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For 2000 years, Christians from all over the world have been awaiting the return of Jesus. Yet on a daily basis, men and women who claim to be the resurrected Jesus reveal themselves to us. And what do we do? We put them in insane asylums, of course. So how come Christians don't rally behind some of these people? How come we haven't yet found headlines in newspapers going "Thousands of Christians believe they have finally found Jesus reborn in this man!" or something like that?
I see a few possible reasons.
1) Most of the people claiming to be the new Christ look a bit scruffy and "off". Do Christians expect to see instead some affluent, highly decorated king? Because that means they haven't studied the Bible well and fail to understand one of the crucial elements of Christianity.
2) Perhaps Christians won't accept the return of Christ unless it happens with some supernatural spectacle. If that is the case, these Christians have but a weak trust in God. Like Thomas, they need more than just the Lord's word. Their devotion is anything but exemplary.
3) Maybe most Christians, when push comes to shove, bail out and actually, deep down inside, refuse to believe in the return of Christ at all. It then follows, however, since the resurrection of Christ is one of the fundaments of any Christian belief, that these "Christians" aren't true Christians at all.
4) It's possible that most Christians rely on their gut feeling to decide whether someone qualifies as the resurrected Jesus or not, in which case logic dictates that the wait will continue for all eternity since it's highly unlikely that any consensus could ever be reached. Perhaps this is one of those "you'll know it's him when you see him" cases, and so far we haven't been that lucky. On our DNA would be imprinted a mysterious code that allows us, when the time is right, to sense, almost instinctively, that Jesus has returned. Since there exist people scattered all over the intellectual spectrum, rationality and intelligent reasoning wouldn't be fair tools for the Lord to make his presence known. Some unfortunates wouldn't be capable of making smart assessments. Would God leave them out? Either way, if Jesus were lying dormant somewhere on some ethereal plane, waiting for the proper time to Superman himself back among the living, I'd give him the advice to come up with a really convincing act or else his devout followers may turn out a vast disappointment.
I guess many Christians imagine that Jesus will come back looking like actor Robert Powell when he played... Jesus.
That's one for The Fortean Times. They probably reported on it back then.
Why when one guy does something 2000 years ago he is a deity but when another does the same that's a story for the Fortean Times?
I disagree and I find this condescending beyond belief. First and foremost there is more then enough evidence to turn Atheists to Christians
Lee Strobel
Dr William Craig
I could go on but what is the point.
Lud I believe you said that "maybe the disciples moved the body" or perhaps it was you Darth Either way that is the single DUMBEST theory I have ever heard... so 12 men who were terrified of the jews decide to steal the body and then be killed in gruesome ways for what reason?
Again you want to discuss Logic where is the logic in 12 people stealing a body only to be killed and hated and despised?
Again Wiz's stupidity of maybe Jesus didn't die on the cross (which again the amount of blood loss and the wounds yet being in a dank tomb in first century AD heals him magically? and gives him super strength to roll away the boulder what is this real life or the latest Marvel movie?)
No I don';t give Humankind a lot of credit... Wars death murder (both religious based and non religious based) yeah we have done a bang up job so far (sarcasm intended) I'm sorry but we are the only species in the world that has this moral based view this view of society of "civilized" behavior why? why aren't we in a tree throwing feces at each other? again apart from platenism (which I am misspelling but is a scientific view that actions over time allied themselves with concepts of right or wrong) I am not seeing much evidence for where morals came from without religion.
Ok so what is the Meaning of life? Wait there is none. At least in terms of Atheistical view points. The ATHEIST CAN PROVIDE NO REASON FOR WHY WE EXIST AND NO MEANING TO LIFE. Everyone be it the rich person or the poor pauper is essentially wasting their life away. (Paraphrasing Dr William Craig) There is no meaning For anyone to exist and there is no reason for us to be on this planet. And you taking offence is good hopefully this train of thought will make you even more mad.
You assume for some illogical reason I am not well versed in the science of today specifically Evolutionary Biology etc... quite a claim to make and while I am having a particularly bad day and know I should wait until I have time to go over each bit of evidence and discuss science logic etc but he vile and dare I say hatred in your patb and wizards posts makes me wonder if before you come on here are you ritually beat up by nuns or something... Moving along lets start with a quote
"From A knowledge of God's work we shall come to know him"
Robert Boyle the father of modern chemstry
Anyways a few quick points because you think evidence doesn’t exist and that science as “killed god” fair enough I assume you are familiar with Millner's origin of life experiment the one I presume you Wizard and all the other good atheists learned in school and put the nail in the god coffin for you.. where in using early earth atmosphere conditions Millner (I believe that is how you spell his name but I am doing this in a bit of a rush as I had a huge issue at work and yet I promised my brother in Christ Dragonpol I would come back here to defend the faith so sorry Wiz this is not the doctoral thesis I promised you but more of a precursor) was able to form amino acids by electically charging the air... the building blocks of life...
Here is what the science books DON'T Teach it was proven false in 1963... Don't believe me his experiment got two key things wrong
1. his early earth atmosphere was way off base
2. Amino acids alone can't produce life in fact once to put it in laymen's terms you can't put humpty dumpty together again you cant take all the blocks needed for life and put them in sterile environment and life simply will not just happen.
Again I challenge you darth put down your copy of newsweek or wherever you think your getting the latest science research and actually Dig through some well researched papers I believe at one point you all also held up evolution as proof god doesn't exist... Ah Darwin's theory...
https://dissentfromdarwin.org/
I'll just put this here and let the great Wizard of Ice find the one Christian scientist who signed this document clearly making it null in void in spite many of the scientists who signed this are I believe more agnostic then anything else (the clock maker god theory born in Germany in the 1800's and still ticking ...pun intended)
I challenge you darth Wiz Pat etc take an hour out of your day tomorrow and watch either of these videos
Again I know more science then you Darth but if you want to dust off your testubes and start reading through a lot of dry scientific studies (which I already have done) let's dance..
You say that atheists can provide no meaning for life as if that's some sort of winning argument but I think that just outlines the difference in how religious people think. There doesn't have to be a meaning. It's just nature isn't it, the way things are. But you seem to think that can't possibly be right or it's all just a waste of time.
All I'll say is I don't see it as a waste. I think life is what you make of it. We give it meaning ourselves. Friends, family, doing stuff that makes you happy. I don't see that as meaningless just because there might be nothing at the end of it.
Personally I don't care about trying to convince you about what is or isn't true, but I'd really like an answer from get you or @Dragonpol to my question a few pages back. What about the other religions? Do you think it's different teachings/interpretations coming from the same God or do you think they're wrong. Because from an outsiders perspective I genuinely don't see any as more unbelieveable than the other.
Also, not implying you shouldn't be allowed on here or anything, but I'm curious about where Bond fits in to your life with your religion. Because he isn't exactly a good Christian role model is he, so what led to you becoming a Bond fan?
A couple responses I want to make to this post:
-I also believe life is what you make of it, and it’s basically up to every individual to find/create meaning. That can come in the form of religion, but that’s just one option.
-When I was a Christian, I was a Bond fan. I don’t see how a religious person can’t enjoy Bond and why Bond has to be seen as a role model in any way.
Does this prove that God exists? We all know the answer.
Many of faith cant cope with reality.
@Risico007 "The ATHEIST CAN PROVIDE NO REASON FOR WHY WE EXIST AND NO MEANING TO LIFE. "
Classic tactic. Atheists are under no obligation to offer any meaning to life. The ball is never in our court (we don't play the game or even own a racquet!) as atheism is a lack of belief. Can non stamp collectors give a reason why you should collect stamps? No, because its nothing to do with them. Those of faith always attempt to put atheism at the same level as their beliefs (as if it's a belief system in it's own right) and then find fault. Atheism is under no obligations to come up with any answers. That's not what atheism does. Those of faith are desperate for answers so when atheists cant supply answers, they see it as a weakness.
If, on the morning of the 25th of Dec, a non Father Christmas believer cannot tell you who put the presents under the tree, does that prove that Father Christmas exists?
Atheists cannot provide any reasons why we exist? Yes, thats right. Not one tiny weeny microscopic reason. So what? So, therefore, God exists? Not a spec of logic there. Just nothing. All this does is indicate a desperate need for answers. And if atheism has no answers, lets move onto to a belief system that has all of the answers. And this is what makes it so tempting. Like one of those recipe boxes with all the ingedients there for you. It's all been done for you. No need for any real work.
Thinking about the universe and attempting to work it out is hard work. Too hard for many who, rather than think independently, just turn to not only a ready made recipe but to one on their doorstep.
@Risico007 We already had this conversation about the claims of resurrection..You came back with the same rehashed arguments. For someone studying history you sure don't do your homework. We have no reason to believe the accounts of the Bible. We don't know if there was a Jesus who was executed, and even if he had been there's no reason to believe the claims of the Bible at face value. Now you speak of volumes of blood as if you'd been part of a forensic after the crucifixion and go into the psychology of the disciples of which we know nothing but the alleged names. For all we know there was no tomb to begin with and Jesus corpse was thrown in a communal ground with other anonymous nobodies the Romans took a dislike of.
As for meaning of life, what makes you think there needs to be one?
True, that can come in the form of religion. And while Bond doesn't have to be seen as a role model (more of an anti hero anyway isn't he) it does sort of glorify some stuff that goes against Christian values doesn't it. The sex, the killing. I'm not saying a Christian can't be a Bond fan, anyone can, I'm just curious about how a Christian as devout as @Risico007 ended up as one.
@Risico007's schtick is wearing pretty thin now to be honest as he seems incapable of bringing anything to the table other than some frothing at the mouth, and a few pseudo scientific links that don't really have any bearing on anything and not a lot more.
Once again he fails to grasp that atheism is a non position, a vacuum that has zero proof but doesn't need it because it's not trying to prove anything.
There's no need for you to comment on atheism at all as we haven't asked for any evidence about that. In future let me save you the time of writing out massive paragraphs of waffle by stating once and for all 'Atheists cannot prove God doesn't exist'. Ok? Have we all got that? Great now let's move on to the question of 'Can believers prove God exists?' So far their efforts have fallen somewhere between pitiful and embarrassing.
At least @Risico007 (unlike some) tries to offer some kind of attempted arguments but he's terribly confused about how logic works. Take the Millner (sic) experiment he seems to be suggesting that refuting that automatically proves that God exists. Why is the existence of God always the default zero state position for these people so that it a hypothesis fails 'It's a bingo' and they win the Internet?
Anyway going to have to cut it short as I'm on a plane that's just about to take off. I'll be sure to keep praying throughout that it stays in the air magically rather than relying on aeronautics and thrust to keep us from plunging into the ocean.
Don't tempt fate.
Can you outline the definition of fate for me? Surely God has the power to overrule fate if he wants to doesn't he?
Pretty much every plane that has ever crashed (except MH370) can be explained by a combination of human error, mechanical failure, weather conditions or terrorism. If surviving flying relied on either fate and/or prayers I think we might see an upsurge in people holidaying at home because no one in their right mind would get on a plane.
Thankfully planes stay in the air due to our knowledge of physics rather than blind luck or the whims of the 'ever loving and merciful God' and as long as nothing is done to interrupt the process of enough thrust moving air over the wings at the correct pitch and assuming all other factors such as pilot competence, enough fuel, no bombs being onboard etc work as they should then planes don't crash.
Still, I'm glad to hear that you landed safely. Enjoy your holiday, if that's what it is.
Yes, I'm sure it's business with pleasure.
Of course! If you're near any Gardner Bond locations take some pics!
What an arrogant and narcissistic way to think that human life has to 'mean something'
Why should it? We're no different to any other life form on this planet. We're born, we exist, we die. Whether we're rich or poor, we're all going to the same place.
Terrifying thought isn't it, to think that one day you'll cease to exist? Don't you think this is why religion was created in the first place? Our poor old ancestors must of thought the same, "Is this it?!!! Surely there's something else?!!!" It all stems from fear of the unknown. I wonder how scary a lightning storm was to our cavemen ancestors?
Little by little Gods are created in the minds of men and gradually some bright sparks realize that its a way of controlling the masses. And how powerful a tool has it proved when in the 21st century feckless folk are STILL being brainwashed into believing the most absurd and ridiculous things just because they've been told its so.
I don't understand how adults can follow so blindly something they've merely been told is true. I went to a church school as a child and was questioning everything I was told regarding Christ because even at 8 years old I was skeptical about the stuff I was being told. Needless to say I wasn't popular with the teachers there.
As for all that meaning of life bollocks, my own personal feelings are that we're here for a very short time, so be a decent person, have fun and enjoy the incredible nature of this amazing planet. Simple!
What an arrogant and narciccistic way to think that human life has to 'mean something'
Why should it? We're no different to any other life form on this planet. We're born, we exist, we die. Whether we're rich or poor, we're all going to the same place.
Thanks. There's been so many well written intelligent posts from the Atheist's on this thread but I wanted to stick my thoughts down as its a fascinating discussion.
And yet people follow Darwinian evolution with not a question because instead of a man in a white robe it’s a man in a white coat saying it... I mean I guess lab coats are snazzier
Sigh I have done this before but let’s do it a second time
Here is the story of Jesus without touching the Bible
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.]
(Josephus)
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
(Tacitus)
So with these two sources
Jesus is known as the christ
Jesus had followers
Jesus died under Pontius Pilate
His disciples saw him after death
And that’s just half of the outside biblical sources shall I you make more silly comments about history or is that enough
As for the theory of evolution, we do not "follow" it. We accept that it's the best model to explain the variety of life on the planet according to evidence. And we accept it as it is supported by substantial evidence. But in any case, even if it was proven wrong in part or entirety, it would bring zero weight to Creationist claims, whether it is from worshippers of the Christian God, Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
It's getting to the point where even I am starting to feel pity for you now. At least if you're going to rant at the top of your voice like Hitler in a Munich bierkeller then type the whole sentence in capitals rather than have it come across like the fevered delusions of a rabies victim.
I can't even be arsed to counter such an intellectually vaccuous statement, especially given @LeonardPine does such an eloquent job below: Fine words Sir and your last paragraph does a far better job of providing a philosophy for humans to live by than any of the thousands of pages of drivel you find in the religious texts.
Could you be so good as to point me to the passage in the bible that delineates precisely how much blood Jesus lost?
You tell me son - you're the one who considers all this credible not me. Personally I find the notion of a billionaire developing a suit with jet engines on it that allows him to fly infinitely more plausible than the fairy tale you're trying to peddle.
Isn't strange how the atheists manage to outline their arguments quite easily but the believers, despite having absolute mountains of proof apparently, after promising it to us in the cold depths of winter still haven't managed to deliver anything coherent as the clocks go forwards for British Summer Time and the first buds of spring start to bloom? Too busy they claim but not so busy, it seems, that they can't manage to to find the time to churn out paragraph after paragraph of confused desperation.
And come on Draggers you're better than looking for help here. You're a decent bloke - OK you have some rather fundamental character flaws such as believing in God and thinking NSF is a good book, but dont demean yourself by thinking Risico007 is a lifebelt of intellectual prowess you can cling to as he leaves us all chastened with his mind blowing arguments.