The MI6 Community Religion and Faith Discussion Space (for members of all faiths - and none!)

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  • Posts: 19,339
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Sorry,why are my ears burning and i am being mentioned several times,peeps ?

    I think because you predicted the outcome of the thread very well in the first post it received!

    Aaah i just checked....i did indeed Draggers,well everyone knows where my faith lies ,but i wont contribute.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Sorry,why are my ears burning and i am being mentioned several times,peeps ?

    I think because you predicted the outcome of the thread very well in the first post it received!

    Aaah i just checked....i did indeed Draggers,well everyone knows where my faith lies ,but i wont contribute.

    I don't blame you. Still, it's been an adventure.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Sorry,why are my ears burning and i am being mentioned several times,peeps ?

    I think because you predicted the outcome of the thread very well in the first post it received!

    Aaah i just checked....i did indeed Draggers,well everyone knows where my faith lies ,but i wont contribute.

    I don't blame you. Still, it's been an adventure.

    I havent even checked to be sure,but i can bet on the side who is winning,and its not people who believe in the Lord.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Sorry,why are my ears burning and i am being mentioned several times,peeps ?

    I think because you predicted the outcome of the thread very well in the first post it received!

    Aaah i just checked....i did indeed Draggers,well everyone knows where my faith lies ,but i wont contribute.

    I don't blame you. Still, it's been an adventure.

    I havent even checked to be sure,but i can bet on the side who is winning,and its not people who believe in the Lord.

    You are correct!
  • Posts: 15,125
    You know it would take one thing to prove us heathens wrong.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Front up with a talking snake or a valid reason for baby cancer and we'll hold our hands up and walk away.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Well regardless of a valid reason for evil and diseases (God might not care one bit about kindness or morals), or of any proof of a specific God (Christian or other), simply proving there IS a God of any kind, or some entity that has any godly characteristics would be enough to prove us wrong. Seriously, even the Flying Spaghetti Monster would do at this point.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    That's a fair point. There I was assuming that God was automatically as all loving as he is painted by his acolytes.

    The reason for baby cancer might just be he's an utter bastard who loves inflicting cancer on babies so it has no actual bearing on if he exists or not. But if it was proven that he did exist and gleefully committed infanticide one would have to question why anyone would worship such a person?
  • Posts: 12,474
    I used to take comfort in believing in God when I was a Christian, but now the thought of a god existing actually is more scary than comforting to me. If God is real, it doesn’t do anything to help us. It sits by while horrendous things occur and we all suffer so much individually. From my own experience being a Christian, I never really was able to gain anything tangible worth believing in. I never heard God talk to me, and no matter how much I prayed or begged things didn’t get any better when I needed them too most. If God is real, I just can’t see how it cares.
  • Posts: 15,125
    So far on this thread most of the pro God arguments have been Chewbacca Defence.
  • Posts: 12,474
    I’m not the most well-educated in science so I speak mostly about my personal experience.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I used to take comfort in believing in God when I was a Christian, but now the thought of a god existing actually is more scary than comforting to me. If God is real, it doesn’t do anything to help us. It sits by while horrendous things occur and we all suffer so much individually. From my own experience being a Christian, I never really was able to gain anything tangible worth believing in. I never heard God talk to me, and no matter how much I prayed or begged things didn’t get any better when I needed them too most. If God is real, I just can’t see how it cares.

    Well given we're just going round in circles on the existence of God perhaps it might be better to change tack to this for a while and ask the believers - why do they venerate a God who does nothing?

    When I was a naïve, impressionable child I used to pray every night that God would take care of me and my loved ones. And, ignoring that I only prayed for about 6 years and have spent the last 30 not praying, you might say that the fact we are all still alive is all the evidence you need to prove the efficacy of prayer and God's guiding hand watching over us.

    Except of course my granddad did die (nice bit of cancer out of the blue and dead in 6 months for a bloke who went to high mass every sunday and visited Rome and Jerusalem several times - cheers God) but the religious would say that was God calling him to be with him I suppose.

    No doubt @Risico007 can provide us with numerous sources from the eminent university of Youtube to prove otherwise, but there's not the slightest scintilla of proof that praying works (except perhaps for a small psychosomatic benefit if you are a fervent believer I guess?) yet people, largely from less educated countries you note, still do it by the million seemingly undeterred by the lack of success.

    God has done nothing, since sending his son over 2000 years ago, to demonstrate that He exists - the odd appearance to peasants at Lourdes and Fatima (please observe that he never appears to people working in an office block in Manhattan) notwithstanding - yet there are hundreds of billions who still think he is worthy of worship.

    Why did he keep intervening on an almost daily basis (but only in certain parts of the middle east) during the events of the Old Testament but then from 33AD has just done nothing?

    I know he works in mysterious ways and all that jazz but what exactly does he do that makes people so impressed and awestruck that they are willing to suspend all rules of logic and reason?
  • Posts: 12,474
    And why did God wait so long to send Jesus. And why does there even have to be a blood sacrifice if God is all-powerful and could have made it easier any way he pleased. It just makes no sense of any kind.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    main-qimg-6fd2828bb71f3df3a2cd5a834478c9c4-c
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited April 2018 Posts: 9,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    And why did God wait so long to send Jesus. And why does there even have to be a blood sacrifice if God is all-powerful and could have made it easier any way he pleased. It just makes no sense of any kind.
    Why does he make everything, including us, then lose his shit when we behave precisely how he must have known we would and drown everyone? At best he's a dictatorial, petulant toddler like Kim or Trump. Are these kinds of people worthy of worship? You might think someone who was omnipotent might be above childish tantrums because people went out drinking and shagging rather than go to church. It's pretty pathetic to be honest.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    main-qimg-6fd2828bb71f3df3a2cd5a834478c9c4-c
    It's an oldie but a goodie!

    Although @Risico007 no doubt has a Youtube video of a more qualified Greek philosopher that refutes it.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Risico, you may have misunderstood my post about insanity. I was being sarcastic.
    Perhaps it was a typo and you meant 'inanity'?
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Hallucinating things creates accurate predictions hmm might have to take lsd the next time I want to play the lotto

    Again let’s look at these stories for a split second

    The neurologist whose video I posted first and foremost pointed out that is was scientifically impossible for him to have hallucinated his experience but ignoring that because in Thunderfingers parallel world we live in god doesn’t exist and Wizard knows more about neuroscience then a neurologist but moving on he had no idea he had a sister untill he met her in the afterlife and hen found out later that surprise surpise the woman he meet in the afterlife was his half sister who died 3 years earlier... again science it’s not just for skeptics anymore
    Regarding your desperation to prove an out of body experience as proof of heaven:
    http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1655632,00.html

    Then compare this: https://ki.se/en/about/startpage which is the homepage of the institute doing the above research and the one for your esteemed body: https://iands.org/

    A few quotes from their websites:

    The Karolinska Insititute: 'Karolinska Institutet is one of the world’s foremost medical universities.
    As a university, KI is Sweden’s single largest centre of medical academic research and offers the country’s widest range of medical courses and programmes.

    Since 1901 the Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet has selected the Nobel laureates in Physiology or Medicine.
    '

    IANDS: 'Don't NDEs prove that there is life after death?
    Certainly this is a very popular interpretation, although there is no "proof" in a statistical sense and no consensus of opinion. A more cautious explanation is that NDEs suggest that some aspect of human consciousness may continue after physical death.
    '

    I let the reader make up their own mind as to which is the more credible organisation.
    Remington wrote: »

    1. Interesting theory but I think it's false. I just did a survey on twenty of my friends who are also Christians. Fifteen are Bond fans. The other five just haven't seen them. I know this doesn't mean anything but just found it somewhat interesting after reading this.
    Very good of you to do some impromptu research and despite the small sample concentrated on only Christians that does seem to disprove that theory and suggest that the religious (or at least Christian westerners) are more than happy to be Bond fans.
    Remington wrote: »
    2. Well Wiz, if I'm ever in the mood to get mocked for my beliefs, especially by you lol, I'll be the first one here. As our mutual friend @barryt007 said at the beginning of this thread, you'd need a sword and suit of armor to survive in this snakepit of a thread. Personally, I try to avoid snakepits lol. Sounds like @Risico007 has more balls than me on the subject.
    Well I think this thread is very fair in that we only mock people who hold ridiculous beliefs sans any discernible proof. If your beliefs fall under this description then sorry old boy but yes you are fair game. There's no sword or armor required to survive in this thread, merely logic and reason.

    If we are to give your small survey some credence though then there should be plenty of believers on these boards but they never pipe up in this thread. Now I'm not saying you speak for everyone but it says a lot about the religious that they keep quiet for fear of ridicule. Where's your faith guys? The apostles were happy to die for their belief in God but you are worried about a bit of piss taking from some infidels? How's it going to look when you face St Pete at the pearly gates and he says 'What did you do when people were ridiculing the Lord? Why did you not speak up?'

    Personally I'd counter with 'That's a bit rich coming from the bloke who kept denying his faith until the cock crowed mate. Now open up.'

    Well to answer your question, I'm probably a deist. Basically I believe in God but not religion if that makes any sense whatsoever. My background is pretty Christian but not the fanatical type. It's more of a private, internal thing. I have no problem with atheists. I'm friends with several. As long as they're at least somewhat respectful of my beliefs, then we'll get along fine. This is likely one of my last posts on this thread since I prefer to debate on Bond. Lol as you were. Cheers.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Sorry,why are my ears burning and i am being mentioned several times,peeps ?

    Well, there was mention of insanity and inanity Bazza....
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    PWwADhR.jpg
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    I've just returned from a week in Dublin. Very lovely I must add. Wonderful town and the Wicklow Mountains are amazing.

    An interesting thing I picked up while I was in Dublin is the nearing referendum regarding abortion. Folks were handing out flyers everywhere, asking the Irish to vote "YES", meaning that women would no longer have to fly to the UK in case they want a quick abortion. A student from Trinity College explained to us that it's more than just the fact of abortion itself; it's about the procedure that is sometimes so protracted, the women have already passed the "point of no return" by the time the abortion is approved.

    There were of course also "NO" folks. A few of them. Shouting verses from the Bible no less. That's all they did; that's all they had. Vote no because yes wouldn't fit Biblical law.

    To clarify, I was on a school trip with five colleagues and 57 students ages 17 - 18. One of my accompanying colleagues would have become a father about 10 weeks from now, but right after we had landed on the first day of the trip, he received word from his wife here in Belgium that her 30 weeks old unborn child had died from pre-eclampsia. Obviously, he took the first plane back to Belgium. Everyone, including our students, shared in his grief. We nevertheless tried to give our students the best trip they could have, and I dare say that we have managed quite well. That said, one of our girls, who usually speaks before she thinks, mentioned the tragic fact to a Bible-quoting "NO" prophet while trying to reason with her. Not the best idea our beloved student has ever had of course because A) her English wasn't good enough to debate a tough issue with an Irish woman and B) abortion and pre-eclampsia are two entirely different things. Still, the woman picked up on that, to my initial surprise; and to my lasting horror, she said, "the unborn died because God wants the child to live eternally in heaven".

    So, while my colleagues were doing their best to keep me from beating that woman to within an inch of her life, two things sprang to mind. A) If God allowed his Son to be resurrected after his death, a man who had already lived for over 30 years, why would he want to take the life of a child that isn't yet born? Makes absolutely no sense. And even if he had the power to do that, I wouldn't ever worship a cruel monster like that. To think that some people call him "the god of love"... B) "because God wants" i.e. God is a killer. He wanted the child dead. And that comes from someone who sees abortion as an unbiblical act of barbarism!? So we can't abort a pregnancy even if the foetus is the result of rape or cursed with a severe physical dysfunction, but when God does it, it's fine.

    How some here can still defend that God or proudly proclaim they worship him, is beyond me. I guess it's more or less on the same level as worshipping some of the vilest mass murderers in our hystory, e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao or my own king Leopold II. A cross or swastica; they're all drenched in blood anyway.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    I'm sorry for your colleague @DarthDimi. A thought provoking post as always Sir.

    PS - Dublin is awesome.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    Thank you, @royale65. And indeed, Dublin grew on me within minutes after arriving. The food was excellent and the people very generous and kind. A pub owner gave this 36-year-old body a wonderful compliment too, asking to see my ID when entering his establishment. ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Thank you, @royale65. And indeed, Dublin grew on me within minutes after arriving. The food was excellent and the people very generous and kind. A pub owner gave this 36-year-old body a wonderful compliment too, asking to see my ID when entering his establishment. ;)

    Are you sure he didn t think he recognized you from the Irish police s wanted ads ?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    That, of course, is possible too. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Makes absolutely no sense.
    Makes perfect sense. He killed the kid because he wanted to test the parents' devotion to him. What better way to check if they are true and devoted believers than by killing their baby and seeing if they still think he is wonderful and all loving?

    A shame the baby had to die but then there is always collateral damage. I mean it's not like he could have just read their minds instead to see if they were devoted believers is it?
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    B) "because God wants" i.e. God is a killer. He wanted the child dead.
    Well we should just hope that God doesn't suddenly star wanting to rape us all with pineapples as if that becomes his whim I'll start worshipping on my knees pretty quickly.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    How some here can still defend that God or proudly proclaim they worship him, is beyond me.
    I'm not sure there are any here that still do that are there? @Risico007 tries manfully but fails abysmally and @Dragonpol only comes here to tell us that he's leaving this thread. The actual defence of God hear is pretty threadbare. One might almost think they are struggling to come up with any arguments as to why one would pledge love and devotion to such a narcissistic mass murderer....
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I guess it's more or less on the same level as worshipping some of the vilest mass murderers in our hystory, e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao or my own king Leopold II. A cross or swastica; they're all drenched in blood anyway.
    Please don't besmirch the Fuhrer's good name Sir - at least he stopped at 6 million and left behind the Beetle and autobahns as some small recompense.

    In thousands of years of murder, violence and bloodshed God hasn't even left us the cuckoo clock!

  • edited April 2018 Posts: 9,848
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I've just returned from a week in Dublin. Very lovely I must add. Wonderful town and the Wicklow Mountains are amazing.

    An interesting thing I picked up while I was in Dublin is the nearing referendum regarding abortion. Folks were handing out flyers everywhere, asking the Irish to vote "YES", meaning that women would no longer have to fly to the UK in case they want a quick abortion. A student from Trinity College explained to us that it's more than just the fact of abortion itself; it's about the procedure that is sometimes so protracted, the women have already passed the "point of no return" by the time the abortion is approved.

    There were of course also "NO" folks. A few of them. Shouting verses from the Bible no less. That's all they did; that's all they had. Vote no because yes wouldn't fit Biblical law.

    To clarify, I was on a school trip with five colleagues and 57 students ages 17 - 18. One of my accompanying colleagues would have become a father about 10 weeks from now, but right after we had landed on the first day of the trip, he received word from his wife here in Belgium that her 30 weeks old unborn child had died from pre-eclampsia. Obviously, he took the first plane back to Belgium. Everyone, including our students, shared in his grief. We nevertheless tried to give our students the best trip they could have, and I dare say that we have managed quite well. That said, one of our girls, who usually speaks before she thinks, mentioned the tragic fact to a Bible-quoting "NO" prophet while trying to reason with her. Not the best idea our beloved student has ever had of course because A) her English wasn't good enough to debate a tough issue with an Irish woman and B) abortion and pre-eclampsia are two entirely different things. Still, the woman picked up on that, to my initial surprise; and to my lasting horror, she said, "the unborn died because God wants the child to live eternally in heaven".

    So, while my colleagues were doing their best to keep me from beating that woman to within an inch of her life, two things sprang to mind. A) If God allowed his Son to be resurrected after his death, a man who had already lived for over 30 years, why would he want to take the life of a child that isn't yet born? Makes absolutely no sense. And even if he had the power to do that, I wouldn't ever worship a cruel monster like that. To think that some people call him "the god of love"... B) "because God wants" i.e. God is a killer. He wanted the child dead. And that comes from someone who sees abortion as an unbiblical act of barbarism!? So we can't abort a pregnancy even if the foetus is the result of rape or cursed with a severe physical dysfunction, but when God does it, it's fine.

    How some here can still defend that God or proudly proclaim they worship him, is beyond me. I guess it's more or less on the same level as worshipping some of the vilest mass murderers in our hystory, e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Mao or my own king Leopold II. A cross or swastica; they're all drenched in blood anyway.

    I’m sorry did you just say god doesn’t exist because he is mean?????

    And you claim to be a scientist HA

    Also you do realize wizard your materialistic view of the universe died in the 1920’s with Schroeder cat experiment



  • Posts: 15,125
    @Risico007 Nobody says there's no God because there's suffering and unfairness in the world. God's moral or lack of is entirely irrelevant to his existence or non existence. What @DarthDimi is saying is that Christian position on abortion is immoral and defended only by devotion. I'd add that if there is a God and he allows suffering he said is unworthy of deference, let alone worship.
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    If god does exist he's, or she, or they, or it, is one sadistic son of a bitch.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    I fail to see where in my post I'm suggesting that god doesn't exist because he is "mean".
  • Posts: 15,125
    royale65 wrote: »
    If god does exist he's, or she, or they, or it, is one sadistic son of a bitch.

    Or he's a clueless moron. Given how lousy his design is, that would make sense. Assuming there's a God of course.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,186
    Another interesting point would be this.

    Many god-believers claim that seeing how "perfect" all the natural constants turn out for life in our universe, there must be an intelligent design behind it all. After all, if, say, the general constant of gravity or the speed of light or the half-lives of certain isotopes were even slightly different than what they are now, our universe might be completely incapable of supporting life or even of matter as we now know it. So isn't it amazing that everything fits so neatly, allowing us to "be"?

    The truth is that our universe isn't very supportive of life at all. For example, on Earth, it doesn't take a great deal of effort to be exposed to lethal temperatures. A few aggressive volcano eruptions might be enough to render an entire hemisphere barren. A little overexposure to the Sun could be enough to develop terminal skin cancer. Gravity on Earth, the one planet we do know can support life, is such that if we fall even a few meters down, we might be killed or at least crippled. And while the ozone layer protects us against the more cancerous UV rays, ozone itself is toxic to us. Yet the processes which allow the formation of ozone in the stratosphere, also take place right here, amidst us all, in the troposphere. Earth is covered with water but only a small percentage of that water is consumable by us. In fact, water and fire not only supply our basic needs but can be surprisingly lethal. We rely on a biology which is extremely vulnerable. Unwanted and often unknown exposure to rather abundant biological, physical or chemical agents can be enough to render us infertile. Even when pregnant, women risk losing their unborn children. Even when born, children risk an early death, being so weak and feeble. Gene pools need constant mixing and refreshing lest a certain "tribe" wither under the pressure of its own inheritable diseases and dysfunctions. And most planets we've examined so far, including literally every planet in our solar system apart from Earth, can never support multicellular life no matter what.

    To say that our universe is magnificently equipped for life is to say that used toilet paper is perfect for printing books. We can barely manage, and global phases of massive extinction of life have preceded us several times. All it takes is an accidental meteor collision or some such random fact to be the end of us. The universe is extremely hostile to us. In fact, explain to me why god would give us "only" a few thousand years to figure out how to escape Earth and colonise space, since he made the Sun only temporary, since he allows the moon to gradually travel away from us (and if the moon's too far away from us, life on Earth will be gone for good!) and since gigantic pieces of stone and ice cross our path often enough to make deadly collisions almost inevitable.

    One could argue that god wants us to remain alert and active; that by forcing us to go to extreme lengths to stay alive, he keeps us from becoming lazy. But the Bible tells us we're god's ultimate achievement. Imagine if Da Vinci had finally been pleased with his Mona Lisa, only to then store the bloody thing outside in the rain, wind and aggressive sun rays, you know, to "challenge" the painting to prove its worth to him. There's something very sadistic, potentially "crazy" but in any case "imperfect" about all of this. Logic dictates that imperfections aren't allowed for a god, ergo: there isn't a god.
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