The MI6 Community Film Club For Cinephiles [On Hold]

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2017 Posts: 7,136
    @PropertyOfALady An amusing read, my friend ;). Did you enjoy the film?

    Trying to respond to some of your observations:

    - She says: Ma che noia. Quante storie per un bagno, which literally means: How boring, so many stories just for a swim.
    Noia is Italian for boredom, sounds a lot like know ya ;)
    - As far as I know, nothing was filmed on set. Panarea is part of the Aeolian Islands in the Tyrrhenian Sea.
    - Non fa che mortificarmi oggi.
    - The umbrella line is not meant to be taken literally, he means that he'll be fine.
    - I think Corrado's line to the Marshal expresses his overall annoyance with the situation, every little thing makes him cranky because he is frustrated with what is going on and with his own situation as well.
    - In my opinion, she complaints about the vase being broken because she's a materialistic person, she also doesn't seem to care about much as she earlier proclaims hardly anyone can make her smile except for her dog.
    - Train in Italian is treno.
    - I think it's a Lancia Aurelia.
    - She's not French, just from Northern Italy ;)
    - The Italian Lira was not a very high currency, in 2002 4 million lira was 2000 EUR (I guess that's about 2500 USD).
    - Robot is a Czech word invented by author Karel Čapek, it's the same word in most European languages. Probably the only Czech word which has made it into the English language, still though they're a lot better off than the Dutch, who have apartheid.
    - I fell in love with Monica Vitti as well, only natural mate :))
    - That's in Noto, Sicily.

    Hope I was of some help.
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    I did enjoy the film! It was on a few 1001 movies to see before you die lists.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,168
    Found The Detective for £2 one of the few Sinatra films I am not familiar with, an early score by Jerry Goldsmith also great stuff.

    I look forward to seeing what people think of it. Not only for the unique role it gave Sinatra, but also for how the film itself challenges expectations as a noir and general film.

    Also I find it interesting how the Golden Age of cinema actors transitioned into the modern age, films around the late sixties and early seventies commented on the changing times and the demise of the old Hollywood. Older Golden age actors felt out of time in modern cinema which often adds an extra layer to film

    @Fire_and_Ice_Returns, I think you'll really like The Detective from that perspective. It is at the bridging point between old Hollywood and Hayes Code censorship and the 70s and how the films of that era would go on to do things (in respect to content and maturity) that films couldn't do beforehand. Even in the late 60s you'll find many ways in which The Detective was one of the bold and beautiful films testing the boundaries of the Hayes Code and what movies could be, but also what they could say. After you watch the film you'll know what I mean by that last part, as the socioeconomic and political nature of the film is perhaps its most shocking and startling, because so much of its story remains true today all these decades later.

    I thought as much also I am a fan of film Noir I am looking forward to watching it, in the right dramatic role Sinatra can be very good Manchurian Candidate is probably my favourite film he was in.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    I did enjoy the film! It was on a few 1001 movies to see before you die lists.

    Glad to here that :)
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    I'd never heard of it before now. I think this thread is like an exploration of cinema.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    Posts: 25,168
    I'd never heard of it before now. I think this thread is like an exploration of cinema.

    I agree this thread will introduce me to quite a few films I have never come across before
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    If you liked this one I would most certainly suggest the other two films of this trilogy which also feature Monica Vitti: La Notte and L'Eclisse.

    Both are somewhat more difficult to find unfortunately.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    If you liked this one I would most certainly suggest the other two films of this trilogy which also feature Monica Vitti: La Notte and L'Eclisse.

    Both are somewhat more difficult to find unfortunately.

    How do they rank among themselves?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    If you liked this one I would most certainly suggest the other two films of this trilogy which also feature Monica Vitti: La Notte and L'Eclisse.

    Both are somewhat more difficult to find unfortunately.

    Are they connected beyond that?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Strog wrote: »
    By the logic of viewing that film as a one-trick pony, or feeling that it's only good the first time when you don't know what's coming, then every movie we see is useless after the first time we watch it, and of course that's not true.
    Of course. But it's equally not true that the logic would necessarily work as you detail. The term 'one-trick pony' does not quite equate to 'only good the first time when you don't know what's coming.' All unseen films depict events we don't know are coming. But not all feature a 'trick.'

    Yet multiple responses to the film descended of the reaction you described. And it is a reaction first and foremost; any 'weak' argument would stem from that initial reaction.

    The argument could potentially be flawed, but the reaction itself cannot be invalid. If the idea of MEMENTO not being rewatchable is in fact 'weak' then proving its weakness does not necessarily dismiss the flaw from which the reaction stemmed. The reaction's cause may simply have been misidentified.

    Something is at work here.

    Where would this reaction come from? What's at its core? Is it a distaste for the film as whole manifesting itself through one avenue of criticism? Could be. Or it could be something more specific that we haven't hit upon just yet.

    From my perspective, it's most probably a couched criticism of the film's overt gimmickyness. This is partly the fault of the filmmaker, partly the viewer. 'Rewatchability' as a general descriptor of any film is inadequate, besides. To me it mostly signifies a plain lack of desire to watch the film again, stemming from a fundamental lack of enjoying it. However, I can only see 'rewatchability' being sufficient in relation to certain aspects of a certain type of film in which the 'rewatching' changes the way the viewer perceives the flow of information from the storyteller. SIXTH SENSE and FIGHT CLUB, for example. Having thought about it, I think MEMENTO's overt playing with narrative tempts viewers into slotting it alongside films like the aforementioned. MEMENTO 'should' be like these films, in which narrative is deployed non-traditionally and the endings make you want to go back and see how the flow of information from the storyteller tricked you, but it's not; ergo there's a perception the film has failed in this regard.

    Except MEMENTO is ultimately unlike these films. Not only is its mechanism of trickery (reverse chronology) revealed from the start but it is also fundamentally more traditional in the way it tells its story (i.e. a film that tells its story in reverse has been structured so that that reversed story fits the formal patterns of a story moving forwards).

    Perhaps it is from this disconnect that the criticism arises.

    This makes plenty of sense.

    Anyway, I watched L'Avventura, my first Antonioni film. I went in blind, not being too familiar with Antonioni or the types of movies he made. I suppose L'Avventura qualifies as an existentialist drama, one that takes an special focus on the transient, ephemeral quality of relationships. The whole film seems to be about people looking for something to do: exploring an island, scuba diving, spilling ink on drawings, writing numbers on paper and falling in love and out of it. The film lingers on these things; there is a meandering quality to it, a feeling of killing time. As for the people in it, they all seem ever so slightly disillusioned and bored. Anna is bored of Sandro --she wants him but she also wants freedom--, Giulia and Corrado are bored with each other, Patrizia and Ettore seem distanced --there seems to be something between Patrizia and the scuba diver, but they're also bored. These are people confronted with emptiness and perpetual unsatisfaction.

    It seems to me that the point of view of the film on this subject is presented most clearly and strongly in its ending, in which Sandro --who didn't shed a single tear at the disappearance of Anna, as was pointed out by another character-- breaks down into tears, presumably after finally recognizing his own tendency to dispose of a woman at the sight of the next one. But there is no relief, no satisfaction and no hope of change in his discovery, just the realization that things are this way. Therefore, the film is ultimately disheartening and gloomy in its worldview. The lack of lasting commitment on behalf of Sandro seems to be hinted at at earlier points in the film, when he says to Anna that they can talk about something once they get married, when he proves reluctant to say "I love you" to Anna, and when he half-jokingly says "I don't love you" to Claudia.

    There is also some sort of metaphor regarding blonde and brunette hair, in the scene with the chemist in Noto and when Claudia and Patrizia try on some wigs. I'm not sure what it means, but perhaps it alludes to the interchangeability of the women in Sandro's life? Also, right before the ending, Claudia says to Patrizia that she feels Anna is back. I would venture a guess that "Anna" turns out to be herself, in that she has been displaced from Sandro's life; for him, Claudia is now gone and forgotten, like Anna before her.

    Visually, the movie is fairly striking, in its locations and in how it's shot and framed: the rocky island, the pristine architecture of Noto, the church, and the balcony in the hotel at the end are all distinctive and memorable settings. I found the scenes in the island quite "tactile", too, like I could almost reach out to touch the rock and wash my hands in the water.

    And last but not least, let me say it's good to see Gabriele Ferzetti in a leading role, in something that isn't Bond and C'era una volta il West. There is always a touch of detachment to him in this role; he isn't quite the protagonist; instead, it's Anna in the first scenes and Claudia afterwards-- they are the emotional centers of the film.

    I didn't "enjoy" watching this film too much --in the sense of finding it stimulating in the moment, whether emotionally or intellectually-- but it does seem a bit more "enjoyable" --and stimulating-- in hindsight. My two cents.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2017 Posts: 7,136
    @JamesBondKenya Well, La Notte is my favourite, L'Avventura ranks second and L'Eclisse comes in third. I won't say last because this is probably my favourite trilogy of all time. If one can call it that anyway.

    Which brings me to @Thunderfinger 's question. The characters are different and the stories have no connection with each other but they are all subtle existential drama's.

    @mattjoes Excellent observations. I've watched it a few times now and I must say, contrary to you, I do enjoy it while I watch it. The film, while slow, goes along nicely in my opinion. The characters are excellently written and each time I am fascinated by their actions and their dialogue.

    I also like the subtlety of Antonioni. These films have things to discover even on their third or fourth viewings. For instance, I never thought about what you suggested about the wigs even though it appears to be a very logical observation.
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    We never find out what happens to Anna.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Memento takes the top spot so far.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    @GoldenGun Well, I found the film to be a reasonably pleasant experience, though less engaging once they leave the island and it begins to switch gears, narratively speaking. But that's just me and my preference for stories that are engaging in a more dramatic, striking way. The film is definitely an interesting one, and it portrays that sense of aimlessness very well. I'm certainly happy I watched it!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    @Thunderfinger While Memento is a good film it didn't change the face of cinema ;)

    @PropertyOfALady At release the film was not well received due to the fact that people expected a run-of-the-mill mystery film. The story is quite consciously subordinated in favour of characters and themes.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    So what do we think, did she kill herself?
  • Posts: 17,759
    Couldn't find anywhere online to see L'Avventura. Where can I see it?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    putlockers.fm
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,813
    I watched the Criterion version of L'Avventura on Amazon Prime last night here in the US. Two day rental.

    Versions on YouTube are severely screen cropped.
  • Posts: 17,759
    putlockers.fm
    Thank's for the link!
    I watched the Criterion version of L'Avventura on Amazon Prime last night here in the US. Two day rental.

    Versions on YouTube are severely screen cropped.
    Yeah, noticed that (quite common on full length films on Youtube?). Had a Prime subscription some time ago - and could resign my subscription, but I don't think there's to many titles available here (yet). Don't know about L'Avventura, though.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    putlockers.fm

    Now you have confirmed my suspicions of where you watch all your films....
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I only saw L Avventura there so far, but I aim to see The Detective there as well.
  • Just watched The Detective, and even after ten hours of traveling and a hangover that would drop King Kong (flying, airport lounges, and alcohol don’t go together), I really enjoyed the film. Frank Sinatra films recently became favored around here, even though they are somewhat dated, still I hadn’t seen this particular one until now. Gritty and dark with Sinatra’s hard boiled grounding, definitely my kind of film. Earlier this year I watched Never So Few, and Sinatra’s Manchurian Candidate so The Detective is a nice addition to the collection. Many of the films that came out in the 60’s opened up that moral can of worms that earlier films merely brushed past, instead offering a subtle hint of some social taboo, but skirting the concrete reality. It’s questionable if that in your face reality needs to be presented as entertainment, but then it is the role of the artist to reflect society, and not shy away from difficult topics. Many thanks @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 for the offering. Unfortunately missed the earlier L’Avventura but I noticed that people were already talking about The Detective.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited September 2017 Posts: 13,978
    Have this thread moved on to The Detective already?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Have this thread moved on to The Detective already?

    @MajorDSmythe, people can start watching The Detective, but spoiler discussion and discussion in general won't start until next Monday. I know some still have yet to see L'Avventura, including myself, so no reason why the talks on it can't continue as others watch the next film in the week ahead. I'll introduce The Detective in full sometime in the next week, in preparations for when we get into it and I'll be doing an accompanying film essay like I did with Memento as I think it's a film with a lot to say and offer.

    Apologies for falling off the grid in regards to this thread. Without going into too much the past week hasn't given me much time to sit down and focus on watching a film. A family friend died this week and so I was heavily involved in the funeral service and am now helping the late woman's family clean out her house while attempting to find appraisers for much of what she had hoarded away (she was in her 90s and had many antiques). I'll try to see L'Avventura within the next day or two and post quick impressions just to move things along, as most of the work at the house is now complete and my time more flexible.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    My sincere condolences @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    My sincere condolences @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    It's fine @GoldenGun, but the words are appreciated. I didn't know the woman that well, but she lived right in my neighborhood since I was born, across the street, and my mother had been giving her home care when she and her husband of 70 years started to really get infirm, and she stayed on as an unofficial nurse of sorts for the woman after her husband died and she went through ups and downs in health, including a bad stroke, until this week when her heart just stopped beating. My mother starting looking after her not long before her own mother of the same generation passed away, so obviously she grew attached to the woman and in many ways I think she latched onto her as a surrogate mother that she needed when she so missed her own.

    Naturally I helped my mother at times with the woman, and so over a period I got to know her more and care for her health and general well-being, but of course didn't get attached as my mother did. This week was a rough one for her, as you can expect, so I just tried to make it as easy for her as possible and have been helping clean out the house with the woman's son as we all want the process to be over (the emotional and physical mix is an exhausting one).

    I've been through this whole situation a lot recently, with my own grandfather and grandmother dying a year apart from each other, so I guess I've trained myself to push on. Each got sick and couldn't go on any more at the end there and the surviving family had to find a way to move on after their passings. Because they were both not well of health like this woman at the end of her road, in the end you just feel lucky that they didn't have to suffer for longer in their particular situations when their time comes.

    But what's done is done, and the world must keep spinning.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    Never easy to lose a person we know but you handle it well @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 684
    My condolences to you and your mother and the woman's family, as well, @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7. These things are always tough getting through.

    I had a busier than expected weekend, and was only this morning able to finally watch L'AVVENTURA.

    Great pick, @GoldenGun. Glad to have finally had the impetus to watch it.

    Here are a few scattered thoughts:

    * Much of the film seemed concerned with the loneliness of the modern age. Not only that we are lonely but that we want to be lonely.

    * At the heart of this, and likewise at the heart of the film, is Anna. Her disappearance manifests this idea. She tells Sandro how, after a month apart from him, she became used to being alone. Thereafter, 'enlightened,' she actively seeks isolation and succeeds. @Thunderfinger, you asked ...
    So what do we think, did she kill herself?
    ...and this is why I don't believe so. Some of things at work in L’AVVENTURA seem to depend more on her survival than on her dying. Dying would almost be too easy. Actively abandoning her friends in favor of something (shallow but existent) rather than of nothing seems to mirror better the rest of the characters and their inability to engage in meaningful relationships. The narrative clues that she survived are almost beside the point; though, the many hints that she may have hopped a passing boat (immediately after the group discovers she’s missing, a boat is heard in the background) are enough, storywise, to persuade me that she's snuck away, thematic construction aside.

    Then of course you also have the trail of clues that Sandro and Claudia pursue (each of which possibly holds weight), yet by the end neither Sandro or Claudia really cares much to know what happened to Anna, having arrived at perhaps the payoff tip as to her whereabouts. If she is alive, then they're inability to confront her is made poignant. Because I think they do know. They know they'll find her. Except they don’t want to face the truth of it, anymore than they want to face the truth of their own relationship — or, for that matter, no more than anyone in the film wants to face reality.

    For example, when Anna's father arrives on the scene to help search, Claudia presents him with the two books she found in Anna's luggage. One is the Bible. The other is Tender Is the Night by Fitzgerald. Anna's father picks up the Bible and uses it to reason that because of its contents Anna should be fine. Of course he would select that one. Tender Is the Night features a girl who suffers a breakdown as a result of the relationship she had with her father. Imagine what conclusions using its content Anna's father would have to draw.

    * On a purely technical level, I noticed Antonioni stitching together in one shot what could have been done in multiple shots. Great economy. Also a very classical Hollywood approach that lends itself to a film with as much romance as this.

    * Antonioni’s blocking. Excellently realizing his main concern re: loneliness and isolation. So many emotional moments are captured either out of frame (Claudia’s response to Sandro returning to the hotel room to tell her that he loves her) or captured at some distance from the actors (as opposed to the ‘close-up’ shot, which is more often associated with capturing emotional moments) and/or out of view within the frame itself (both woman have their back to the camera when Anna reveals she made up the shark attack; Claudia is at a distance and turned away from the camera when she breaks down crying in the rain, subsequent to Anna’s disappearance; and so on; it’s all over the film).

    At one point Patrizia even says something to the effect of, “You should hope to avoid melodramatic undertones.” Which is both what Antonioni is doing and, brilliantly, what he’s commenting on (i.e. that these people are much too disconnected from one another). No relationship in the film is successful. Corrado seems to hate his wife Giulia, who then goes on to have an apparent fling with the 17-year-old artist. (She asks Claudia to leave the room at one point, saying something like, “What do I have to do to be alone?” To which Claudia replies, “Shut the door.” — which is a nice metaphor for how closed off everyone has made themselves). Sandro can’t keep a relationship. Anna literally abandons everyone. Patrizia casually fends off Raimondo. She and her husband seem to get along well enough, though they sleep in separate rooms. Claudia, for her part, says that she doesn't know Sandro, though she thinks she’s in love with him. We’re also frequently presented with men staring at women (and a few cases of the opposite). Either way, there’s a lot of gazing and never any interacting/communicating/speaking.

    Antonioni also uses the landscapes to show this idea. The ocean, the island that’s basically a rock, the flatlands Sandro and Claudia travel in search of Anna. These are open, vast, wide landscapes that loom and overwhelm and diminish and isolate the characters. (Again, it helps many of his shots are long).

    The only moment which goes against any of this (that I can recall) comes at the end of the film, with a ‘close-up’ (only comparatively to the rest of the film; it’s basically a medium shot) of Sandro crying. Importantly, this is where the film is resolving itself dramatically. We finally see some real emotion. Claudia hesitates with her hand, unsure whether to comfort Sandro or not, deciding whether she should, so to speak, ‘shut the door.’ She does not. This is why the ending is, I think, hopeful.

    * Dualities.

    (1) Anna/Claudia. Claudia is wearing Anna's dress post disappearance; Sandro ‘replaces’ Anna with Claudia; Claudia tries on and nearly goes out in public wearing a brunette wig. Meanwhile, it is implied that Anna, to disguise herself, may have died her hair blonde.

    (2) The two young artists. One does impressionistic nudes, the other is more classical, sketching architecture.

    (3) Sadro and the young classical artist. The younger artist is essentially the Sandro of twenty years ago. Aside from sketching architecture, the young artist also wants a fight, and Sandro mentions how he himself fought many times when he was young.

    Significantly, Sandro discovers this more classical sketch 'abandoned' — he then spills ink all over it, more or less 'completing the picture' of how his own future was set to turn out. One could also argue that randomly splattering the page with ink renders this classical 'art' modern, in the Pollock sense.

    * Aside from Sandro spilling the ink, the scene on the rooftop is probably my favorite of the film. Both of them involve architecture. Maybe a just love the parallel that Antonioni goes for, 'drawing' one between it and relationships.

    Standing on the roof with Claudia, somewhat paralleling his attitude on marriage (“The picture of marital bliss,” he says of the quarreling chemist and his wife), Sandro says of the buildings around them that they were built long ago and built to last. Now, he says, buildings crumble after twenty years — that's modernity, relationships included. (Note that Claudia rings the bells and hearing another says they are responding—i.e. communicating).

    In this same scene, Sandro speaks of aspiring to design beautiful things, but giving up on that dream for a more sensible career (money). In this same way he gives up the ideal of a loving relationship with Claudia for a night with a prostitute (money).

    *Tellingly, a little later, we find out that Sandro, before acquiring his dream of designing beauty, aspired as a little boy to become a diplomat, which is the de facto manifestation of connecting and communicating.

    EDIT: I didn't want to read through the other comments before writing my own, so just a few points I'll respond to.
    GoldenGun wrote:
    A group of spoiled, rich Italians pass an island during the initial boat trip when someone says: "I never understood islands. Surrounded by the sea, poor little thing." The beauty of these moments is that the metaphor is never explained because Antonioni thinks highly of his audience.
    Excellent. I missed this line. I don't think I'd yet become fully aware of what Antonioni was going for. One of the reasons I think the film will stand up for another watch at some point. And I agree that it is nice to have these metaphors strewn about the film to be discovered. Beats the heck out of having the characters standing around talking about it.
    mattejoes wrote:
    These are people confronted with emptiness and perpetual unsatisfaction.
    Succinctly summarizes in less than ten words what I blathered on about for a whole post. ;)
    mattejoes wrote:
    But there is no relief, no satisfaction and no hope of change in his discovery, just the realization that things are this way. Therefore, the film is ultimately disheartening and gloomy in its worldview.
    Have to disagree with you here, though, @mattjoes. I think the combination of his crying (at last some emotion) and Claudia's deciding to put her hand on him ends things on a hopeful note.
    There is also some sort of metaphor regarding blonde and brunette hair, in the scene with the chemist in Noto and when Claudia and Patrizia try on some wigs. I'm not sure what it means, but perhaps it alludes to the interchangeability of the women in Sandro's life? Also, right before the ending, Claudia says to Patrizia that she feels Anna is back. I would venture a guess that "Anna" turns out to be herself, in that she has been displaced from Sandro's life; for him, Claudia is now gone and forgotten, like Anna before her.
    I noted the same thing, though I feel yours is more well-observed, especially regarding the interchangeability between woman in Sandro's life. (Though I do sense some weird dynamic on a personal level between Anna and Claudia (aspiring to what the other has, perhaps?). Again, another watch would help.

    Also, the idea of Anna's return coinciding with Sandro's moving on to the next woman is magnificent. Fine spot there.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Signing up for Filmstruck to watch L'Avventura tonight!
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