The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • Posts: 15,125
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    At least I just limit things to having no respect rather than thinking people should all be killed or burn in hell for eternity. I'm a cuddly teddy bear to the average religonutter.

    Yes, because clearly all people of faith -- those billions who are beneath your contempt -- carry the belief that others who don't follow their doctrine should burn in hell.

    You must be a big hit at parties.

    That's not what @TheWizardOfIce said. But of course it's easier to build a strawman. And of course the Bible (among other holy books) condemns unbelievers to hell BECAUSE they are unbelievers. Whatever the personally held belief of a specific Christian.

    But tell us @Escalus5 what do you believe in and why? You're so eager to defend people of faith I am curious to know where you stand on such topic.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    NicNac wrote: »
    Oh man, when Hawking says ‘time didn’t exist before the big bang’ I’m with the vast majority who want to say ‘well what was there then? There must have been something ‘ but darent day it in case it sounds stupid.

    We do know that every effect has a cause, just as every cause has an effect. It is people s perception of time that is flawed.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Actually, @Escalus5, @TheWizardOfIce really is a big hit at parties. ;)

    Oh and "those billions"? You don't belong to "those billions", friend. Because those billions don't exactly get along. It's easier for a Muslim family to live and practice their religion amidst atheists than it is for them to live amidst Christians or Jews. I always have to laugh when religious people talk about "us" versus the atheist crowd. You don't have to worry about the atheist crowd. We don't pick a fight, burn or decapitate people or put magic spells on you. The "religious" form a far more disjointed mix than any other "community" of people. Put yourself in a room full of atheists, and people will probably leave you alone. Put yourself in a room full of Muslims, and I challenge you to get out unscathed. If I put myself in a room full of conservative Christians, I mightn't get out unscathed either. You see, atheists aren't the ones bringing their unproven "truths-to-die-for" to the game. Most of the time we simply don't care. Until challenged, e.g. in this thread, we're more or less happy to live and let live.

    When you talk about "those billions", you might as well be talking about sand pebbles, raindrops and beetles. You can collect billions of them indeed, but there's no cohesion, friendship or respect whatsoever. Us, atheists, are far more united. We don't put our faith in anything supernatural. "Those billions" do, except that they disagree about almost every single detail, which leaves their group in shambles much more than ours.

    Oh, and you're right. Not every man or woman of faith carries the belief that others who don't follow their doctrine should burn in hell. But, alas, many among them do and some of those pack some heavy guns and shoot the place up. I haven't heard of too many atheists feeling the need to do so. So you can get angry at the exaggeration alright, but it is still closer to the truth than when you turn the tables and call us the haters.

    Let me make another demonstration. This thread has been going quite well for 63 pages. Occasionally, someone drops a "That's it, I'm out, this thread is abysmal, I've said all I have to say, ..." sentiment. Pay close attention please to who those "angry quitters" are. Not the atheists, for sure. We're just here, you know, @Ludovico, @TheWizardOfIce, @patb, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, myself, and others, occasionally, to pick up some astonishing wild ideas, reason against them and wait for the next good laugh. It's not us who get emotional, who take these things far too seriously, who rather run than continue what I call a fruitful debate. That, to me, proves, that some--I hope you appreciate my nuance--religious people still haven't lost that ancient "holy fire" burning inside them, that restlessness associated with an irrational belief in something unnatural; the frustration that develops in response to having nothing to work with other than "but it's what I belieeeeeeve!!!" and the knowledge that science keeps making progress, keeps rendering the god-concept more and more obsolete and there's nothing that can be done about that except burn down laboratories and such. But then aggression truly is a sign of accepting one's inferiority.

    Lastly, yes, there are billions on this planet who would call themselves religious folks. Billions indeed. There are also billions on this planet without a decent education, to no fault of their own I might add. And while I'm not accusing someone who grew up in poor conditions and never got a chance to go to school for not being able to apply advanced scientific models to their view of the cosmos, I trust you are aware that atheism thrives among the higher educated, whereas religion thrives, on average--again, I hope you will appreciate the nuance--among the less educated. There's a link, you see, and it is to be expected that if formal education, totally free from religious infusion, would reach more people on this planet, religion would plummet down fast. There are forces at work which keep religion alive. I'm not necessarily implying conspiracies; merely circumstances, such as poverty, political situations and more. If every person on this planet could go to a free-spirited college and study hard for many years, it's likely religion would be rendered all but extinct within one or two generations. Some deep-thinking religious folks would no doubt still be around, and I'm sure few of us would mind. I'm not exactly equating religion to a lack of intelligence or something similar. But some statistical correlation seems to exist...

    Either way, I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. The worst that is to be expected from us, atheists, is a bit of scoffing, maybe indeed a lack of respect. That is still far better than total aggression. And while you, @Escalus5, are correct in that not every single one of "those billions" are violent aggressors, you will, I'm afraid, have to concede that quite a few are. Atheists don't burn down churches, religious madmen burn down embassies. Over a cartoon I might add. Atheists don't decapitate "infidels", religious nutters do, and they televise it. Atheists don't destroy cinemas for showing gay relationships on film, well, you know the rest, don't you... We make fun, we are possibly disrespectful. But that's the worst atheists are known to do. We prefer to keep this an intellectual fight. I'm sorry if some lack the tools to participate and resort to other, less civilised means...
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,402
    NicNac wrote: »
    Oh man, when Hawking says ‘time didn’t exist before the big bang’ I’m with the vast majority who want to say ‘well what was there then? There must have been something ‘ but darent day it in case it sounds stupid.

    We do know that every effect has a cause, just as every cause has an effect. It is people s perception of time that is flawed.

    What is the correct perception then. Science was never my strong point.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Time is motion.
  • Posts: 4,617
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43406040

    Ending his evidence, he repeated his apology to survivors, saying he "grieved for the loss of access to faith that this has often resulted in".

    Just take in the implications of the last statement. So its "their loss" that the survivors can no longer have faith. And he grieves over that. Oh, it's so sad they will never have faith again. Patronising and way off target re the real issues. Self centred as usual. No realisation or consideration that the victims maybe better off out of the CoE.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.
  • Posts: 628
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Put yourself in a room full of atheists, and people will probably leave you alone.

    Actually, it's been my experience that atheists (not all, but many) are always the first to announce their worldview to anyone who will listen. Blind faith is stupid, anyone who practices a religion should be labeled an idiot, et cetera, ad nauseam, big yawn. Which is basically what you've been doing in this thread along with your stooges.

    The funny thing is, I'm actually a skeptic and have agreed with some of your points. I just can't stand bullies, and I despise smug narcissists, so I felt inclined to come in here to defend Dragonpol.

    Carry on.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.

    There were no money before the big bang, then. Is this verified?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.

    There were no money before the big bang, then. Is this verified?

    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    But who paid for it? Surely it was expensive, with all that energy?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,402
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.

    There were no money before the big bang, then. Is this verified?

    There was but you couldn't buy anything with it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    But who paid for it? Surely it was expensive, with all that energy?

    The Kremlin and the Vatican spilt it between them. They have both always existed.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.

    There were no money before the big bang, then. Is this verified?

    There was but you couldn't buy anything with it.

    The real reason for the big bang.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited March 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Time is motion.

    No, time is money.

    There were no money before the big bang, then. Is this verified?

    There was but you couldn't buy anything with it.

    The real reason for the big bang.

    The tills just exploded. In fact, it's actually the origin of the phrase, 'Money makes the world go round'.
  • Posts: 15,125
    @Escalus5 What would you prefer? That us godless heathens shut up, here and elsewhere? And since you say we're bullies, care to exemplify? When and where?

    We've expressed our opinions openly, we defended them with arguments, we called on whoever made a claim about God. That's actually proper scepticism.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited March 2018 Posts: 4,023
    RC7 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Perfect example of how a child, just asking basic questions, can undermine thousands of years of fairy worship:


    Amazing how children can cut through all the bullshit, that apparently millions of adults cannot.

    You’re aware this is a scripted comedy TV show?

    I am aware yes. But it's a pretty accurate example of children's logic regarding God.

    I had loads of questions as a child about God, Jesus & all that which I never seemed to get answered satisfactorily. Probably why I've been an atheist since I was about 8 years old. Too many questions, not enough answers.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 628
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Escalus5 What would you prefer? That us godless heathens shut up, here and elsewhere?

    Of course not. But it certainly wouldn't hurt your cause if you expressed your opinions in a less condescending and obnoxious tone.

    Go back and look at the contributions from bondjames. He's an atheist (I assume), but he has an empathetic approach to other views, and he's persuasive because he doesn't act like an a**hole, but like a gentleman.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @Escalus5 What would you prefer? That us godless heathens shut up, here and elsewhere?

    Of course not. But it certainly wouldn't hurt your cause if you expressed your opinions in a less condescending and obnoxious tone.

    Go back and look at the contributions from bondjames. He's an atheist (I assume), but he has an empathetic approach to other views, and he's persuasive because he doesn't act like an a**hole, but like a gentleman.

    I would have called bondjames an atheist (soft) but from his most recent interventions here I am not so sure. He could be an agnostic deist just as easily. In any case that's beside the point: what matters is the intrinsic quality of an argument and I was not shy of refuting arguments from him and others when they were poor (appeals to popularity, refusal to define the word God, etc.). A tone, that's pretty vague. And people making unsubstantiated claims don't give them some kind of immunity because it's a religious claims.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 4,617
    It's interesting. History is littered with religious wars. How many have died in "my God's better than your God" disputes and we still see them going on with AK-47s reached for when anyone draws the wrong cartoon.

    But its Atheists who are the bad boys: with their harsh language and obnoxious tone. How dare we actually say what we think. How dare we say such harsh things. Those poor sensitive religious people. Poor them.

  • Posts: 628
    patb wrote: »
    But its Atheists who are the bad boys: with their harsh language and obnoxious tone. How dare we actually say what we think. How dare we say such harsh things. Those poor sensitive religious people. Poor them.

    Keep trolling, dude. You have absolutely nothing of substance to add, and you know it.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    But its Atheists who are the bad boys: with their harsh language and obnoxious tone. How dare we actually say what we think. How dare we say such harsh things. Those poor sensitive religious people. Poor them.

    Keep trolling, dude. You have absolutely nothing of substance to add, and you know it.

    He happens to be right. You drape yourself in virtue but your accusations are everything but substantiated.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Actually, @Escalus5, @TheWizardOfIce really is a big hit at parties. ;).
    Well that's certainly what @Escalus5's mum said the other night!;)

    You keep claiming the moral high ground but you're the only one to come on here throwing personal insults about (although to be fair 'pomposity, arrogance and obnoxiousness'? You're just listing my best features there).

    If you're happy to appease religion and indulge their childish fantasies that's up to you but forgive the rest of us if we're sick of treating religion with kid gloves and just want to expose it to the same scrutiny everything else in the universe is subject to.

    We haven't belittled or 'bullied' anyone in here merely given them more and more and more rope for them to hang themselves. Statements that there's 'loads of evidence' for the existence of God or 'I believe in talking snakes' need to be backed up with more than 'I'm tired of this debate I'm leaving'. If anyone is guilty of turning someone into a laughing stock it's the self inflicted logical seppuku the religionists perform by digging themselves into an inescapable black hole which they can then only then extricate themselves from by running away.

    If we are guilty of ripping the piss out of religion's lack of logic, inconsistencies and general ridiculousness it's because religion is inherently ridiculous. Sorry that we had the temerity to point it out but don't shoot the messengers.

    I'm just wondering if your default position is to also respect Holocaust deniers or the KKK or ISIS or flat earthers as well? If one automatically respects the religious simply because they hold fervently held beliefs and ignore reason and evidence then why not other groups who follow the same pattern of behaviour?

    Respect should be earned not given away like Smarties.
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    But its Atheists who are the bad boys: with their harsh language and obnoxious tone. How dare we actually say what we think. How dare we say such harsh things. Those poor sensitive religious people. Poor them.

    Keep trolling, dude. You have absolutely nothing of substance to add, and you know it.
    Praise indeed from the master - how many posts have you made in here now and I've still yet to see anything that resembles something that furthers the debate about the matter under discussion.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Oh and "those billions"? You don't belong to "those billions", friend. Because those billions don't exactly get along. It's easier for a Muslim family to live and practice their religion amidst atheists than it is for them to live amidst Christians or Jews. I always have to laugh when religious people talk about "us" versus the atheist crowd. You don't have to worry about the atheist crowd. We don't pick a fight, burn or decapitate people or put magic spells on you. The "religious" form a far more disjointed mix than any other "community" of people. Put yourself in a room full of atheists, and people will probably leave you alone. Put yourself in a room full of Muslims, and I challenge you to get out unscathed. If I put myself in a room full of conservative Christians, I mightn't get out unscathed either. You see, atheists aren't the ones bringing their unproven "truths-to-die-for" to the game. Most of the time we simply don't care. Until challenged, e.g. in this thread, we're more or less happy to live and let live.

    When you talk about "those billions", you might as well be talking about sand pebbles, raindrops and beetles. You can collect billions of them indeed, but there's no cohesion, friendship or respect whatsoever. Us, atheists, are far more united. We don't put our faith in anything supernatural. "Those billions" do, except that they disagree about almost every single detail, which leaves their group in shambles much more than ours.

    Oh, and you're right. Not every man or woman of faith carries the belief that others who don't follow their doctrine should burn in hell. But, alas, many among them do and some of those pack some heavy guns and shoot the place up. I haven't heard of too many atheists feeling the need to do so. So you can get angry at the exaggeration alright, but it is still closer to the truth than when you turn the tables and call us the haters.

    Let me make another demonstration. This thread has been going quite well for 63 pages. Occasionally, someone drops a "That's it, I'm out, this thread is abysmal, I've said all I have to say, ..." sentiment. Pay close attention please to who those "angry quitters" are. Not the atheists, for sure. We're just here, you know, @Ludovico, @TheWizardOfIce, @patb, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7, myself, and others, occasionally, to pick up some astonishing wild ideas, reason against them and wait for the next good laugh. It's not us who get emotional, who take these things far too seriously, who rather run than continue what I call a fruitful debate. That, to me, proves, that some--I hope you appreciate my nuance--religious people still haven't lost that ancient "holy fire" burning inside them, that restlessness associated with an irrational belief in something unnatural; the frustration that develops in response to having nothing to work with other than "but it's what I belieeeeeeve!!!" and the knowledge that science keeps making progress, keeps rendering the god-concept more and more obsolete and there's nothing that can be done about that except burn down laboratories and such. But then aggression truly is a sign of accepting one's inferiority.

    Lastly, yes, there are billions on this planet who would call themselves religious folks. Billions indeed. There are also billions on this planet without a decent education, to no fault of their own I might add. And while I'm not accusing someone who grew up in poor conditions and never got a chance to go to school for not being able to apply advanced scientific models to their view of the cosmos, I trust you are aware that atheism thrives among the higher educated, whereas religion thrives, on average--again, I hope you will appreciate the nuance--among the less educated. There's a link, you see, and it is to be expected that if formal education, totally free from religious infusion, would reach more people on this planet, religion would plummet down fast. There are forces at work which keep religion alive. I'm not necessarily implying conspiracies; merely circumstances, such as poverty, political situations and more. If every person on this planet could go to a free-spirited college and study hard for many years, it's likely religion would be rendered all but extinct within one or two generations. Some deep-thinking religious folks would no doubt still be around, and I'm sure few of us would mind. I'm not exactly equating religion to a lack of intelligence or something similar. But some statistical correlation seems to exist...

    Either way, I agree with @TheWizardOfIce. The worst that is to be expected from us, atheists, is a bit of scoffing, maybe indeed a lack of respect. That is still far better than total aggression. And while you, @Escalus5, are correct in that not every single one of "those billions" are violent aggressors, you will, I'm afraid, have to concede that quite a few are. Atheists don't burn down churches, religious madmen burn down embassies. Over a cartoon I might add. Atheists don't decapitate "infidels", religious nutters do, and they televise it. Atheists don't destroy cinemas for showing gay relationships on film, well, you know the rest, don't you... We make fun, we are possibly disrespectful. But that's the worst atheists are known to do. We prefer to keep this an intellectual fight. I'm sorry if some lack the tools to participate and resort to other, less civilised means...
    That's substance son. Feel free to counter with something that perhaps has a bit more heft than 'hey atheists stop being so mean to religion' or 'keep trolling, dude.'

    Excellent and eloquent as ever post earlier about the universe and the pre Big Bang state of the universe too Darth. Food for thought that really got the grey cells pondering some big questions. The exact opposite of religion in fact which aims to have people bumbling around in a state of blind ignorance akin to the end of Invasion of the Body Snatchers (the original version obviously, although the Donald Sutherland one is reasonable. The less said about the Daniel Craig version the better).
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 4,617
    I think believers have had a free run for such a long time that, now the taboo is being broken down, there is genuine shock within some sectors at the honesty and forthright views from the atheist community. And most simply don't know how to react. It's a new experience for them and many are genuinely unsettled by this.

    You can see this in the way that Dawkins has been criticised within his own support base for being too honest. Some feel that atheists whould be more subtle in their approach.



    Great, perceptive quote in this video: "I felt you more than I heard you". Feelings are being hurt and the reaction comes from that rather than actually listening to the words being said and make a genuine appraisal of those words. And we should not be surprised at that: after all the words of the Bible etc are equally not properly considered. They are interprested on the emotional level rather than the rational level. The words within the Bible are interprested in a different way that the words within "The Origin of the Species".

    But God either exists or he doesn't and there is either evidence to support his existance or their isn't. It's not a sliding scale.

    So honest atheists are accused of being rude, bullying etc simply for speaking their minds. (nothing more, just words, no Transit vans on pavements, AK47s or suicide vests, just words - but we are the bullies) The religious have been speaking their mind for thousands of years. Constructing special buildings all over the country, putting on their "sunday best", sounding large bells and meeting regularly to confrim and re-enforce their beleifs.

    Can you imagine the outcry from the religious community if athiests built similar buildings (tax free?) and once a week got together and sang songs all about how religion is a load of tosh!

    And how about setting up schools where, every morning, all the kids meet in the hall and listen to the Head tell them that religion is a load of tosh. (funded by the state)

  • Posts: 7,653
    Lets face it Atheists are dicks and so are the fanatics on the other side of the argument.

    I have no problem with any believe, well except fans of SF & SP they are plain nuts, even JC steers clear from that I am told. ;)
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets face it Atheists are dicks and so are the fanatics on the other side of the argument.

    I have no problem with any believe, well except fans of SF & SP they are plain nuts, even JC steers clear from that I am told. ;)

    Well, you've just about dismissed the entire forum membership as dicks and nuts in a few short sentences.
    That has to be quite an achievement
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    NicNac wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets face it Atheists are dicks and so are the fanatics on the other side of the argument.

    I have no problem with any believe, well except fans of SF & SP they are plain nuts, even JC steers clear from that I am told. ;)

    Well, you've just about dismissed the entire forum membership as dicks and nuts in a few short sentences.
    That has to be quite an achievement

    I expected more from St. Mark.
  • Posts: 7,653
    NicNac wrote: »
    SaintMark wrote: »
    Lets face it Atheists are dicks and so are the fanatics on the other side of the argument.

    I have no problem with any believe, well except fans of SF & SP they are plain nuts, even JC steers clear from that I am told. ;)

    Well, you've just about dismissed the entire forum membership as dicks and nuts in a few short sentences.
    That has to be quite an achievement

    It was easier than you would expect actually. I totally disrespect organised religion and dislike atheist in their disrespect. They tend to be on the opposite sides and forget all the grey colours in between.

    If you read this thread you find the atheist argument rather dick-like and the arguments against them are not that grand either.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    SaintMark wrote: »
    [ I totally disrespect organised religion and dislike atheist in their disrespect. They tend to be on the opposite sides and forget all the grey colours in between.
    I beg to differ - in that you class all atheists as extremist or radical in their views, while you seem to distinguish between varying degrees among believers. I wrote earlier that I am an atheist "for all practical purposes" - meaning it makes no difference since my remaining doubts that there is no god (small G!) are so small as to be irrelevant. But yes, to an infinitesimal degree, they are there simply since it is impossible to prove a negative, and no, I don't claim to be omniscient - or I would have to be divine myself, obviously rendering my point moot.

    I also do not expect all the seemingly more "aggressive" atheists on this board to be of the kind that go around preaching their non-gospel actively, but I am also not surprised that they react the way they do on a discussion board like this, since I really don't see any valid arguments on the side of the believers either...and otherwise we wouldn't have a discussion in the first place.
  • Posts: 7,653
    It is not a discussion more like witch hunt, lets rephrase that god hunt. There is little respect for personal beliefs, I can believe that any religious person will stay the heck out of this thread not wanting to have his believes ridiculed. A belief is not the same as an organised religion, or the NRA who are by all means more ridiculous and dangerous for the safety for the society in the US.
This discussion has been closed.