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  • Posts: 15,125
    [quote="Ludovico;881789". In the past some religions have been practically wiped out without a single of their believers be put to death:

    I think that has only happened when another religion aimed to take over. Which has happened quite a few times.[/quote]

    Obviously I'm not saying there's been waves of rationality that destroyed some now defunct faiths. But fact of the matter is you can "kill" a faith without hurting a single one of its practitioners. And the decline of religions in the West is at least partially caused by growing skepticism.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    No doubt.
  • Posts: 9,847
    I am still waiting for explanation on what happened in Jerusalem
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    And the decline of religions in the West is at least partially caused by growing skepticism.
    Excellent observation. Even though atheism is being painted as some sort of intolerant facism ready to string up all believers it’s not fear and persecution by atheists that has seen church attendances drop off a cliff in the last 50 years.

    It’s apathy and reason.

    And even if the church burned all atheists at the stake (after all it has previous at using this tactic) that wouldn’t alter the fact that more and more people are turning away from ‘faith’.

    This report gives me hope that by the time I die religion will be seen as the irrelevance it truly is:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/21/christianity-non-christian-europe-young-people-survey-religion
  • Posts: 15,125
    Risico007 wrote: »
    I am still waiting for explanation on what happened in Jerusalem

    A lot happened in Jerusalem...Even if you narrow it to the last month. Care to be more explicit?

    If you are referring to something that allegedly happened about two thousand years ago you'll need first to prove that it DID happen. Otherwise it's not our problem.

    Tit for tat: I'm still waiting for that godly press conference.
  • Posts: 9,847
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    I am still waiting for explanation on what happened in Jerusalem

    A lot happened in Jerusalem...Even if you narrow it to the last month. Care to be more explicit?

    If you are referring to something that allegedly happened about two thousand years ago you'll need first to prove that it DID happen. Otherwise it's not our problem.

    Tit for tat: I'm still waiting for that godly press conference.

    Ok so let me understand

    Atheists can make any claim they want and not have to provide any evidence at all but Christians need to have evidence for every word they say...

    Please remain ignorant and hypocritical it’s really laughable

    Remember if your atheist claim anything you want and it’s the truth
  • Posts: 15,125
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Risico007 wrote: »
    I am still waiting for explanation on what happened in Jerusalem

    A lot happened in Jerusalem...Even if you narrow it to the last month. Care to be more explicit?

    If you are referring to something that allegedly happened about two thousand years ago you'll need first to prove that it DID happen. Otherwise it's not our problem.

    Tit for tat: I'm still waiting for that godly press conference.

    Ok so let me understand

    Atheists can make any claim they want and not have to provide any evidence at all but Christians need to have evidence for every word they say...

    Please remain ignorant and hypocritical it’s really laughable

    Remember if your atheist claim anything you want and it’s the truth

    See that's good you asked because you don't understand a thing. Let me educate you: anybody making a positive claims has the burden of proof. If I was saying "there is no God" I'd have the burden of proof. But that's never what I said. I don't believe in God or gods until I have sufficient evidence to the contrary. Now you claim that there's a God, that he became a living man who died on the cross, resurrected, turns his body into bread and wine the time of a ritual, etc. All extraordinary claims that require extraordinary evidence.

    Don't thank me.
  • Posts: 9,847
    No that is an extraordinary claim saying there is no god when something like 5.99 billion people believe in some kind of god clearly is a claim that needs evidence
  • MayDayDiVicenzoMayDayDiVicenzo Here and there
    Posts: 5,080
    bd6.png
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    You're all mad. Long live the God-King Lizard!
  • Posts: 15,125
    Risico007 wrote: »
    No that is an extraordinary claim saying there is no god when something like 5.99 billion people believe in some kind of god clearly is a claim that needs evidence

    Except this is NOT what I claimed. Did you bother reading my previous post?
  • Posts: 9,847



    He’s right you guys are fun to wind up
  • Posts: 15,125
    Sometimes I wonder if you're not a Poe.
  • Posts: 9,847
    Look my view is simple on the base of all things supernatural there is 10% science can’t explain and my issue with atheist is that 9/10ths of the time they ignore that 10% because they can’t explain it.... what is scientific about that?

    Let’s assume going on religion we found evidence that even the most harden atheist found compelling 20 dollars says that the atheist would simply ignore it rather then trying to find out the science behind resurrection
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Look my view is simple on the base of all things supernatural there is 10% science can’t explain and my issue with atheist is that 9/10ths of the time they ignore that 10% because they can’t explain it.... what is scientific about that?
    We await proof of the 10%.

    What sort of mind believes the 10% and disregards the 90% simply because of a cobbled together book of recollections from some cultists 2000 years ago?
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Let’s assume going on religion we found evidence that even the most harden atheist found compelling 20 dollars says that the atheist would simply ignore it rather then trying to find out the science behind resurrection
    Happy to take your 20 bucks if you can provide any. And I don’t mean just saying ‘The bible says the tomb was empty and you can’t prove otherwise QED Jesus definitely resurrected from the dead.’
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    @Risico007

    Level with me here.

    Science can neither confirm nor deny that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Cthulhu or even the Pagan gods exist. Is our scientific understanding of the universe then flawed, simply because we cannot show you conclusive evidence of the existence or non-existence of these creatures of folklore? I believe the point you're trying to make is that because we -- whether you're talking about scientists, atheists or both -- neglect the supernatural altogether, our science is an unreliable, disputable and ignorable tool in our attempt to understand how the universe works.

    Then you go on producing your moribund point about "what if evidence were found...?". Well, what then?

    A) Then it would have to be empirical evidence, which is the only evidence that matters in this case.

    B) Science would consider it, test it further and eventually move for a major scientific paradigm shift.

    C) The "supernatural" would no longer be "supernatural"; it would be a part of nature, only better understood now than before. It would be like squeezing lightening and magnetism into the framework of science all over again.

    However, what if hard, empirical evidence were found that the Pagan gods are real? Cernunnos, Lugh and Cailleach would be proven real, unlike your god. Then what? Would you willingly accept them? Or would you rather dismiss the evidence and go on the way you always have?

    Of course you're relaxed, thinking: this ridiculous hypothetical situation isn't going to happen. Well, @TheWizardOfIce, @patb, @Ludovico, ... and myself are fairly confident your hypothetical cases will never present themselves either. Evidence that a dead man resurrected and walked again? The "what if" is barely audible over the sound of our laughter. Suddenly a "what if" regarding Santa and the Tooth Fairy isn't so silly any more. So rather than hide behind those incredibly unlikely "what ifs", you might consider the fact that in 300 years, science has come to the point of understanding "90 %" -- your assertion -- of the universe. Where has your religion come in terms of proving that dead Jesus walked again? "Because women reported it." How does that compete with probing the Higgs field at CERN, putting a man on the Moon, building lasers, or any of the other millions of successes in those "90 %"? (In my more humble estimation, I'd say we understand, at best, 4 % of the universe. That number is actually based on something but I will leave it up to you to figure out what that is. Either way, even at 4 %, it would still be 100 % more than what for example YE Creationists understand about the universe.)

    Furthermore, you seem to think that because science hasn't reached the absolute 100 % of its potential knowledge yet, this somehow grants religion permission to make outrageous claims about miraculous, supernatural events to have taken place. This is both tragic and hilarious. Let's see why. Science can cure many stages of many cancers, but not all. Not yet. So by your logic, we should just give up trying to do better and rely on prayer instead. After all, if medical science can cure only up to, say, 70 % of all cancers, the other 30 % demonstrates it is entirely imperfect, leaving an open path for alternatives, like prayer, to be taken seriously as well. If 70 % is the best we can do, wow, we're doing it wrong! (\sarcasm)

    Religious fundis used to say, "Science can cure most cases of the flu but they can't cure cancer, ergo...". Now they say, "Science can cure most cases of the flu and many stages of many cancers, but not all, ergo...". What will we be hearing in 20 years from now, I wonder. "Science can cure all known cases of the flu and all known cancers, but who knows what's next and then what? Huh?" We can keep playing this game forever. I'm counting on reason to figure out our best tools for understanding the universe. With an ounce of optimism, I can easily satisfy myself that we're headed there.

    Except in countries where it is illegal or unpopular to look for answers outside one's religion. I would say "in 3rd world countries" but -- oh well -- there's still the USA, where more than 50 % of all inhabitants believe in angels...
  • Posts: 15,125
    I cannot add more to what Darth said.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,117
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 4,016
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

    It does puzzle me when you see a sportsperson praying before a game. Apparently its quite logical that their God who allows war, famine and floods will be influential in helping them win a game of football.....
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

    It does puzzle me when you see a sportsperson praying before a game. Apparently its quite logical that their God who allows war, famine and floods will help them win a football match.....
    And South American matches even more bizarre as they all pray yet someone still loses. Yet it never dawns on any of them that perhaps prayer is utterly pointless?
  • royale65royale65 Caustic misanthrope reporting for duty.
    Posts: 4,423
    Bet you were praying that Karius wasn't such a klutz hey @TheWizardOfIce?
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Risico007


    Of course you're relaxed, thinking: this ridiculous hypothetical situation isn't going to happen. Well, @TheWizardOfIce, @patb, @Ludovico, ... and myself are fairly confident your hypothetical cases will never present themselves either. Evidence that a dead man resurrected and walked again?

    You need to change that to 'completely', otherwise you are suggesting that you don't have 100% confidence in your argument.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,117
    royale65 wrote: »
    Bet you were praying that Karius wasn't such a klutz hey @TheWizardOfIce?
    Praying was the only option because all the evidence suggested before the game he’s an absolute joke and so it proved.
    NicNac wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    @Risico007


    Of course you're relaxed, thinking: this ridiculous hypothetical situation isn't going to happen. Well, @TheWizardOfIce, @patb, @Ludovico, ... and myself are fairly confident your hypothetical cases will never present themselves either. Evidence that a dead man resurrected and walked again?

    You need to change that to 'completely', otherwise you are suggesting that you don't have 100% confidence in your argument.
    It’s not an argument to be debated. It’s a position based on evidence. If there is evidence it gets evaluated and then becomes part of our knowledge or is debunked and rejected.

    A scientist can never be 100% about anything until it is proven because the whole point about the unknown is we don’t know.

    Only the religious mind has the arrogance and hubris to claim to be 100% right.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Indeed.

    @NicNac

    I would say I'm completely certain but the essence of intellectual honesty in science is that one always leaves room for the possibility our views may have to change over time. If we claimed 100 % certainty, science would be dogmatic in nature.

    The reason many people think that scientists are absolutely sure about everything is that our educational system has failed. Too many science teachers present their textbook science as the absolute truth when very often it really isn't.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Great news about Ireland. @NicNac Nobody with a bit of intelligence and critical thinking can honestly he is "completely" certain of something. We assess things as true with various degrees of certainty. Thus a God is not entirely and completely impossible... just highly unlikely given our understanding of the universe and of the lack of evidence for its existence.
  • Posts: 9,847
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

    I wonder if you could go back in time would you tell your parents to abort you after all with no reason to live no point to life why bother having the experience at all?

    As for Darth as it would happen I have a few hints I want to talk to you about miracles that happen in 2018 that are NOT being looked at by anyone in the science community but with it being Memorial Day weekend I have too much to do but I will get back
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 4,016
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

    I wonder if you could go back in time would you tell your parents to abort you after all with no reason to live no point to life why bother having the experience at all?

    As for Darth as it would happen I have a few hints I want to talk to you about miracles that happen in 2018 that are NOT being looked at by anyone in the science community but with it being Memorial Day weekend I have too much to do but I will get back

    So if you don't believe in a Deity there is no point to life and you have no reason to live?

    What a mental comment.

    I love life and experiencing all the wonders of this planet. I just don't believe in invisible beings in the sky.
  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Indeed.

    @NicNac

    I would say I'm completely certain but the essence of intellectual honesty in science is that one always leaves room for the possibility our views may have to change over time. If we claimed 100 % certainty, science would be dogmatic in nature.

    The reason many people think that scientists are absolutely sure about everything is that our educational system has failed. Too many science teachers present their textbook science as the absolute truth when very often it really isn't.

    You were talking God’s existence and about Jesus raising from the dead, not science, when you made that remark. I see no reason why you shouldn’t be 100% certain of it all being religious bullshit, but you only gave us ‘fairly certain’.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    @NicNac, fair enough. If you put it like that, I will state that I'm 100 % certain. :)
    Risico007 wrote: »
    I wonder if you could go back in time would you tell your parents to abort you after all with no reason to live no point to life why bother having the experience at all?

    @Risico007
    The Wiz is living his life to the fullest. He knows that when he's dead, it's over. Why waste time worrying about an afterlife that one shall never have?
  • Posts: 15,125
    Risico007 wrote: »
    Fine words indeed Darth. I eagerly await @Risico007’s YouTube response.

    Meanwhile another nail in the coffin of the Church’s influence: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/27/ireland-to-start-abortion-law-reform-after-historic-vote
    The spotlight on Northern Ireland now. Sorry Draggers but religion and it’s medieval practices under the cosh down your way some time soon. Perhaps you could move to Damascus?

    By the way did anyone notice Mo Salah having a good pray before the CL final? How did that work out for him religionists? I suppose you’ll tell me that’s because he was praying to Allah not the one true God.

    I wonder if you could go back in time would you tell your parents to abort you after all with no reason to live no point to life why bother having the experience at all?

    As for Darth as it would happen I have a few hints I want to talk to you about miracles that happen in 2018 that are NOT being looked at by anyone in the science community but with it being Memorial Day weekend I have too much to do but I will get back

    While I was an accident, I was still a wanted child.
This discussion has been closed.