Bond's Final Mission : AVTAK or ?

2

Comments

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The character not the actor.

    Hm, all right. Depends on B25.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,118
    If one considers NSNA canon, there is a case to be made that’s Bond final mission with Connery ‘retiring’ alongside Domino.

    However, always quite felt LTK had a ‘last film’ vibe to it. Maybe more ‘end of an era’ feel though. Classic Bond finishes there in 1989 with the final tunes of Patti LaBelle’s end title song. Modern Bond quite appropriately starts with the synth beats of the GE gunbarrel.
  • Posts: 11,189
    There’s definitely a nostalgic, rather « sleepy » feeling to AVTAK.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I would hope a line like "That is not the soap" wouldn't be the end of the final mission of Bond's career.

    There is never a final mission in my, excuse the term, view.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited October 2018 Posts: 18,270
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I would hope a line like "That is not the soap" wouldn't be the end of the final mission of Bond's career.

    There is never a final mission in my, excuse the term, view.

    Quite true. That would be most unfortunate.

    I also agree that there is no "final mission" with James Bond. It just goes on and on, like EastEnders.
  • edited October 2018 Posts: 684
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    However, always quite felt LTK had a ‘last film’ vibe to it. Maybe more ‘end of an era’ feel though. Classic Bond finishes there in 1989 with the final tunes of Patti LaBelle’s end title song. Modern Bond quite appropriately starts with the synth beats of the GE gunbarrel.
    @GoldenGun I'd go with AVTAK as the end of the classic era. Some of this is subjective interpretation of AVTAK: Bond's age and the idea of the him coming full circle (the Nazism evil rising again).

    But I think the least that can be said of AVTAK is, it's a real recognition of time passing. Obviously Rog's age, but with that the length of his tenure, and even a recognition that he really could have been playing Bond since 1962. With him go certain ties to an old movie glamour. Further, conservative 80s Britain is pretty much the complete opposite of 60s Britain; you could reasonably argue that Glen's first three films were heritage films but not TLD or LTK.

    Admittedly there are obvious reasons to see GE as the start of the modern era: (1) change in tone between LTK and GE, (2) the change of lead actors, (3) the change in producers, and (4) the six year gap.

    But the change in tone between two films is nothing special (FRWL/GF, OHMSS/DAF, MR/FYEO). So I think maybe instead of 'tone' the right word would be 'energy.' Fans see GE as re-invigorating energy into the franchise, energy which possibly could be described as American. However, I think there's a case that LTK does this; maybe a less obvious one that TLD does it beforehand.

    TLD really seems closer to GE in attitude than to any of the Bonds before it. I know fans like to include it with the more 'gritty' entries in the franchise (I disagree) but even granting the point I think that the combination of energy, lead actor, and style and amount and focus of action alone precludes it from the usual placement alongside FRWL et al. LTK is also vastly different than what came before. (Ironically, GE bases itself on being a remix of what came before, and is seen as the start of the 'new' point.)

    In terms of lead actor change, Brosnan and Tim are very different but Glen has stated that if Brosnan had starred in TLD the film would've been the same. In this regard I don't think the film misses Brosnan.

    In terms of producers, Cubby did take more of a backseat. GE was in many ways Barbara and MGW's show. But it's also noteworthy that TLD was the first Bond film on which Barbara was credited as a producer, and that the interest the film had in its main character carries more forward into the present than backward into the past.

    In light of all this I just feel like the six-year gap between LTK and GE is a little too convenient of a line in the sand. I see more of a through-line going forward from TLD than backward. I think TLD is to GE in the modern era what DN was to GF in the classic.
  • Posts: 19,339
    After watching AVTAK I stand by my opinion it’s Bonds last still.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I agree with a lot that's been said here. It has the feeling of an end of an era. Is that Roger's era? Bond's? Not sure but I recall in the theatre watching the film that we were seeing a send off. I can't remember if they had also announced Lois leaving as Moneypenny but that may have added to the feeling that an era was over.

    As for the character, I can see where you are going with this @barryt007 you cite that this incarnation of Bond could have been the same Bond we saw back in 1962. I always felt the shoe horning in of Tracy into LTK as a bit of a stretch. I remember thinking how the hell was this Bond (Tim's) able to be married to Tracy in 1969. It just felt wrong. Yet when Anya brings it up to Bond in TSWLM I don't shudder, and even when we see her grave in FYEO it feels okay.

    To your point of Bond's age, I remember thinking of his struggles in this film. When May Day somehow wraps him up in the string during the Tower sequence and his struggle to get out of the string. When he has trouble dusting off the couple of thugs in the plant at the stables. When in TMWTGG he handles 3 thugs with no real trouble.

    You may have redeemed this film in my eyes!
  • edited January 2019 Posts: 19,339
    I hope so @thedove !!

    I always view it as Bonds final mission and it really enhances the enjoyment of the film,and you really get behind Bond,knowing the odds he is up against.

    You can see that when he finds out that Tibbet has been killed,the amount of young,strong people all arriving on horses and cars,practically surrounding him at the Rolls Royce.

    He knows he is possibly out of his depth due to age,as Zorin points at at city hall later.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Looks like Bond 25 will be it, then.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Unless he Rogers another one.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    thedove wrote: »
    I always felt the shoe horning in of Tracy into LTK as a bit of a stretch. I remember thinking how the hell was this Bond (Tim's) able to be married to Tracy in 1969.

    An even bigger stretch would occur 10 years later in TWINE when Tracy is indirectly referenced in a conversation between Brosnan's Bond and Elektra.

    I get around it this way: I consider that Connery, Lazenby and Moore all essentially played the same Bond with all the same adventures from DN in 1962 to AVTAK in 1985. Then when the Dalton era started the series got a partial reboot for the ages of both Bond and Miss Moneypenny. Dalton Bond experienced all the DN-AVTAK adventures but they happened more recently for him. When Brosnan took over, he and Dalton essentially played the same Bond with the events of TLD and LTK retroactively occurring between the events of the GE PTS and the remainder of the GE film.

  • AleanderAleander Kavala, Greece
    Posts: 33
    Or.... NSNA.
    It's the only one that feels designed as a farewell story. It's Bond at one final mission, and as such after a period of inactivity. It's Bond ending his service and living it out with Domino at his retreat at the Bahamas. It's as happy an ending as any Bond could ever get.
  • AleanderAleander Kavala, Greece
    Posts: 33
    thedove wrote: »
    I always felt the shoe horning in of Tracy into LTK as a bit of a stretch. I remember thinking how the hell was this Bond (Tim's) able to be married to Tracy in 1969.

    An even bigger stretch would occur 10 years later in TWINE when Tracy is indirectly referenced in a conversation between Brosnan's Bond and Elektra.

    I get around it this way: I consider that Connery, Lazenby and Moore all essentially played the same Bond with all the same adventures from DN in 1962 to AVTAK in 1985. Then when the Dalton era started the series got a partial reboot for the ages of both Bond and Miss Moneypenny. Dalton Bond experienced all the DN-AVTAK adventures but they happened more recently for him. When Brosnan took over, he and Dalton essentially played the same Bond with the events of TLD and LTK retroactively occurring between the events of the GE PTS and the remainder of the GE film.
    I share the feelings and thoughts of this. However, my only difference would be, that the Dalton/Brosnan Bond experienced some of the Connery/Lazenby/Moonraker adventures, but not all. In my mind, Dr. No through Thunderball, OHMSS, TSWLM and FYEO pretty much still occured as you mentioned, but as you said much closer to him than depicted in the original "continuity".
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    Wouldn't it be cool to see a film tackle the age of an older Bond. I really like that about NSNA Connery's Bond is old and grey and yet there he is enjoying the action and trying his best. Again we see him struggling with Lippe, we seem him have trouble with the delightful Fatima Blush and even Largo himself.

    I would love to see this in Bond 25, but sadly I don't think that it's in the cards. They teased it a bit in SF but I always found that a bit much. He wasn't gone for long how could all those skills erode that fast.

    I really think this universe and timeline stuff can get a bit much. Outside of Bond's wife being mentioned and in FRWL referencing DN I don't think there has ever been a lot of continuity between the films. It was only when we got to CR that the producers have attempted to build on the character and add a complex continued story line.
  • AleanderAleander Kavala, Greece
    Posts: 33
    I dunno, I always thought TLD was a soft reboot after AVTAK. It never made sense to me that Dalton could EVER have been Moore, which is why I was more than annoyed by the appearences of Gogol and the Minister of Defense.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    thedove wrote: »
    I always felt the shoe horning in of Tracy into LTK as a bit of a stretch. I remember thinking how the hell was this Bond (Tim's) able to be married to Tracy in 1969.

    An even bigger stretch would occur 10 years later in TWINE when Tracy is indirectly referenced in a conversation between Brosnan's Bond and Elektra.

    I get around it this way: I consider that Connery, Lazenby and Moore all essentially played the same Bond with all the same adventures from DN in 1962 to AVTAK in 1985. Then when the Dalton era started the series got a partial reboot for the ages of both Bond and Miss Moneypenny. Dalton Bond experienced all the DN-AVTAK adventures but they happened more recently for him. When Brosnan took over, he and Dalton essentially played the same Bond with the events of TLD and LTK retroactively occurring between the events of the GE PTS and the remainder of the GE film.

    I agree 100% and have posted this theory several times. I've had a long time, not adopted by many, that there have been 2 re-boots, with three different incarnations of Bond. Now I know there inconsistencies, actors who have appeared in multiple incarnations, such as Judi Dench, and other things that muddy the waters, but I base my theory on two things, the ages of the actors and the fact that Bond in always in the present day.

    With that said, Connery, Lazenby and Moore are the same James bond; although played by different actors, the Bond in Dr. No is the Bond in A View to a Kill. This does make AVTAK bonds final mission , of that incarnation.

    Dalton and Brosnan are the next, with the Bond we see in Living Daylights being the same Bond in Die Another Day.

    Finally there's Craig.

    And the thing is the same names and events can exist in different timelines/incarnations. Tracy existed in Dalton's universe but it wasn't the same Tracy as in the Lazenby film. Look at M; the same actress plays M but they are not the same M. Craigs M died; theoretically if they were to do a one off with Brosnan, Dench could return as that M.


    It's entirely feasible that in Craig's incarnation , he has dealt with Dr. No and Goldfinger but we didn't see those stories.


  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    Likewise EVERY Bond actor has the Casino Royale story supporting him, @talos7. It's built in.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,206
    Likewise EVERY Bond actor has the Casino Royale story supporting him, @talos7. It's built in.

    Absolutely.

  • Posts: 1,917
    thedove wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be cool to see a film tackle the age of an older Bond. I really like that about NSNA Connery's Bond is old and grey and yet there he is enjoying the action and trying his best. Again we see him struggling with Lippe, we seem him have trouble with the delightful Fatima Blush and even Largo himself.

    I would love to see this in Bond 25, but sadly I don't think that it's in the cards. They teased it a bit in SF but I always found that a bit much. He wasn't gone for long how could all those skills erode that fast.
    Yeah, that's yet another problem with SF, thinking Bond has aged considerably and lost what made him Bond. Then it all gets forgotten and he's the same guy again with the sharp skills back suddenly.

    TWINE does the same thing when Bond's shoulder is injured in the pretitle and referred to a couple times and then it's conveniently forgotten and it doesn't affect him the rest of the film.

    We don't need a superman, but at the same time he is and if the creators are going to go that route by giving him things to humanize him then have the courage to take it all the way. I guess that's part of Cubby's mandate that nobody wants to see Bond as an amateur.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    NSNA was definitely a 'final' Bond film, but it was just too 'winky' for me. AVTAK was my idea of Bond on his last mission. SP seemed a bit like that to me, but then they got Dan back for another.... Until they do a serious definitive 'last mission' movie (which I could definitely see as a one-off starring Jason Isaacs ), AVTAK is it.
  • AleanderAleander Kavala, Greece
    Posts: 33
    I honestly never got a "final mission" vibe from AVTAK - quite the opposite in fact. Business as usual, carry on.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Despite Moore’s age, to me AVTAK seems very much a classic, standalone Bond entry that doesn’t scream “final mission.” Whether or not Bond 25 is Craig’s last, I hope the approach is similar and it isn’t emphasized as a “final mission.” That idea has been done to death.
  • AleanderAleander Kavala, Greece
    Posts: 33
    Where? Not in Bond, certainly.

    LTK implied he'd go back to the service, and nothing in DAD, the only other time he'd have reason to leave, implies that he would. Only SP really implies this, as in Skyfall he was simply incapacitated and implied to have been in amnesia prior to returning to the service.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Despite Moore’s age, to me AVTAK seems very much a classic, standalone Bond entry that doesn’t scream “final mission.” Whether or not Bond 25 is Craig’s last, I hope the approach is similar and it isn’t emphasized as a “final mission.” That idea has been done to death.

    Well, we got the answer to that.
  • Posts: 12,466
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Despite Moore’s age, to me AVTAK seems very much a classic, standalone Bond entry that doesn’t scream “final mission.” Whether or not Bond 25 is Craig’s last, I hope the approach is similar and it isn’t emphasized as a “final mission.” That idea has been done to death.

    Well, we got the answer to that.

    Yup x) NTTD is obviously as “final mission” as it gets. Thread resolved!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mattjoes wrote:
    I know no one is going to believe this now, but Craig, despite all the recent "Craig Not Bond" stuff, will end up making four more films. In the last one, Bond is going to become a father and die. Laugh all you want, but time will prove me right you incredulous bastards.

    I told you.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,423
    I think LTK was the last Bond film. In terms of continuity and such. Since then there has been no reference to Tracy Bond, Brosnan's Bond didn't get a Felix. If we were looking at them as a series of films I would stack it like this:

    DN---LTK

    GE---DAD

    CR---NTTD

    The only thing that kinds of spoils it is that we have the same M for the last two series. Course that also happened in the first films, but given the character was re-imagined in the last group of films this is a bit weird.

    Course CR series also references a car given to Bond in 1964 with an ejector seat so who the hell knows at this point. I have come to wish the producers give the Aston a rest with the next fellow!
  • Agent_Zero_OneAgent_Zero_One Ireland
    Posts: 554
    thedove wrote: »
    I think LTK was the last Bond film. In terms of continuity and such. Since then there has been no reference to Tracy Bond, Brosnan's Bond didn't get a Felix. If we were looking at them as a series of films I would stack it like this:

    DN---LTK

    GE---DAD

    CR---NTTD

    The only thing that kinds of spoils it is that we have the same M for the last two series. Course that also happened in the first films, but given the character was re-imagined in the last group of films this is a bit weird.

    Course CR series also references a car given to Bond in 1964 with an ejector seat so who the hell knows at this point. I have come to wish the producers give the Aston a rest with the next fellow!
    Just because Tracy wasn't explicitly referenced in the Brosnan era doesn't mean he didn't experience that.

    My own segmentation would be Connery - Moore, Dalton - Brosnan, Craig.
  • I’ve always pondered whether MR was original Bond’s final mission. Bond literally ascends into the heavens and we do not see him return.

    DN-MR feel like the one, true series of Bond films to me. Everything after that feels a bit like officially-recognised fanfic.
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