Is modern Bond action lacking?

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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    The car chase in Quantum makes you feel like you are with Bond in the Aston Martin, I love that pre title sequence.
    And I must say I hate it. As much as I hate the "Moscow" tunnel car-chase scene in that Jason Bourne movie, whichever it was. The quick-cut editing takes me out of what's happening completely, and the entire scene is, for me, a total waste of extremely good cars and lots of perfect film stock. It's just pretending to show action where there isn't any, and replace it with irritating the viewer into feeling there is any. The opening scene embodies what's wrong with QoS, while the mistakes persist (the chase scene in Siena is another example), and is a harbinger of the mess to come.

    Give me different editing, and QoS might be a top-level Bond movie. But this way, it's really barely mediocre, or less.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    The car chase in Quantum makes you feel like you are with Bond in the Aston Martin, I love that pre title sequence.
    And I must say I hate it. As much as I hate the "Moscow" tunnel car-chase scene in that Jason Bourne movie, whichever it was. The quick-cut editing takes me out of what's happening completely, and the entire scene is, for me, a total waste of extremely good cars and lots of perfect film stock. It's just pretending to show action where there isn't any, and replace it with irritating the viewer into feeling there is any. The opening scene embodies what's wrong with QoS, while the mistakes persist (the chase scene in Siena is another example), and is a harbinger of the mess to come.

    Give me different editing, and QoS might be a top-level Bond movie. But this way, it's really barely mediocre, or less.
    I can appreciate your perspective, but I personally really like the QoS car chase. It's visceral and very brutal. However as you rightly noted there is no question that it borrowed very heavily from 2005's landmark Bourne Supremacy, which was the first film to use that approach to put the viewer in the thick of the collisions, particularly in an almost 'second occupant' punch to the gut manner.

    The difference here is that they used that technique in a sweeping classic Bondian context, using a classy Aston at Lake Garda rather than a Lada in Moscow.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    I must admit that i find the falling house in Venice scene doesnt belong in the film,its just noise.
    I can see they wanted Vesper to die,and the actual death and aftermath are excellent,but im sure they could have found a better way to do it.

    Yes, as soon as Le Chiffre falls over dead, really the only remaining plot point to get to is the final reveal, and yet there's still about half an hour of actual movie left to sit through. It's just too long and elaborate for the story they have left to tell, and I felt the same way the first time I watched it in the cinema in 2006.
    Agreed. I hardly watch CR to the end anymore. I'm pretty much done after Le Chiffre bites it.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    If you really want to use OHMSS as an example, wouldn't you say the producers gave in and weren't exactly bold when they chose to have a blaring version of the Bond theme play out the credits rather than play out with the We Have All the Time in World instrumental?
    I believe I read that this was intentional, in order to finish the film on an uplifting note as the audience leaves the theatre. I think it was Hunt's idea. They pretty much did something similar, but in a more drawn out way, with the CR epilogue (Bond, James Bond).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The Bond theme doesn t make the death scene any more uplifting imo.
  • Posts: 17,757
    RC7 wrote: »
    The Venice part is where I start looking at my watch, usually. I remember when watching CR at the cinema that people around me began to lose interest at that point, as well.

    Boring people.

    Maybe, but I really think it's an unnecessary sequence - and a boring one as well. Just a way to shoehorn an obligatory action sequence, as @ToTheRight writes above.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    M
    RC7 wrote: »
    The Venice part is where I start looking at my watch, usually. I remember when watching CR at the cinema that people around me began to lose interest at that point, as well.

    Boring people.

    Maybe, but I really think it's an unnecessary sequence - and a boring one as well. Just a way to shoehorn an obligatory action sequence, as @ToTheRight writes above.

    Naturally, I disagree.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I actually didn't mind the Venice action sequence. However, I would've preferred if Bond had been there after Vesper was done away with. Yes, I know, I did read the earlier comment on how the novel's variation of the element works for prose but not on film et al, but to me, Bond storming in to that Venice house with vengeful intentions rather than feeling played by Vesper would've been better.
  • Posts: 2,918
    The letter on screen for the audience to read--static camera, or it pans down timed for reading. Or Vesper's voice-over. Bond's voice-over.

    A pre-Haggis draft had Vesper leave a video confession for Bond to view. This could have been intercut with Bond's reactions, flashbacks from Vesper's perspective and revised ones from Bond's, etc. Better in my view than having Vesper die in a gimmicky action sequence.
    Again, to me the producers and filmmakers were bold many times over. From the reboot itself and casting Craig. And not least to the changes for Bond's torture and later Vesper's death. They improved from book to film.

    Not unless that involves diluting every setpiece from the book. Interminable poker (a game Bond never plays) instead of baccarat, a torture sequence with a quip-happy instead of broken Bond, Vesper getting snuffed in the amazing sinking house, and a happy ending with Bond catching the bad guy instead of the shocking bitterness, humiliation, and fury of the very last words. Judged strictly as a movie CR is pretty good; as a Fleming adaptation I found it a letdown and inferior to OHMSS or GF, films that really did improve on the books.
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    I really am surprised that they didn't go with the famous last words of the novel.

    "The bitch is dead now."
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 1,661
    SPECTRE does feature (arguably) the coolest helicopter scene ever seen in film history. Bond fighting a guy inside a helicopter that does a 360 degree roll. You can't get more 'awesome' than that. I suppose the issue with SPECTRE is starting the film with such an insane sequence - how do you top it? The car chase could have been a bit more violent, perhaps. Bond and Hinx shunt each other rather than driving around as if sightseeing!

    The ending could have had more destruction of London. For example, Blofeld decides to take out several London buildings in his attempt to kill Bond. Most superhero films have lots of property destruction so it's nothing new in action films but Blofeld could have gone completely nuts and decided to destroy part of the Thames, perhaps Parliament, Big Ben.

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    I really am surprised that they didn't go with the famous last words of the novel.

    "The bitch is dead now."

    They did.
    On the yacht, when Bond is talking to M, going through Vespers things.
  • Posts: 4,044
    The successful aspect of the Venice scene in CR is that Bond gets to see her kill herself, which hits him a lot harder than a letter.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited August 2018 Posts: 8,400
    vzok wrote: »
    The successful aspect of the Venice scene in CR is that Bond gets to see her kill herself, which hits him a lot harder than a letter.

    I don't think so. More melodramatic perhaps, more gratuitous, but the point shouldn't be the tragedy of her death, but the sting of her deception - hence "the b×tch is dead".

    I think there is something very potent about Bond finding her after it's too late, and piecing it together in his mind.
  • Posts: 17,757
    RC7 wrote: »
    M
    RC7 wrote: »
    The Venice part is where I start looking at my watch, usually. I remember when watching CR at the cinema that people around me began to lose interest at that point, as well.

    Boring people.

    Maybe, but I really think it's an unnecessary sequence - and a boring one as well. Just a way to shoehorn an obligatory action sequence, as @ToTheRight writes above.

    Naturally, I disagree.

    giphy.gif
    Can't agree on everything.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    The Spectre car chase is abysmal.

    Remove the phone call with Moneypenny and have that happen after.

    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Nope just decided to film two dancing cars at 1 A.M and thought hmm this will suffice.

  • Posts: 17,757
    The Spectre car chase is abysmal.

    Remove the phone call with Moneypenny and have that happen after.

    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Nope just decided to film two dancing cars at 1 A.M and thought hmm this will suffice.

    As I mentioned in an earlier comment, Bond hardly looks like he's in danger in that sequence - which hardly offers anything else than a few nice shots of the city. That would have changed if Bond was outnumbered, having more bad guys chasing him, making the sequence more tense.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Revelator wrote: »
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
    The fools reportedly spent £24m on this chase alone.
  • Posts: 17,757
    bondjames wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
    The fools reportedly spent £24m on this chase alone.

    …and yet they managed to make the worst car chase ever, IMO.
  • Posts: 4,044
    vzok wrote: »
    The successful aspect of the Venice scene in CR is that Bond gets to see her kill herself, which hits him a lot harder than a letter.

    I don't think so. More melodramatic perhaps, more gratuitous, but the point shouldn't be the tragedy of her death, but the sting of her deception - hence "the b×tch is dead".

    I think there is something very potent about Bond finding her after it's too late, and piecing it together in his mind.

    In the novel yes, but that would be flat on screen.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    It could be better but with Sam Mendes and presumably Purvis and Wade gone, I suspect it will be better.
  • RC7RC7
    edited August 2018 Posts: 10,512
    bondjames wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
    The fools reportedly spent £24m on this chase alone.

    …and yet they managed to make the worst car chase ever, IMO.

    They should be called to the Hague for a war crime Imo.
  • Posts: 17,757
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
    The fools reportedly spent £24m on this chase alone.

    …and yet they managed to make the worst car chase ever, IMO.

    They should be called to the Hague for a war crime Imo.

    Huh?
  • Posts: 4,044
    RC7 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Keep Hinx but also add some more cars chasing after him. Hard to believe that no one else went after. Throw 3-4 more cars with some machine gun fire.

    Very hard to believe indeed. Bond has just crashed the meeting of a supremely powerful criminal organization--and what does it do in response? Send a single car after him. Pathetic! The old Spectre would have sent a fleet of autos, an army of assassins on vespas (this is Rome after all) and motorcycles, and would have had an inside man with the police send several squad cars too. The entire city should have been against him, and the chase should continued after Bond junked his car. I wonder if the chase was originally downsized after the film's budget went out of control.
    The fools reportedly spent £24m on this chase alone.

    …and yet they managed to make the worst car chase ever, IMO.

    They should be called to the Hague for a war crime Imo.

    Car crime?
  • pking_3pking_3 Punting under the Bridge of Sighs
    Posts: 33
    To answer the initial question, no; its not lacking. At least, not in a way that would be remedied by trying to accomplish more MI-style action (nor, as I've tolerated over the years Bourne-style action, or Fast and Furious style action, and so on...)

    But then again yes; it is lacking, when compared to Bond action of yore in two ways:

    1. Organic, plot-driven action that hides any setpiecing could and should return. While Bond is actually not that flawless at this pursuit as a whole, when Bond action scenes flow naturally from plot, driven by earned tension, they sing. When the feel like its time to get our money's worth for what we invested in the Brocolli stage at Pinewood...it then produces a tacked on, artificial feel. Contrast the timeless success of mere train car fisticuffs in FRWL to one of the largest ever filmed blow-it-ups in SP.

    2. Probably impossible in our current/Craig era...but not impossible forever...but a Bond movie could re-embrace the classic/self-aware satiric action that makes some scenes evergreen, even if not impressive per se. This isn't easy, as its what made the SP Rome car chase suffer, while it allows the TSWLM Sardinian car chase a smile-producer to this day.

    So, in conclusion Bond action does not lack when compared to MI's. It lacks at times when compared to Bond, though.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    pking_3 wrote: »
    So, in conclusion Bond action does not lack when compared to MI's. It lacks at times when compared to Bond, though.
    Perfect.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Birdleson wrote: »
    vzok wrote: »
    I think Bond should have an increase in spying ahead of an increase in action.

    Exactly. There is far too much mindless action. Bond films work best as thrillers, not action films.

    Again, perfect.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I miss seeing Bond check into a hotel, relax, inspect the room for bugs, set up traps for the inevitable bad guy who is bound to break in, etc. I want more of this, I feel like it's been missing from the entire Craig era.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited August 2018 Posts: 17,804
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I miss seeing Bond check into a hotel, relax, inspect the room for bugs, set up traps for the inevitable bad guy who is bound to break in, etc. I want more of this, I feel like it's been missing from the entire Craig era.

    And once again, perfect.
    Look, I love Brosnan's movies, especially TND, but Bond, REAL Bond is not an action hero. He's that agent ripping the lining out of his pockets to keep his hands from freezing or that agent using his shoes to keep from being electrocuted... he's an idea guy that uses intelligence first, and *CAN* be physical when necessary....
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,020
    Two action scenes in SP suffered from a distinct lack of creativity.

    The Rome car chase is dull. Nothing happens apart from some pretty naff humour. They are two gorgeous looking cars but the chase has no real threat or menace.

    The plane chase is well filmed but its such a stupid idea. What was it exactly that Bond was trying to achieve? By sheer luck he destroys all the cars and Madeline somehow survives.

    A the same time the PTS is just brilliant and the train fight is one of the best fight scenes in the series.

    The brief shootout at Blofeld's crater isn't bad but yet again there's little danger and Bond kills all the guards like he's playing a computer game.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Two action scenes in SP suffered from a distinct lack of creativity.

    The Rome car chase is dull. Nothing happens apart from some pretty naff humour. They are two gorgeous looking cars but the chase has no real threat or menace.

    The plane chase is well filmed but its such a stupid idea. What was it exactly that Bond was trying to achieve? By sheer luck he destroys all the cars and Madeline somehow survives.

    A the same time the PTS is just brilliant and the train fight is one of the best fight scenes in the series.

    The brief shootout at Blofeld's crater isn't bad but yet again there's little danger and Bond kills all the guards like he's playing a computer game.

    And the finale is atrocious. Probably worst in the series.
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