The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,622
    @pab you prove my point about not having understanding, of what you are not interested in.
    You really think God created disease, as an item on a check list. ok fine.
    If that question truly nags at you, find someone in the real world, that might take time to discuss, the answer with you.
    That would be the responsible thing to do.
    If you don't want to get off the keyboard, there is probably a Christian message board out there, where someone far more patient than I might indulge your query.
    In the meantime the question is not remotely Interesting or challenging.
    I think the answer should be self-evident with even the most cursory of enquiries, assuming one is actually interested in the answer to the question.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Wulffmorgenthaler_fbaeca_1574129.gif
  • Posts: 4,617
    "If that question truly nags at you, find someone in the real world,"

    You are in the real world (I hope so anyway!), we are communicating via the WWW which is also real, so don't let the mode of communication prevent you from offering an answer. I'm not self centred enough to think that I'm not the only one interested in the answer.

    Im happy to return the favour and try to answer any question you have re atheism
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Read the book of Job. Being a Christian isn't an easy life!
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    Just revisiting the Christopher Eccleston series of Doctor Who, and this line stood out to me: "You're happy to believe in something that's invisible, but if it's staring you in the face, nope, can't see it. There's a scientific explanation for that. You're thick."


    Disclaimer: not aimed at anyone on here, just thought it amusing (seriously, this is such a good series of Who, makes me despair at the current state of the show).
  • Posts: 4,622
    patb wrote: »
    "If that question truly nags at you, find someone in the real world,"

    You are in the real world (I hope so anyway!), we are communicating via the WWW which is also real, so don't let the mode of communication prevent you from offering an answer. I'm not self centred enough to think that I'm not the only one interested in the answer.

    Im happy to return the favour and try to answer any question you have re atheism

    No, this is cyberworld. In cyberworld you can Google the answer to such things. I am sure there are no shortage of websites with answers to such questions, but I honestly don't think the answer actually interests you.
    However, if you really want to pin that down, a good discussion with a local minister would probably do the job. Clergy are authorities on such matters. It is their vocation. It is their job to facilitate such enquiries.
    You could have a good back-and-forth.
    The actual real world human interaction, would also foster an atmosphere of civility I think, kind of the way Clint Eastwood's character used to jabber with the priest in the Million Dollar Baby film.
    You would get your answers and Minister would achieve some first- hand insight into the enquiring atheist mind.
    He might even serve tea and biscuits.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    timmer wrote: »
    ...If that question truly nags at you, find someone in the real world, that might take time to discuss, the answer with you.
    That would be the responsible thing to do.
    @timmer, your suggestion reminded me of classic Fleming, fueled by his own experiences. Via Mathis.
    'Surround yourself with human beings, my dear James. They are easier to fight for than principles.'
    He laughed. 'But don't let me down and become human, yourself. We would lose such a wonderful machine.'
    With a wave of the hand he shut the door.
    'Hey,' shouted Bond.
    But the footsteps went quickly off down the passage.
    pixabay-bb4b3ec89d2d4550.png
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Leiter pulls the same trick on a hospitalised Bond near the end of TMWTGG too.
  • Posts: 4,617
    "He might even serve tea and biscuits."

    Been there and got the T shirt, been on 2 Alpha Courses (plus other debates held by the Church). I got tea, biscuits...and even home made Sheperds Pie once1...but no answers. Just the same evasive stuff that you are giving out.

    And this is interesting. Science is often criticised for not having all of the the answers. But science is open about its ignorance. And thats how it should be.

    But ask someone of faith why God created cancer and you just get stuff like "I dont think the answer actually interests you"

    Well if someone askes a question, its a pretty good clue that they are interested in the answer.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,281
    Maybe God didn't create cancer? He did create the doctors or at least give them the appropriate brain matter to become doctors to cure cancer and other diseases. That's how I look at it anyway. It's not much, but there you are. Not everything in life has a clear cut and dried answer, I'm afraid. You could say why do we get the common cold, or why do we have to work, why do we feel pain? Why are some people rich and some poor? Who knows!

    There's plenty of questions if you start to think that way. Not sure that's its the most constructive way to look at life, but anyway. Life is what it is, we can all only strive to make things better in our own small way.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,617
    Thats a fair observation. Maybe God did not create cancer.

    So lets expore that route. If God did exist, then cancer came from some other source. So God is not responsible for some things (including cancer) so we look around the World and try to construct 2 lists. One for things created by God and one for things not created by God.

    The other option is God does not exist and, by default, he cant have invented cancer bacause he cant invent anything (the most likely option IMHO).

    This also leads to the next question. If God is all powerful, why does he watch with no interest as around 8 million people die per year? If one human had the power to cure one person, they would do it (we see something close re donating organs), but God sits on his backside and does nothing,.

    Leaving us mortals to use...guess what...science to find a cure.



  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Well if everyone from the first syallable of recorded time were still alive in 2017 and no-one ever died where would the space be for anything else? Dying is a part of living.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,617
    so God realised the World would fill up prtty quickly so he had a problem. The obvious choice would just be to put a use by date and that would be that (Blade Runner) and we fall into a peacefull, painfree sleep.

    No, far too obvious. So he creates a vast range of horrible deseases that not only kill us but do so with dreadful levels of pain. Many of which effect babies before they have even had a chance.

    And if its God's plan for us to die from these deseases, why are we spending so much time and resources (via science) to eradicate these deseases? He must have been annoyed when we eradicated smallpox?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I think it all comes down to freewill. Explains a lot.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Admittedly my previous two or so posts here were pretty lengthy, but I'm surprised to find very few if any attempts at all to counter the points I made in those. Then again, we're all debating different things here. The church, the reality of god, the desire to believe, ...

    But I'm about to give up on this thread. Not because I'm suddenly convinced I have no more arguments to throw in the mix, but because the matter will not be settled for another hundred years and more.

    Some of us want to believe in what doesn't exist and just won't let go, drawing strength from dogmas imprinted on the brain like footprints in dried cement. And some of us prefer to keep a rational mind on things, trusting only their senses and empirical data, shivering at the thought that people can still, in this day and age, so willingly delude themselves. Religion is a stubborn thing, perhaps the epitome of stubbornness, and like a virus, it spreads, it mutates, and then it spreads further. Like my religious opponents here "know" they are right, I too know that I am right. They bring un-testable "truths" to the game, I hide behind testable ones. We're not even using the same tools in this debate, so what's the point.

    What keeps me comfort is that in my country, the number of people choosing a secular life continues to rise, and the number of people going to church continues to dwindle. This trend is true for most first world countries it seems, with the USA being among the curious exceptions, although there too, it appears, something of a decline in religious supporters seems to have started presenting itself. Steady or not, a decline in religious followers almost everywhere except in certain developing countries may be a good thing. Although... people will always find something.

    Because it's in our nature that we want to believe, and only a minor few can detach themselves the way Wiz, patb, ludovico, ... and of course myself can.

    Religion-is-like-a-Penis.-its-fine-to-have-one.-its-fine-to-be-proud-of-it.-but-please-dont-whip-around-in-public-start-waving-it-around.-And-please-dont-try-to-....jpeg
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    That's offensive, @DarthDimi. You must have some idea for that on a forum like this.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited July 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Maybe God didn't create cancer?

    A staggeringly new low for religious logic surely?

    No need to reiterate what @patb has already said. The house of cards has just collapsed and this thread is over.
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    He did create the doctors or at least give them the appropriate brain matter to become doctors to cure cancer and other diseases.

    Except we can't cure cancer can we. So not only does he lack the omnipotence to create everything in the universe he is also powerless to give us the ability to stop this mysterious 'cancer' that has sprung out of the ether while his back was turned designing butterflies and rainbows and all the other nice stuff.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    I am seeing meltdown. Maybe not the same one you're seeing.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Well this is the melting pot.
  • Posts: 4,622
    The answer to @patb question is simple.
    Disease, male pattern baldness, pimples, is consistent with the notion of "the fallen world." ie everything dies.
    You can Google that, or discuss with Minister over tea.
    And no, people that ask questions, especially in cyberspace, very often don't want the answer.
    Google "baiting".
    Skip over the links re buckets of worms and minnows though.

    =====I have a solution to the message boards, right-off-the-rails political and so-called religious discussions .
    As we did way back when, have every one register their political and religious leanings with the board.
    For politics I would suggest three categories.
    1 right wing
    2 middle
    3 left wing

    For religion
    1 Judeo Christian
    2. Agnostic-atheist
    3 Muslim
    4. Other

    I would include Judaism with Christianity as the Old Testament forms the foundation for Christianity. The early Christians were all Jews.

    Threads could be opened for each category, but only those registered with the category could participate.
    eg I would register as Right Wing and Catholic-Christian.
    I could only contribute in those threads. Those would be the only categories that would interest me.
    If I wanted to, I could read the others, but would have to stay out of their faces.
    In this way constructive discussions could be had among like-minded Bond fans.
    @dimi tried to do this with American politics threads, but it didn't work, as one side couldn't restrain from crossing over and derailing the other.
    As there is a fundamental disconnect between atheists & Christians and Lefties & Righties in cyberspace, if not so much in the real world, where in the interest of civility, actual human interactions generally preclude heated discussions, baiting, etc

    ie only a real asshole blunders into a social setting, or worse a work setting, and starts spewing their politics or religious beliefs

    I suspect the Christian thread would be fairly quiet as my sense is that the Christians on this board would rather talk Bond.
    Faith discussions can be held within their communities for example, but the thread is there if desired.
    If Buddists for example objected to Klingons in their space ( we have had registered Klingons here) we could expand the categories. Same with a separate Judaism category if desired.

    @Thunderfinger could have blanket access to post his cartoons but would have to register for comments, like everyone else.

    I volunteer to moderate ie enforce authorized registered participation.
    I promise in advance, not to be too much of a dick.

    Yours humbly
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,617
    remarkable....perhaps we could each create our own thread that was specific to our own ideas/beleifs? That way, we could all guarantee that we would never expose ourselves to anything new, challenging, thoughful etc,

    Even better, just withdraw from all human interation and , that way, you can live in your own perfect World.
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,622
    That's offensive, @DarthDimi. You must have some idea for that on a forum like this.

    With both politics and religion, civility takes a beating, especially in cyberspace. Damn, I may even be double-postingt here, unless @Thunderfinger can sneak a cartoon in-between.

    Edit I still love @dimi. He is a mod

    Re Bond Mathis comparison. That is there I guess.Good catch!
    Mathis knew of what he spoke. Get out and smell the air.
    There is not only far more to reality, than what we can see, but also far more to human life than keyboard stroking.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    JAMES BOND RELIGION AND FAITH DISCUSSION WILL RETURN...

    9100ed3677e27e6e83397270fd6769a5-w204@1x.jpg51-GHdT-0YL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_.jpg51PlZDRxYrL._AC_US218_.jpg
  • Posts: 4,622
    I've got the middle book, referenced earlier.
    The bottom one looks spooky.
    We can get @dimi the first one for Winter Solstice.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I think I have all of them. Read some of the middle one. My kind of thing.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    I have the first two. That third one is a new discovery. If I pick it up cheap it might be entertaining, but so far I'm not "buying it".
  • Posts: 4,622
    patb wrote: »
    remarkable....perhaps we could each create our own thread that was specific to our own ideas/beleifs? That way, we could all guarantee that we would never expose ourselves to anything new, challenging, thoughful etc,

    Even better, just withdraw from all human interation and , that way, you can live in your own perfect World.

    There is something to be said for civility and constructive discussion.
    Don't worry the whole board would still have access to the atheist back-and-forth.
    You can still go hog-wild.
    I'm fully aware you like to jump at every opportunity to blast away at gasp, those who don't share your beliefs, gasp, in a world of 6 billion, no less.
    Do get out and talk to that Minister though.
    I know you really want that answer.
    Here I will even phrase the question for you so he can't dodge.

    " Why does God allow cancer to be in the world?"

    Simple focused questions usually get better answers.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. Never my intention. And I still love you all. Let me buy you all a drink and let's talk about something more pleasant. Like snooker. Or boobies. :-)
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    patb wrote: »

    On another topic, I have heard a million times that God loves us...but not heard one explanation as to why he felt it neccesary to create little wonders of the World such as cancer, malaria, Earthquakes, TB, etc etc What a creative, imaginary and wonderful guy he is.

    Come on mate that's basic stuff - he just does that to test your faith.
    If he gives your baby leukaemia so it dies but you still worship him rather than screaming 'How can there be a God if he lets things like this happen?' then youve passed and will be rewarded in heaven (obviously bit of a bummer for the kid who never gets the option to show his devotion to God). But if you do scream 'There is no God' he sends down a tsunam to drown you as punishment.

    But he loves you and is all merciful remember.

    And people snigger when Islam claims to be the religion of peace? Compared to God's planet wide psychosis, ISIS look like Mother Teresa.

    @TheWizardOfIce, reminds me of the story of Job. A nice fellow who never had a bad word to say about anyone, who lived peacefully with his family and treated his neighbor with warmth and compassion; a real God's boy, you could say. A guy named Satan rolls around the bar in the clouds one day, orders God a round and, a little tipsy, God starts bragging about how great his creation Job is. Satan then bets a full payment of the tab that, if God let him screw with Job, Job would turn on God and forsake his faith. And so what does this almighty, morally sound savior of peace do? He lets the evil forces do their work on an innocent man as his livelihood and ability to support himself are robbed and his close family and servants are killed. God's only stipulation to Satan is that Job must not be killed himself, an act that would actually be more just and understanding than the f*cked up mind game he allows his rival from below to create for the man who represented the best of his creations.

    Job is constantly told by those around him that all these sorrowful things are happening to him because he did something bad, and he really needs to fear his God more to appreciate his power. If God makes you sick, he's trying to make you appreciate all the days when he makes you well. Of course long story short Job makes it through the ordeal and in a supreme act of love God gives him some property and kids (he could've just given him back the original kids he allowed to be unjustly murdered, but even the almighty is imperfect I guess), but is this jackass really the spirit of justice, righteousness and goodness we should live for and abide by?

    Who is to say that all these centuries later God won't cherry pick another good man of the faith (like @Dragonpol for example) and go for round two with Satan over an even bigger bar tab of high proof wine (that isn't the blood of Jesus, incidentally) to prove that, even long after Job's death, his creations can still remain loyal? Poor Draggers will be the undeserving target of a series of sorrows: his car will break down on the way to work and his boss will sack him for tardiness, he'll get permanent pimples all over his face, making all women turn away from him in disgust as they refuse to lay with him, his Bond blog will be taken down by EON for copyright infringement, tarnishing his creative energies and, worst of all, he'll be randomly banned from the MI6 Community and never allowed to enter again. These punishments will be unearned, but God expects his boy scout creation to stay by his side through all the pain and sorrow with a smile on his face and faith in his mind.

    I don't know about you, but that sounds like a raw deal. This God definitely seems like the same power-hungry, egotistical type that would create cancer, natural disasters and some sadistic bad egg creations (consisting mostly of radical terrorists, Uwe Boll fans and third wave wacky feminists) to test our ability to trust in him. If he kills a few kids with leukemia and puts millions more in poverty as a test of your faith, you better not have the audacity to challenge his almighty foresight and wisdom by stating the immorality of his completely justified act as master of matter and the universe.

    In the end only one thing makes sense: either there is no God (I think I'd bet my life on this one, but I understand that gambling is a sin and I don't want to set off "you know who") or he (why do we refer to him as strictly male, by the way?) created us and then proceeded to abandon us, explaining why we do evil things with no supreme being to help us see the light and guide us to the salvation of our better selves. Is the latter option really all that sunny for the religious folks? Either God is real and he's just about the cruelest and unholiest holy being ever, or he abandoned all of us after he screwed up his big experiment and didn't even have the respect and empathy to drown us all mercifully like he did around Noah's time.

    Seems like a sketchy bastard to me.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited July 2017 Posts: 18,281
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I'm sorry if I have offended anyone. Never my intention. And I still love you all. Let me buy you all a drink and let's talk about something more pleasant. Like snooker. Or boobies. :-)

    Oh, no. We're too religious for that now. Down with that sort of thing.
This discussion has been closed.