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Anyway, did you enjoy it?
I had forgotten. I have seen that, too.
Yes, I enjoyed it for the most part. Good cast, some interesting relationship themes, exquisite photo compositions and a minimalist soundtrack that doesn t disturb.
Still, I found it to be maybe 40 or 50 minutes too long. All of the above doesn t justify the length imo, although it isn t really that long. I just found myself bored during certain stretches.
But, so, Memento... I think it's very much re-watchable. I've certainly enjoyed it each time I've seen it. I agree with Brady that it's not a one trick pony at all, that it's much more than just the story folding backward. The structure is fascinating to me and very well done, but also the actors all do a great job and the characters are interesting and complex, and reveled to us little by little, and in many cases to be very different from what they first seem. There's so much more to this movie than the backwards way it's being told, but even that structural device never gets old for me. This was probably the 4th time I've seen this movie and I still think that aspect is brilliantly done directing and editing-wise, how the dialogue is written, and multiple little details. I was grinning from pure pleasure watching it unfold. Already knowing the story doesn't diminish that pleasure for me - it never does with movies I really enjoy. The enjoyment just changes, and one notices more details and watches the movie (this and any other one really likes) in a different way after the first time.
Watching this I also wondered whatever happened to Carrie-Ann Moss, and looked up her filmography. Apparently she has still worked, I just haven't seen much of her work despite the ridiculous amount of movies I watch. I wouldn't mind seeing more of Guy Pearce, either, but at least I've seen him in more stuff than her - mostly in small supporting roles, though.
@Tuulia, I agree. In the end the argument that Memento's story can't be enjoyed multiple times already felt like a weak one from any standpoint and so I knew I'd be arguing in its favor on that front.
By the logic of viewing that film as a one-trick pony, or feeling that it's only good the first time when you don't know what's coming, then every movie we see is useless after the first time we watch it, and of course that's not true. On this Bond forum we had only three people collectively watch over a hundred Bond films and then some in one year, so clearly the experience of watching a film despite knowing it backwards and forwards doesn't detract from the movie or how we enjoy it. The metaphor about Catherine and Leonard discussing the act of reading a book you already know the story of is Nolan's way of showing us that he knew how some would view his film, as something that stales over time, but he offered through Catherine the perfect viewpoint of someone who loves stories no matter how many times they read them.
As we ourselves have seen, we can rewatch the film endlessly, as we do all the films we like, because knowing what's going to happen isn't a factor in hampering the enjoyment of it. It's the experience of the thing, and all the thoughts and feelings it brings up in you as you watch that constantly replenishes. No matter how many times I watch the film, moments like the Sammy Jankis reveal or the ending where Leonard makes his choice will always impact me, because they are simply well crafted, directed and acted scenes that have a ripple effect. It's a testament to the film that I still get those reactions, and that my brain is still connecting dots and looking for clues despite my first watch being long passed. As viewers we're always looking for new information, new details, and a new way to experience the familiar. That's filmmaking, and that is why we can eat up the same films so many times with the same enjoyment.
Yet multiple responses to the film descended of the reaction you described. And it is a reaction first and foremost; any 'weak' argument would stem from that initial reaction.
The argument could potentially be flawed, but the reaction itself cannot be invalid. If the idea of MEMENTO not being rewatchable is in fact 'weak' then proving its weakness does not necessarily dismiss the flaw from which the reaction stemmed. The reaction's cause may simply have been misidentified.
Something is at work here.
Where would this reaction come from? What's at its core? Is it a distaste for the film as whole manifesting itself through one avenue of criticism? Could be. Or it could be something more specific that we haven't hit upon just yet.
From my perspective, it's most probably a couched criticism of the film's overt gimmickyness. This is partly the fault of the filmmaker, partly the viewer. 'Rewatchability' as a general descriptor of any film is inadequate, besides. To me it mostly signifies a plain lack of desire to watch the film again, stemming from a fundamental lack of enjoying it. However, I can only see 'rewatchability' being sufficient in relation to certain aspects of a certain type of film in which the 'rewatching' changes the way the viewer perceives the flow of information from the storyteller. SIXTH SENSE and FIGHT CLUB, for example. Having thought about it, I think MEMENTO's overt playing with narrative tempts viewers into slotting it alongside films like the aforementioned. MEMENTO 'should' be like these films, in which narrative is deployed non-traditionally and the endings make you want to go back and see how the flow of information from the storyteller tricked you, but it's not; ergo there's a perception the film has failed in this regard.
Except MEMENTO is ultimately unlike these films. Not only is its mechanism of trickery (reverse chronology) revealed from the start but it is also fundamentally more traditional in the way it tells its story (i.e. a film that tells its story in reverse has been structured so that that reversed story fits the formal patterns of a story moving forwards).
Perhaps it is from this disconnect that the criticism arises.
My reaction fell in line with what the film presented in a meta fashion and from the thoughts I read from people that amounted to them feeling the movie wasn't worth going back to after all had been revealed. We can highlight the "trick" of Memento as the thing that, once known or experienced, makes it stale, but I come back to every other movie out there. If a film doesn't have a trick, or if it does, I don't think much in the grand scheme changes. You either like the film or you don't, like you enjoy any film or you don't, and the watchability of the movie from your perspective is predicated on that level of pleasure. It all comes down to viewer experience, no matter what, and if the time for them was well spent.
My only line of argument was in retort to those that felt Memento had nothing more beyond the "trick," where I saw a wealth of great thematic storytelling, subtle acting, a great layering of ideas, etc. that makes the experience more than just the gimmick that the movie does and that I thought anyone could look at and say, "that was well done regardless of that other thing (meaning wacky structure)." I wasn't criticizing those that don't want to see it again because they don't like it, just arguing for why the reaction I saw doesn't hold up for me or make sense to me, as I see more at play. Some will, some won't, some may be bored to death by the end. What it is is what it is.
I worded it perhaps awkwardly in a fashion that made it seem like I was heavily opposing a subjective experience, when I was simply questioning one aspect of the film and its effect (the structure of the film's story). In the end I think that, whether one comes back to Memento or not, there's just as much a chance they aren't because they simply didn't enjoy the experience and not for the structure or "trick" of the film that ultimately feels no more damning to me than the style or content of any other film that doesn't have it. The crucial factor is if the film's style and content is for you, and if the experience of the thing provides an element you want to go back to. A film with a wacky structure and strange style may captivate despite its quirks, just as a more traditional and relaxed film may not for perhaps not having the style you like, or any style. I just didn't agree with the watering down of Memento to one thing it does, when so much more is still there to offer someone, and in the end it provides me with a positive experience I will repeat many times in the future.
We're into the week of spoilers, so you can give your opening thoughts. Once we figure out those that haven't seen it, I guess that will dictate how soon into spoilers we go.
I've had a particularly packed week and haven't really been around home long enough to watch anything, but I'll try to see this one within the next day.
Pros:
love the first act
great acting
incredible cinematography
great ending
it has a sort of novelty to it
Cons:
The film slows down so much in the second act and the beginning of the third act that I don't know if I could ever rematch this film
Conclusion.
This is a great film that I can recommend for everyone to watch but I will probably not be buying this one on blu ray because I dont know if I could rewatch it. It has very slow pacing towards the middle of the film which really took me out of it and its lack of conclusion- while it is cute-makes the film purposeless in a sense. It is mysterious and kept me engaged though. And the cinematography was some of the best Ive ever seen. so Its fine. I will definitely check out la notte
6/10
(I didnt give a number to memento but if I was to I would give it a 10)
again, I really did like this film but theirs not enough meat in the story to satisfy me the way I wanted to be.
My thoughts have not changed, I think this is a marvellous film and it's one of my favourite films ever. I'd go for top 20 if I have to put a number on it.
Nevertheless, many scholars have pointed out, much more eloquent than I ever could, what makes this films so special. My review is only a collection of some of my thoughts whenever I watch it.
Here it goes, hope you enjoy it:
L'AVVENTURA (Italy/France 1960)
Dir. by M. Antonioni
Michelangelo Antonioni's first chapter of his trilogy on modernity and its discontents is subtle, moving, worrying, mysterious and occasionally funny.
One of Italy's many influential contributions to filmmaking, "L'Avventura" in particular is a fascinating piece of cinema. The film's simple plot is merely a device for character development and a heavy focus on imagery and atmosphere.
For instance, even though the scenery must have been absolutely astonishing in full colour, black-and-white presents no distractions. Every detail in every shot is equally important. Antonioni uses imagery as metaphors for the state of mind of his characters.
A group of spoiled, rich Italians pass an island during the initial boat trip when someone says: "I never understood islands. Surrounded by the sea, poor little thing." The beauty of these moments is that the metaphor is never explained because Antonioni thinks highly of his audience.
Also, typical of its time "L'Avventura" hints at recent Italian history. In one particular scene the protagonists drive into a desolated place full of rectangular buildings, a town built as part of the failed project to stimulate the economy of Southern Italy, and Ferzetti's character observes: "If nobody is here, why did they built it?" At another point a woman is asked if she had a mother, she responds: "She was half Austrian. But I had one."
Nevertheless, Antonioni also has time to insert a few well-paced moments of humour. They are not many, but especially because of that they are effective. It's a lesson maybe for modern filmmakers how less is sometimes more.
Speaking of today's cinema, in a way "L'Avventura" is a reminder of how shallow and clichéd films are these days. Especially romantic movies. Here there is no obvious shouting, or blaming, or cursing, it is hidden in its masterful dialogue. During one of the final scenes someone remarks: "One should never wish to be melodramatic." I concur.
I take it you and @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 agree on this, and I agree as well. That's ultimately what it always surely comes down to. After all, one person's infinitely rewatchable movie can be barely watchable once to somebody else.
Yes, it is unlike them. Those two are fascinating in a different way.
Yes to all of this. You two write better than I do, but I'm happy to just agree. :)
I'm also having a packed week (I was going to watch this on Sunday, but, er, I was too hungover). Still keen to catch it but it may not be until the coming weekend.
Half way through it so far. Very interesting neo-noir. I'll give my full thoughts once I finish it.
This may be a stretch, but I'm a tad worried I may have inadvertently spoiled something for myself. This is all dependent on how twisted The Detective becomes, but the name of the main detective may have been an allusion used for a certain character from Twin Peaks... if you get my drift. I know how much Lynch likes to reference his favorite films.
I'll find out if I'm right or not tonight!
Sorry to bleed some of the MEMENTO discussion over to the new film -- just some cleaning up to do
Thanks for clearing up (at least for me) how you were coming at it. I agree with what you said here (even if in the end we arrive at different conclusions on the film itself). In my initial reaction, my big criticism was that I found its structure the most interesting thing about it — not to say there were not other things that could be interesting, only that they were for me, less interesting that the structure itself. And to be fair, MEMENTO's central premise is a hefty one to overcome. That the "wealth of great thematic storytelling" you found in it managed to transcend such an overt conceit speaks volumes of the film's success for you, I would think.
Thanks to the discussion here my position on the film has been both clarified and become more well-considered; talking things over has helped me refine exactly why I think what I think, and I've definitely got more an appreciation for MEMENTO on the whole that goes beyond my initial take (@0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 your essay gave me a couple ideas regarding the film I hadn't conceived of, and that I shall keep in mind till the next viewing).
So far this Film Club seems to be doing its job. ;)
@Tuulia Yes, I think we're all three in agreement on 'rewatchability,' a term I'll be much more carefully deploying in future.
---
On to L'AVVENTURA! Planning to watch either tonight or tomorrow. Really looking forward to it. The 60s are my favorite decade of film, and this is one whose absence in my 60s watchlist has loomed large.
@MajorDSmythe, having the film of the week in the title is a good idea, and one I don't think I thought of before.
I did want to keep a schedule of films in my opening post and when spoilers for them start, but have waited to get any more film suggestions from people before doing it (as I'd have to update the list every time someone made a suggestion). I guess I'll just take the leap and get it over with, as I don't think those that haven't suggested one are going to anytime soon.
@Strog Ah! Thank you for getting me back on the right track. In my attempt to avoid spoilers for Memento and La Notte, I didn't notice the change.
I'll take another opportunity to name all those members who still have yet to make a film selection for the list, including:
@Birdleson, @Shark_Of_Largo, @DarthDimi, @Tuulia, @Lancaster007, @Risico007, @bigladiesman, @Some_Kind_Of_Hero, @Mrcoggins and @ClarkDevlin
The next several films in the list are spoken for, giving us a big three month window where we know exactly what we'll be watching week to week, so there's no great rush in picking a movie. That being said, members selecting a movie early in the process does ultimately help folks in tracking down/buying the chosen films ahead of time so that they can be best prepared to watch them and enter into the discussion when the moment arrives. I don't want to be strict about when film suggestions must come in, but as a general courtesy a sooner rather than later approach is preferred.
Theme song – how catchy. Anna’s relationship with her dad looks strained. Can they drive to the ocean any faster?
-Once the Aeolian Islands were all volcanoes.
-When we came here together 12 years ago, you said the exact same thing. Hahahahaha!
Go away you filthy animal. Poor Cozimo suffers at the hands of Raimondo. :( Luckily Patrizia’s treatment of him is much better :). The line ‘How boring. All this fuss over a swim.’ in Italian sounds like ‘Who f***in’ know ya?’ to an American ear. After they see the shark: “I would have died. With its horrible face and all those teeth.” For some reason that line is funny to me. Then, a moment after: Oh, Anna, have some cognac. Cognac: the recipe for getting rid of near shark death. Did Anna just offer Claudia her shirt? I found that funny too.
I never thought of sharks being nice. The yacht’s name is Oriana. Sandro and Anna aren’t married yet and they’re already fighting? Maybe don’t get married. “You always have to dirty everything.” – As the Beatles say, “It’s a dirty story of a dirty man, and his clinging wife doesn’t understand.” “The weather’s changing.” “Please, Giulia. There’s no need to be so didactic all the time. I can see for myself that the weather is changing.” – RUDE! All she was doing was stating a fact. I state facts all the time. Why do Raimondo and Patrizia stay aboard the Oriana while everyone else has a walkabout the island? Was this island a set or real location? That mist must feel good on his face. Claudia saying ‘This island is so beautiful,’ reminds me of my aunt who has a habit of drawing out the word ‘beautiful’ so that it turns into BEAAAAUUUUUUTTYYFULLLL! Our whole family mocks her for it. Is Sandro going to break down the door? Should it be getting dark soon? Is that a tornado? Nope, a waterspout. And now a rockslide? What weather phenomena will come next? Haha! Claudia just stuck her hand in a bunch of bird poop. Giulia says “He’s done nothing but put me down today” which to an American sounds like “f***ing mortificaniocchi”. How long have they been searching? ‘There’s no point in wasting any more time’ – Well, I’d be gone to report her missing after like a half-hour. “If it rains, I’ll buy an umbrella.” – You will? On an island? I don’t think so. Her presence might be a hindrance?! What’s he smoking? I wonder if “darn it” is really what they say. Oh, a single lantern to light a tiny shack. “What was she trying to achieve?” (by making a shark story)? Oh, I don’t know…fun, did you ever think of that? Where the heck’s Panarea? Sunrise or sunset? Sunrise I guess. Claudia talks about preventing the event. Why, does she think Anna killed herself now? “Is 5:00 in the morning early?” Umm…yeah. Oh, music! Don’t! That water could be dirty, you ditz! Ah, finally! A boat. Don’t look at me like that Marshal. There’s no need. – This line really need to be here? Push harder over there! – That’s what she said! “Yes. There it is.” There what is? “Let’s hope they don’t find her. They would find her dead.” – WOW! Way to stay positive and make Claudia burst into tears. A girl is missing and you’re concerned about a vase? Looks like the Disco Volante. All Anna had in her suitcase was a Bible and Tender is the Night?! By the way, Tender is the Night is by my favourite author.Who’s helicopter? “Thank you anyway.” – Not encouraging. Is that a real boat? Ooh, a kiss! Ettore is a cool name! Sister sick for a year?! Who is this? The boat crew? I’m waiting for Ferzetti to say “Basta!” Train is ‘train’ in Italian. Weird. Where is she going? Three days have passed? She’s looking in on a random couple? Creepy. What’s going on? “My skirt came unstitched.” – How scandalous. “What do you feel when you’re painting? A shiver.” HUH?! Who shivers when they paint? All Goffredo draws is boobs. Goffredo’s hair is very “now”. What kind of car is that? It’s nice. Are they in a ghost town? Desert sex :) Choo Choo! Not a great place to sleep. “Is she from up north? Is she French?” I think the question they should be asking is “Is she the only girl in town?” Boy, they sure do love her. How much is 4 million lira? It appears he’s forgotten about Anna. Nice Fiat. Where’s what? Nice song. I’m convinced she just broke the fourth wall with her hands in her pockets. “Hey Santa!! Santa!” Who is playing the piano? RAPE!!! Am I ever going to find out what happened to Anna? Robot is ‘robot’ in Italian. Hmm… Oh, sleeping on a mound of clothes. Reminds me of my aunt. Very untidy bedroom that one. Wow, that’s very strong language for 1960: Whore. She looks like me when I can’t sleep. Claudia playing with her nose reminds me of Tatiana playing with her hair in FRWL. Love the long shots in that corridor. What a weird ending!!!!
Next, a question:
Why did he knock the ink over?
Lastly, some pictures
Neville Longbottom in 1960? WHAA!!
Simply stunning!
Very late 1940s early 1950s look here
Where is this?
Should this appear by awesome in the dictionary?
Well, there you go. Now I'm sure @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 will take a deeper analytical look than I did, but as much as I like reading about that sort of thing, I'm no good at spotting it.
END TRANSMISSION
I look forward to seeing what people think of it. Not only for the unique role it gave Sinatra, but also for how the film itself challenges expectations as a noir and general film.
Also I find it interesting how the Golden Age of cinema actors transitioned into the modern age, films around the late sixties and early seventies commented on the changing times and the demise of the old Hollywood. Older Golden age actors felt out of time in modern cinema which often adds an extra layer to film
@Fire_and_Ice_Returns, I think you'll really like The Detective from that perspective. It is at the bridging point between old Hollywood and Hayes Code censorship and the 70s and how the films of that era would go on to do things (in respect to content and maturity) that films couldn't do beforehand. Even in the late 60s you'll find many ways in which The Detective was one of the bold and beautiful films testing the boundaries of the Hayes Code and what movies could be, but also what they could say. After you watch the film you'll know what I mean by that last part, as the socioeconomic and political nature of the film is perhaps its most shocking and startling, because so much of its story remains true today all these decades later.