Is modern Bond action lacking?

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Comments

  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,757
    bondjames wrote: »
    As an example of how stunts can be done today without necessarily putting the actor in harm's way, we need only look no further than the Nolan Bat trilogy. I'm sure Hardy wasn't up there in that plane, but that PTS scene in TDKR is one of the best of the last 20 years. Same goes for the truck flip in TDK. It's all about how it's done. Tension, suspense, etc. etc.
    I'm not the biggest Nolan fan, but those scenes are really good.
  • pking_3pking_3 Punting under the Bridge of Sighs
    Posts: 33
    patb wrote: »
    Some are quick to say that Cruise doing his own stunts is a gimmick but that screenshot IMHO proves that wrong.

    How does a photo of a gimmick prove that its not a gimmick?

    Or do you mean...you like Cruise doing stunts and you think the photo is cool, therefore it shouldn't be considered a mere gimmick?

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2018 Posts: 8,217
    pking_3 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    Some are quick to say that Cruise doing his own stunts is a gimmick but that screenshot IMHO proves that wrong.

    How does a photo of a gimmick prove that its not a gimmick?

    Or do you mean...you like Cruise doing stunts and you think the photo is cool, therefore it shouldn't be considered a mere gimmick?

    I'm not sure why anyone would consider either a gimmick. An actor who trains to do a stunt is no less admirable than a stuntman who does it. It is truly baffling to see how or why anyone would see it as a negative either way, especially if it's done well.

    You could use the word "unneccesary" to describe it, sure. But that's a moot point when it comes to entertainment. Everything is unneccesary. There are always other ways it could be done. But that's the way that it was done and in Cruise's case it's always pretty great.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    An actor going out of his way to make it look real (think Dalton on the truck) is great. An actor risking his life (think Cruise strapped to a jet) is above and beyond. Both are appreciated. What I DON'T appreciate, is CGIing an actor's likeness on a stuntman's face. Never looks good and takes me RIGHT out of the scene. I'd rather have the stuntman just making his face less visible from certain angles.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,757
    chrisisall wrote: »
    An actor going out of his way to make it look real (think Dalton on the truck) is great. An actor risking his life (think Cruise strapped to a jet) is above and beyond. Both are appreciated. What I DON'T appreciate, is CGIing an actor's likeness on a stuntman's face. Never looks good and takes me RIGHT out of the scene. I'd rather have the stuntman just making his face less visible from certain angles.

    Agree completely. And the directors and cinematographers of the Craig era should have been able to find a workaround for that CGI. It's strange they felt it looked OK enough to use.

    Also, CGI work cost money too. Wouldn't it be cheaper solving scenes like that with camera angles and far away shots of the stunt man?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    Agreed re: CGI face replacement. Though I've heard of it being used in other films where I hadn't noticed it. So, it can be effective if, like everything else, it is used well.

    It just seems to have been poorly used in Skyfall and Spectre, unfortunately.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    edited August 2018 Posts: 233
    For me, there is a dullness to many of Mendes' action scenes. He has a tendency to cram more than is necessary into what should just be a simple action scene (eg. the Moneypenny and comedy parts of the Spectre car chase, Bond/Q doing various things at the Alpine clinic etc - just two quickly off the top of my head).

    I've found the smaller fights to be the most exciting parts of Craig tenure, this is where he shines (the stairwell fight in CR is a particular favourite - it's brutal and has a good tension build, but also the opening toilet fight, the Slate fight, Hinx). I found Skyfall's fights a little dull (even though the visuals are nice and I appreciate Shanghai's high-rise scrap was done in a single shot). The larger stunt set-pieces generally haven't wowed me as much - save for the odd crane jump or Aston roll here and there. This is the area where it can be argued MI has now surpassed Bond...
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited August 2018 Posts: 25,154
    The CGI face my earliest recollection of it was watching T2: Judgement Day at the cinema, I think it's the first film to ever do it at least to a high standard.



    Back in 1991 it did not bother me I remember being impressed, though having bought every version of the film since and certainly the 4K remaster they have tweaked Arnies face projected on the stuntman to perfection.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804

    The CGI face my earliest recollection of it was watching T2: Judgement Day at the cinema, I think it's the first film to ever do it at least to a high standard.



    Back in 1991 it did not bother me I remember being impressed, though having bought every version of the film since and certainly the 4K remaster they have tweaked Arnies face projected on the stuntman to perfection.

    That was a mask on a stuntman.
  • Fire_and_Ice_ReturnsFire_and_Ice_Returns I am trying to get away from this mountan!
    edited August 2018 Posts: 25,154
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The CGI face my earliest recollection of it was watching T2: Judgement Day at the cinema, I think it's the first film to ever do it at least to a high standard.



    Back in 1991 it did not bother me I remember being impressed, though having bought every version of the film since and certainly the 4K remaster they have tweaked Arnies face projected on the stuntman to perfection.

    That was a mask on a stuntman.

    Just read a few articles you are correct, I always thought it was originally CGI testament to the mask though appears the stuntman suffered, they added CGI in later version.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    chrisisall wrote: »
    The CGI face my earliest recollection of it was watching T2: Judgement Day at the cinema, I think it's the first film to ever do it at least to a high standard.



    Back in 1991 it did not bother me I remember being impressed, though having bought every version of the film since and certainly the 4K remaster they have tweaked Arnies face projected on the stuntman to perfection.

    That was a mask on a stuntman.

    It was originally, yes. But they have touched it up in the most recent release with CGI.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Agreed re: CGI face replacement. Though I've heard of it being used in other films where I hadn't noticed it. So, it can be effective if, like everything else, it is used well.

    It just seems to have been poorly used in Skyfall and Spectre, unfortunately.
    Agreed. It can work if done properly. As an example, I believe it was used in CR when Craig ascends on the crane hook. A stuntman did that in a studio. Then they superimposed Craig's image on the stuntman and added the background afterwards. It worked, unlike the SF/SP attempts, which were too obvious imho.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    CR and QOS had awesome, intense action. The parkor chase, Miami sequence, stairwell fight, car chase, Slate fight, Tosca sequence, and hotel finale are real highlights. There's not a weak action sequence in either film.

    SF has a good PTS, the Shanghai fight is pretty cool, the train crash is good, and the finale is terrific. Overall, the film has solid and entertaining action but it lacks the intensity of the previous two films.

    SP's PTS is decent, apart from the CGI, and the train fight is great. The rest of the action is a joke, especially the car chase, plane sequence, and basically the entire third act.

    I'm hoping that the action in Bond 25 harkens back to the CR/QOS style.
  • pking_3pking_3 Punting under the Bridge of Sighs
    Posts: 33
    pking_3 wrote: »

    I'm not sure why anyone would consider either a gimmick. An actor who trains to do a stunt is no less admirable than a stuntman who does it. It is truly baffling to see how or why anyone would see it as a negative either way, especially if it's done well.

    I would consider anything a gimmick that seems to be particularly contrived to manufacture a sort of success or popularity. I know "gimmick" has a negative connotation of vapidity or inorganicness, but I don't think I am a stickler for holding to that, as I rather enjoy many of Bond's longstanding gimmicks, from cameos to manufactured tension over semi-concealed casting or singing reveals, to the novelty stunts (not done by lead actors) that promise the never-before-seen onscreen, from corkscrewing AMCs to iceberg ski-base jumping to this. Heck, even adherence to the treasured formula is continual flirtation with a light form of gimmickry; its why we get particular kick out of expected dialogue lines, references/homages to a particularly rich past, obligatory repetition of tropes and so on.

    If Bond doesn't successfully adhere to the almost-gimmickry we each demand, it ain't quite Bond.

    At any rate, Cruise doing more than his fair share of stuntwork, particularly for his MI franchise, and entire marketing campaigns being built around this admit to something that fringes on gimmickry...or if that sounds too harsh for you to abide then its something they do as an intentional, contrived add-on for the sake of better selling their product. It's not bad, per se.

    So, in conclusion: I don't think photographing an enjoyed gimmick makes it not a gimmick. If anything, I think its a valid form of gimmick celebration, and Bond fans should be as adept as anyone in the history of movie fandom at appreciating this. Gimmickry is a beloved and significant part of the bedrock upon which Bond is built. Just, different gimmicks.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @Fire_and_Ice_Returns, I too enjoyed them tweaking a few things with the 4K release, like removing obvious crew members in the background and whatnot. Glad they tweaked Arnie's face too in that jump scene, it was always jarring seeing that oddly masked stuntman.
  • Posts: 4,409
    There have been moments in Craig's films that have been terrific.

    I remember when I first saw the Crane fight I was utterly shocked and had complete vertigo. There are some terrific shots throughout that sequence and the editing/rhythm is terrific. Also, I love the moment where it looks as though Bond has misjudged the jump to the second crane and lands awkwardly. Martin Campbell was a terrific action director, who had a firm grasp on the more spectacle-laden aspects of action fimmaking and the personal more human angle. The look of determination and pain on Craig's face is perfect.

    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1453.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1533.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1554.jpg?strip=all

    SF has some pretty impressive shots visually but the actual set-piece/stunt action in the film is very muted when compared to previous Bond films. However, there are some terrific smaller more elegantly composed actions beats. Mendes was much more concerned with shooting arty actions sequences. Personally, I think SF is beautiful. There may not really be one single standout stunt but the movie is so artfully and beautifully composed.

    If anything, Mendes attempted to evolve and redevelop the parameters of traditional action filmmaking. Opposed to construct overly bombastic and busy frames, he created something in the third act of SF that was intimate, minimalist, dramatic and artful.

    Skyfall_Screenshot_3463.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3573.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3632.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3802.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3821.jpg

    SF was rather bold in this respect. It started in the way any Bond film would with a action sequence in a busy Istanbul. But in the end the story moves and isolates its three leads to one house in the middle of nowhere. It's a rather brave move for a Bond film; where typically the third act has to be the most bombastic with the stakes at an insurmountable level.

    That isn't to say that Mendes didn't attempt to do 'louder' more showy action beats. However, these moments were never really his strongest suit. Not in the same way that Christopher McQuarrie takes to them.

    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-498.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1148.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1357.jpg?strip=all
    Spectre_Screenshot_0313.jpgSpectre_Screenshot_0318.jpg
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    There have been moments in Craig's films that have been terrific.

    I remember when I first saw the Crane fight I was utterly shocked and had complete vertigo. There are some terrific shots throughout that sequence and the editing/rhythm is terrific. Also, I love the moment where it looks as though Bond has misjudged the jump to the second crane and lands awkwardly. Martin Campbell was a terrific action director, who had a firm grasp on the more spectacle-laden aspects of action fimmaking and the personal more human angle. The look of determination and pain on Craig's face is perfect.

    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1453.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1533.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1554.jpg?strip=all

    SF has some pretty impressive shots visually but the actual set-piece/stunt action in the film is very muted when compared to previous Bond films. However, there are some terrific smaller more elegantly composed actions beats. Mendes was much more concerned with shooting arty actions sequences. Personally, I think SF is beautiful. There may not really be one single standout stunt but the movie is so artfully and beautifully composed.

    If anything, Mendes attempted to evolve and redevelop the parameters of traditional action filmmaking. Opposed to construct overly bombastic and busy frames, he created something in the third act of SF that was intimate, minimalist, dramatic and artful.

    Skyfall_Screenshot_3463.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3573.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3632.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3802.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3821.jpg

    SF was rather bold in this respect. It started in the way any Bond film would with a action sequence in a busy Istanbul. But in the end the story moves and isolates its three leads to one house in the middle of nowhere. It's a rather brave move for a Bond film; where typically the third act has to be the most bombastic with the stakes at an insurmountable level.

    That isn't to say that Mendes didn't attempt to do 'louder' more showy action beats. However, these moments were never really his strongest suit. Not in the same way that Christopher McQuarrie takes to them.

    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-498.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1148.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1357.jpg?strip=all
    Spectre_Screenshot_0313.jpgSpectre_Screenshot_0318.jpg

    Well said.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Actually I wouldn't mind a bit less action in Bond movies. Shorter scenes, lower key. My favourite action scenes in each movie are often the smaller ones.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    I might not like SF, but goodness is it one beautiful looking film.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I might not like SF, but goodness is it one beautiful looking film.

    I feel honoured we had Deakins on board. His work is absolutely astonishing.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    RC7 wrote: »
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I might not like SF, but goodness is it one beautiful looking film.

    I feel honoured we had Deakins on board. His work is absolutely astonishing.

    Absolutely, he elevates every film he works on. You could pause at any point during SF and you'd have a beautiful desktop background or poster out of the image you freeze on.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited August 2018 Posts: 8,217
    pking_3 wrote: »

    I would consider anything a gimmick that seems to be particularly contrived to manufacture a sort of success or popularity. I know "gimmick" has a negative connotation of vapidity or inorganicness, but I don't think I am a stickler for holding to that, as I rather enjoy many of Bond's longstanding gimmicks, from cameos to manufactured tension over semi-concealed casting or singing reveals, to the novelty stunts (not done by lead actors) that promise the never-before-seen onscreen, from corkscrewing AMCs to iceberg ski-base jumping to this. Heck, even adherence to the treasured formula is continual flirtation with a light form of gimmickry; its why we get particular kick out of expected dialogue lines, references/homages to a particularly rich past, obligatory repetition of tropes and so on.

    If Bond doesn't successfully adhere to the almost-gimmickry we each demand, it ain't quite Bond.

    At any rate, Cruise doing more than his fair share of stuntwork, particularly for his MI franchise, and entire marketing campaigns being built around this admit to something that fringes on gimmickry...or if that sounds too harsh for you to abide then its something they do as an intentional, contrived add-on for the sake of better selling their product. It's not bad, per se.

    So, in conclusion: I don't think photographing an enjoyed gimmick makes it not a gimmick. If anything, I think its a valid form of gimmick celebration, and Bond fans should be as adept as anyone in the history of movie fandom at appreciating this. Gimmickry is a beloved and significant part of the bedrock upon which Bond is built. Just, different gimmicks.

    Thanks for clearing that up, @pking_3

    I wrongly assumed you were using 'gimmick' in a negative fashion. You make a fair point.

    Remington wrote: »
    There have been moments in Craig's films that have been terrific.

    I remember when I first saw the Crane fight I was utterly shocked and had complete vertigo. There are some terrific shots throughout that sequence and the editing/rhythm is terrific. Also, I love the moment where it looks as though Bond has misjudged the jump to the second crane and lands awkwardly. Martin Campbell was a terrific action director, who had a firm grasp on the more spectacle-laden aspects of action fimmaking and the personal more human angle. The look of determination and pain on Craig's face is perfect.

    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1453.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1533.jpg?strip=all
    casino-royale-movie-screencaps.com-1554.jpg?strip=all

    SF has some pretty impressive shots visually but the actual set-piece/stunt action in the film is very muted when compared to previous Bond films. However, there are some terrific smaller more elegantly composed actions beats. Mendes was much more concerned with shooting arty actions sequences. Personally, I think SF is beautiful. There may not really be one single standout stunt but the movie is so artfully and beautifully composed.

    If anything, Mendes attempted to evolve and redevelop the parameters of traditional action filmmaking. Opposed to construct overly bombastic and busy frames, he created something in the third act of SF that was intimate, minimalist, dramatic and artful.

    Skyfall_Screenshot_3463.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3573.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3632.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3802.jpg
    Skyfall_Screenshot_3821.jpg

    SF was rather bold in this respect. It started in the way any Bond film would with a action sequence in a busy Istanbul. But in the end the story moves and isolates its three leads to one house in the middle of nowhere. It's a rather brave move for a Bond film; where typically the third act has to be the most bombastic with the stakes at an insurmountable level.

    That isn't to say that Mendes didn't attempt to do 'louder' more showy action beats. However, these moments were never really his strongest suit. Not in the same way that Christopher McQuarrie takes to them.

    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-498.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1148.jpg?strip=all
    skyfall-movie-screencaps.com-1357.jpg?strip=all
    Spectre_Screenshot_0313.jpgSpectre_Screenshot_0318.jpg

    Well said.

    Agreed. I have no issue with the artful approach to the action scenes in SF. It felt fresh at the time for the series. It's only in SP where I found the balance was off, and the louder, more 'showy' action scenes failed to hit their mark for the most part.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,637
    I feel that if the action is lacking, it's because that the directors that are hired aren't action directors. This is why people think Martin Campbell is one of the best directors. EON needs to start hiring action directors, not drama, artsy directors. It would make a world of difference.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I feel that if the action is lacking, it's because that the directors that are hired aren't action directors. This is why people think Martin Campbell is one of the best directors. EON needs to start hiring action directors, not drama, artsy directors. It would make a world of difference.

    This.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Murdock wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    I feel that if the action is lacking, it's because that the directors that are hired aren't action directors. This is why people think Martin Campbell is one of the best directors. EON needs to start hiring action directors, not drama, artsy directors. It would make a world of difference.

    This.

    I concur. Just look at The Foreigner.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    The finale of SF is really impressive for me. I find it to be the best finale in a Bond film since GE. They are both of course very different, but also similar in one way (see below).

    I agree that Deakins did wonderful cinematographic work with SF. The entire Shanghai section of the film is just gorgeous. It also helped that he used digital cameras which really brought out the luminosity of all those night scenes. Something similar was done in Collateral by Micheal Mann and Dion Beebe, & the results were equally impressive.

    I think the focus on visual aesthetics and almost smoldering atmosphere in lieu of visceral action really elevated the middle section of the film, but then again so did the introduction of sultry Berenice Marlohe, who complimented the scenery and stole every scene she was in.

    The finale in contrast, while not particularly action heavy for a Bond film, worked for me due to the central personal conflict between M & Silva. That was nicely built up during the entire film and came to a heady climax & conclusion at Skyfall Ranch. In a way, this was similar to GE, where the personal conflict was instead between Bond and Trevalyn. Perhaps that's why both of these finales resonated with me, even if GE was more traditionally action oriented.

    So I can appreciate and enjoy a Bond film which isn't so action heavy, if it's compensated by suspense, tension, atmosphere and visuals. To a degree, FRWL is similar in this respect.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,217
    I agree, @bondjames

    But that also services the opinion that SF was a flash in the pan - the right film at the right time - and bringing back Mendes was not the right choice despite SP being strong in technical aspects also. A director like Campbell might not have saved SP from the depths script-wise, but he certainly would have improved a lot of other aspects - Oscar-winning director or not. He most certainly would not have made a big deal out of a big but ultimately useless explosion.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    You have a point @CraigMooreOHMSS. I agree. I believe SP could indeed have benefited from a more traditionally oriented action director, who perhaps could have been able to more readily paper over the script flaws.

    That plane chase is very poor imho (especially with the money on screen), and someone with better action chops could have made something more out of it. Regarding the car chase, apparently there were restrictions in Rome, so I'm not sure if that could have been saved entirely, but perhaps some of the budget wasted there could have been trimmed.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I agree, @bondjames

    But that also services the opinion that SF was a flash in the pan - the right film at the right time - and bringing back Mendes was not the right choice despite SP being strong in technical aspects also. A director like Campbell might not have saved SP from the depths script-wise, but he certainly would have improved a lot of other aspects - Oscar-winning director or not. He most certainly would not have made a big deal out of a big but ultimately useless explosion.

    Very rarely is a poor script made into a good film. To make a good film (in whatever genre), it always starts with the script.

    SP needed a complete re-write. A strong vision. A strong voice-- like SF.

    Campbell-- or the Russo Brothers-- could not have made SP any better with the script that was handed in. There may have been a great action sequence or three-- but three action sequences does not a complete film make...
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Modern Bond action is lacking but only in relation to the highest standards it achieved, which in my opinion were during the eighties.

    The best action scenes in the last two films were the climax of Skyfall (tense, visceral and highly atmospheric) and the PTS of Spectre (graceful, exciting and imaginative). Superb stuff. The rest of the scenes have been generally enjoyable (except for that Sf silhouette fight which I find a bit pointless), though they're missing that extra something to make them great. For instance, the Sf PTS had moments of exhilaration, but I find its pace to be a bit too monotone. With the Sp plane chase, an attempt was made to give it an iconic, larger-than-life quality (I mean, a plane sliding down a mountain-- yeah!), though its conception was a bit clumsy. The car chase in Rome also feels like it's striving for greatness but it can't go beyond being good fun. They shouldn't have had Bond calling Moneypenny in the middle of it, and I think having more people chasing after Bond would've made it a bit more exhilarating. Still, I greatly enjoy the injection of humor and the scene is most definitely not without charm.

    It's not necessary to see Craig's face performing an incredible stunt, like in Mission: Impossible-- all it takes to make an action scene great is a little bit of invention in terms of how the scene is conceived and a little extra something to give it visual impact (like setting the scene in the Eiffel Tower!). Furthermore, it's worth considering the impact of action doesn't come solely from the action itself, but to a significant degree also from the story and the characters partaking in said action.

    The action scenes have been good but I feel the filmmakers should raise their game slightly. Don't just be competent-- go nuts, CR parkour chase-style!

    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I miss seeing Bond check into a hotel, relax, inspect the room for bugs, set up traps for the inevitable bad guy who is bound to break in, etc. I want more of this, I feel like it's been missing from the entire Craig era.
    Absolutely. This is essential stuff, in my opinion. I crave it badly. It's the little moments when a film "takes a breath" that add a great deal of charm to it.
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