world in which I am and you are a part of. I could be imagining it and I cannot know for sure the universe exists or even of my own physical body. But l find solipsism pretty pointless and more often than none pseudo intellectual w*nkery to be honest. And often a theist's cop out.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Some people on this thread have an axe to grind with me.
    Classic mistake of the religious - thinking things are all about them rather than accepting their own ant like insignificance in the universe. But rather disappointing attitude Draggers I have to say; surely you can distinguish between a personal attack and people simply arguing against you?
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Eventually the athiests will be talking to themselves and it seems that they now are.
    We have been for some time actually as anything we post, be it questioning the existence of God, the rights and wrongs of circumcision, the influence of the church in public life or talking snakes, is just met with a wall of silence from the religionistas or outlandish claims which they then fail to back up before sticking their heads in the sand and refusing to engage in any more debate.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I have no ax to grind with anyone here. But when someone makes extraordinary claims and says they have been proven then I'll call him on that. Draping yourself in the cloak of a martyr is a cop out and prerty much telling us that you have no evidence to back up your beliefs, which is a complete contradiction to what you asserted.

    Couldn't have written it better myself (apart from the misspelling of 'axe' of course. Chalk up a consolation goal for @Dragonpol there. You're slipping Ludovico letting the opposition get that close to you. Albeit a rather pyrrhic victory in the overall war though).
    NicNac wrote: »

    Well I think the non believers have made their points many times over, dressing them up in various shades of metaphor and analogy, and believers are generally steering clear of any further brow beating.

    Therefore we may be moved to close the thread for a while anyway. If we do I will state here and now it has nothing to do with any individual's request.

    Thanks @Dragonpol .

    Can I enquire as to the rationale behind even thinking about closing this thread?

    Could you please outline which forum rules it has broken? You seem to be insinuating above that the fact it has become repetitive is sufficient grounds? Personally I find the brain numbingly dull elimination game threads repetitive in the extreme but I would never class that as a reason for them to be closed down. I just ignore them, which the religious, non religious or people like Draggers who are just bored of the whole thing have every right to do with here.

    If the religious don't want to contribute to this thread then fine but why should the fact that people who agree are the only ones posting be reason for it's closure? We're all Bond fans on here but we don't close every thread merely because there is no one to post the counter argument 'James Bond is shit' do we?

    This thread has largely been conducted with civility and any ridicule has only been expressed where it is due and only directed at laughable beliefs not individuals.

    I really cannot see a justifiable reason to close it unless of course a 'computer glitch' intervenes?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited March 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Just to let @Ludovico off the hook on your Grammar Nazi point, I know Americans do spell axe as 'ax' ("ax-murderer" for instance) and perhaps French Canadians do as well? Call it Christian charity on my part, @TheWizardOfIce. ;)

    And just to make it crystal clear I have never suggested to a mod or any other member that this thread should be closed down. It was and indeed still is my thread and I've never been a big one for censorship unless of course something hateful or defamatory has been posted in a thread. The fact that it may make a believer of any faith uncomfortable is not a good enough reason for closing it down in my book.

    In fact, (and the mods can confirm this as I have told them more than once) that though I was personally tired of replying to this thread of mine I did not wish it to be closed down. I'm one of those who defend free speech on here and other Bond fora as much as the next member.

    Back to radio silence for now...
  • Posts: 15,125
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    We're going to disappear down a rabbit hole with this thread soon enough. Which, come to think of it, might not be a bad place to end up.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    No one here claimed it doesn t .
  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    No one here claimed it doesn t .

    Of course not: like I said you used solipsism as a cop out. May I ask what you believe in and why?

    @Dragonpol my previous comment was not answering yours (I was typing it as you posted).
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    No one here claimed it doesn t .

    Of course not: like I said you used solipsism as a cop out. May I ask what you believe in and why?

    @Dragonpol my previous comment was not answering yours (I was typing it as you posted).

    Oh, I knew that from the content of your post. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on English versus American/Canadian grammar.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited March 2018 Posts: 7,582
    Fair enough folk. The general consensus amongst mods is to let the thread carry on anyway. And To reiterate Draggers comment above- he made no request to close it.

    Carry on as you wish.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    No one here claimed it doesn t .

    Of course not: like I said you used solipsism as a cop out.

    You are making assumptions, and the cop out is yours.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    What you mean is you trust your own senses and experiences, but not those of others unless they align with your own.

    That's completely fallacious. I trust my own sense to a degree: I know I can be deluded or mislead. But I'll take for granted that the world and reality exists.

    No one here claimed it doesn t .

    Of course not: like I said you used solipsism as a cop out.

    You are making assumptions, and the cop out is yours.

    "Tu quoque" now? Please enlighten me as what you mean then if I misunderstood you. I'm not the one who came up with solipsism.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Taking us back on track, something I find interesting (and tragic) is that, as an atheist, I am constantly seeing examples of the "unfairness" of the universe. Now, its interesting that fairness is basically a man made concept (or God made). There is nothing in the Galaxy, no Newton Law of Fairness etc, it's something that we would like and we have evolved complex systems within our societies and government in an attempt to bring fairness into our World.

    But, all the time, almost every day, I see tragic examples of life being unfair and unjust. This does not shock me. As an atheist, I know that we all roll the dice and sh#t happens. But, when I discover these, I am constantly shocked at how or why those of faith seem to just shrug their shoulders. I know we have dealt with this concept before but life is constantly throwing up new, fresh and twisted examples: new ammunition that we can put in front of those of faith and, fairly, ask for an explanation. The more this happens and the greater the silence from the faith side, the stronger my anger than grown ups can continue to worship the "sky fairy" who is dishing out this unfainess not only in large ammounts but under circumstances where it seems as if good people are targeted.

    Stay with me as I give the latest example:

    Last night on Channel 4, they had a celebrity bake off show in aid on cancer research. A great cause (we will overlook for now the fact that God created cancer). One of the celebs was Bill Turnbull, the BBC Newsreader. So how does God reward Bill for his great charity work?

    Well. after the filming of the show, he is diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer himself!! This is not only unfair but has a twisted, bitter irony about it. How can any decent God do this? Anyone with a questioning/working/functioning brain would ask this question and look for answers. How can those of faith just shrug their shoulders and move on?

    In a few days there will be more examples of the unfairness of life and more shrugged shoulders from those who simply can't give any explanation as to the motivations of the sky fairy who, don't forget, still still loves us. He loves us.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »

    Last night on Channel 4, they had a celebrity bake off show in aid on cancer research. A great cause (we will overlook for now the fact that God created cancer). One of the celebs was Bill Turnbull, the BBC Newsreader. So how does God reward Bill for his great charity work?

    Well. after the filming of the show, he is diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer himself!! This is not only unfair but has a twisted, bitter irony about it. How can any decent God do this? Anyone with a questioning/working/functioning brain would ask this question and look for answers. How can those of faith just shrug their shoulders and move on?

    Come on mate that's basic stuff. It's all part of his great plan and our tiny brains can't fathom his brilliance.

    He's probably rewarding Bill for his good work by letting him join Him in heaven earlier. Never mind the pain caused to Bill's family or the suffering he will go through just as long as God can have him sat with him in heaven that's all that matters.

    Perhaps he invented cancer and then gave us intelligent minds so we might eventually cure it like a brain teaser so that when we do finally beat cancer we'll feel good about ourselves? It's just a cosmic version of sudoku. Bit of a shame for all the poor sods who died of it of course but God knows what he's doing. I'm certain of that.
    patb wrote: »
    In a few days there will be more examples of the unfairness of life and more shrugged shoulders from those who simply can't give any explanation as to the motivations of the sky fairy who, don't forget, still still loves us. He loves us.

    The silence from the religionistas in this thread is deafening. Any time any of you want to come here and defend the all loving God and his brilliant designs feel free.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I wouldn't call Jesus the greatest teacher of mankind. A philosopher maybe, a cult leader certainly, a legendary figure too. But some of the things he said were at best morally dubious.

    So you at least concede that Jesus was a real, living man then? That's always a starting point.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I wouldn't call Jesus the greatest teacher of mankind. A philosopher maybe, a cult leader certainly, a legendary figure too. But some of the things he said were at best morally dubious.

    So you at least concede that Jesus was a real, living man then? That's always a starting point.

    I think it's very probable that there was a man Jesus or a small number of Jewish sect leaders that were the basis for the Jesus character as depicted in the Bible. However: 1)I wouldn't put a bet on it given the rather poor evidence and 2)that is in no way an acceptance of the Biblical claims about him.

    And I will go even further: even IF (and that is a gigantic if of cosmic proportions) everything said about him in the Bible was 100% true (which would be impossible as even the Gospels are inconsistent), then whether or not Jesus is worthy of worship or even admiration and reverence is debatable.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 4,617
    Jesus was a very popular during that period so I would be more surprised if there was not a man called Jesus. It's interesting that God chose such a boring name considering how much attention he would get. It's like sending his second son down today and calling him "Kevin".
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I wouldn't call Jesus the greatest teacher of mankind. A philosopher maybe, a cult leader certainly, a legendary figure too. But some of the things he said were at best morally dubious.

    So you at least concede that Jesus was a real, living man then? That's always a starting point.

    If you're insinuating that acceptance of a bloke called Jesus existing is a starting point for your alleged proof of the existence of God that's in the bible then the floor is yours.

    But as starting points go it's like signing up to crawl to the South Pole and you agree to set off from Doncaster.

    You've got a long, long way to go.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I wouldn't call Jesus the greatest teacher of mankind. A philosopher maybe, a cult leader certainly, a legendary figure too. But some of the things he said were at best morally dubious.

    So you at least concede that Jesus was a real, living man then? That's always a starting point.

    I think it's very probable that there was a man Jesus or a small number of Jewish sect leaders that were the basis for the Jesus character as depicted in the Bible. However: 1)I wouldn't put a bet on it given the rather poor evidence and 2)that is in no way an acceptance of the Biblical claims about him.

    And I will go even further: even IF (and that is a gigantic if of cosmic proportions) everything said about him in the Bible was 100% true (which would be impossible as even the Gospels are inconsistent), then whether or not Jesus is worthy of worship or even admiration and reverence is debatable.
    And even when you can bring yourself to say Jesus is an all round good egg that doesn't necessarily prove the existence of God and it certainly doesn't excuse God from baby cancer etc.
  • Posts: 4,617
    I guy called Kevin exists who some claim to be the second son of God. I have proof that a guy called Kevin exists: therefore he is the son of God QED
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    I guy called Kevin exists who some claim to be the second son of God. I have proof that a guy called Kevin exists: therefore he is the son of God QED

    Will do for me son.

    You see Draggers it's that easy to prove.
  • Posts: 15,125
    If God wanted Jesus to be properly identified as the Messiah he should have called him (or ordered to call him) Emmanuel. So there'd be no or at least less ambiguity.

    @TheWizardOfIce True, even if every single miracle of the Bible was true it wouldn't prove that God exists. Even parthenogenesis is theoretically possible in the natural world. And yes even if God existed that does not make him worthy of worship. So even if Jesus died on the cross and resurrected so what? He had one lousy afternoon to pay for a crime I did not commit so I can avoid a punishment I never deserved in the first place.
  • Posts: 628
    I've been looking at the last few pages of this thread and shaking my head. One has to wonder about atheists who choose a Bond forum -- of all places -- to smugly belittle people of faith and to continue to do so even after their targets say "Let's agree to disagree" and leave the thread.

    You think that maybe these charming personalities are overcompensating for something? "Ant-like significance," indeed.
  • Posts: 12,474
    patb wrote: »
    Taking us back on track, something I find interesting (and tragic) is that, as an atheist, I am constantly seeing examples of the "unfairness" of the universe. Now, its interesting that fairness is basically a man made concept (or God made). There is nothing in the Galaxy, no Newton Law of Fairness etc, it's something that we would like and we have evolved complex systems within our societies and government in an attempt to bring fairness into our World.

    But, all the time, almost every day, I see tragic examples of life being unfair and unjust. This does not shock me. As an atheist, I know that we all roll the dice and sh#t happens. But, when I discover these, I am constantly shocked at how or why those of faith seem to just shrug their shoulders. I know we have dealt with this concept before but life is constantly throwing up new, fresh and twisted examples: new ammunition that we can put in front of those of faith and, fairly, ask for an explanation. The more this happens and the greater the silence from the faith side, the stronger my anger than grown ups can continue to worship the "sky fairy" who is dishing out this unfainess not only in large ammounts but under circumstances where it seems as if good people are targeted.

    Stay with me as I give the latest example:

    Last night on Channel 4, they had a celebrity bake off show in aid on cancer research. A great cause (we will overlook for now the fact that God created cancer). One of the celebs was Bill Turnbull, the BBC Newsreader. So how does God reward Bill for his great charity work?

    Well. after the filming of the show, he is diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer himself!! This is not only unfair but has a twisted, bitter irony about it. How can any decent God do this? Anyone with a questioning/working/functioning brain would ask this question and look for answers. How can those of faith just shrug their shoulders and move on?

    In a few days there will be more examples of the unfairness of life and more shrugged shoulders from those who simply can't give any explanation as to the motivations of the sky fairy who, don't forget, still still loves us. He loves us.

    Being an agnostic, if God is real, I wouldn’t say God “did this” to Bill. I think anything good or bad can happen to someone without any force of God, if He/it is there. It is cruel irony, and the world is full of it. One of many major reasons I quit the faith is because of how horrendous our world can be. If God loved everyone, I don’t even see how or why we would have cancer. Wouldn’t a loving God prevent that?

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    FoxRox wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Taking us back on track, something I find interesting (and tragic) is that, as an atheist, I am constantly seeing examples of the "unfairness" of the universe. Now, its interesting that fairness is basically a man made concept (or God made). There is nothing in the Galaxy, no Newton Law of Fairness etc, it's something that we would like and we have evolved complex systems within our societies and government in an attempt to bring fairness into our World.

    But, all the time, almost every day, I see tragic examples of life being unfair and unjust. This does not shock me. As an atheist, I know that we all roll the dice and sh#t happens. But, when I discover these, I am constantly shocked at how or why those of faith seem to just shrug their shoulders. I know we have dealt with this concept before but life is constantly throwing up new, fresh and twisted examples: new ammunition that we can put in front of those of faith and, fairly, ask for an explanation. The more this happens and the greater the silence from the faith side, the stronger my anger than grown ups can continue to worship the "sky fairy" who is dishing out this unfainess not only in large ammounts but under circumstances where it seems as if good people are targeted.

    Stay with me as I give the latest example:

    Last night on Channel 4, they had a celebrity bake off show in aid on cancer research. A great cause (we will overlook for now the fact that God created cancer). One of the celebs was Bill Turnbull, the BBC Newsreader. So how does God reward Bill for his great charity work?

    Well. after the filming of the show, he is diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer himself!! This is not only unfair but has a twisted, bitter irony about it. How can any decent God do this? Anyone with a questioning/working/functioning brain would ask this question and look for answers. How can those of faith just shrug their shoulders and move on?

    In a few days there will be more examples of the unfairness of life and more shrugged shoulders from those who simply can't give any explanation as to the motivations of the sky fairy who, don't forget, still still loves us. He loves us.

    Being an agnostic, if God is real, I wouldn’t say God “did this” to Bill. I think anything good or bad can happen to someone without any force of God, if He/it is there. It is cruel irony, and the world is full of it. One of many major reasons I quit the faith is because of how horrendous our world can be. If God loved everyone, I don’t even see how or why we would have cancer. Wouldn’t a loving God prevent that?

    Why just cancer? Why can't we all survive all diseases and live forever?

    And if we did, and the Earth was overpopulated (as it would be) then I'm sure this thread would be about the bad design of the tiny Earth by God in the first place.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    I've been looking at the last few pages of this thread and shaking my head. One has to wonder about atheists who choose a Bond forum -- of all places -- to smugly belittle people of faith and to continue to do so even after their targets say "Let's agree to disagree" and leave the thread.

    You think that maybe these charming personalities are overcompensating for something? "Ant-like significance," indeed.

    @Escalus5 you do understand that this thread was created by a theist not an atheist and in the very title it says unbelievers are welcomed.

    Now where did we belittle anyone? Some Christians here made some extraordinary claims. When we call them on it they refused to give an answer to back up said claims or added more extraordinary claims.It's not our fault is someone cannot justify his faith or cannot answer for the inconsistencies, contradictions and absurdities of his beliefs.

    And there are plenty of non Bond topics in this forum: presidential elections, football, what have you. Instead of sneakily asking us to shut up (and by the way I won't shut up on such topic), I suggest you should try to explain why we are wrong and what you believe in and why.
This discussion has been closed.