No Time to Die production thread

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,179
    I recently got the Some Kind of Hero book as a birthday gift and the section dedicated to SP was the first I read of it. I really wanted to delve on the development of the script, which elements were brought on board by which writers. Have to admit I did a double take pigeon once I read that bit because I always assumed it was either P&W’s or Mendes’ idea.

    Jordo007 wrote: »
    And another thing is that it’s not always the writers that come up with the ideas but certainly do from directors and producers. P&W didn’t come up with the invisible car, that was all Tamahori. They didn’t come up with Blofeld being a foster brother, that was Michael G. Wilson.

    I didn't know that. I wonder why MGW would suggest that. MGW seems to me a man I always thought really understand the character of Bond. Why would come up with such a poor story angle to tether Bond and Daniel's run in such an uninventive way.
    It Bond more weak and Blofeld less maniacal

    Most of Bond's enduring appeal is how little we know about him, and how we rarely chip away at who he is or what makes him tick, so when something minor is revealed about him it feels satisfying and rewarding for long term fans who have been loyal to the character

    It doesn’t surprise me too much when I think of it because the novice Bond concept was something he came up with in the mid 80s as a story pitch after Moore retired, and Cubby shot it down at the time. Then by 2005 when time came to finally adapt the first novel MGW revisited the idea and thought it would be perfect to add into the story and that’s the film we got.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,338
    Walecs wrote: »
    Nobody has EVER claimed P&W are the best Bond writers. If EON actually believed that then they never would have brought in other writers to take over like Paul Haggis, John Logan, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

    Yeah, I know, it's just that your post seemed to make a point about P&B being competent and decent writers and then you ended that by saying that they didn't make QoS, which in my opinion is one of the best written Bonds.

    Really? I find it hugely under-written: the themes aren't really carried through, the gags are weak, the plot is barely there... the writer's strike really shows in that one.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Yeah, not crazy about QOS either. Needed MUCH MUCG more work.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    edited February 2020 Posts: 4,043
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Nobody has EVER claimed P&W are the best Bond writers. If EON actually believed that then they never would have brought in other writers to take over like Paul Haggis, John Logan, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

    Yeah, I know, it's just that your post seemed to make a point about P&B being competent and decent writers and then you ended that by saying that they didn't make QoS, which in my opinion is one of the best written Bonds.

    Really? I find it hugely under-written: the themes aren't really carried through, the gags are weak, the plot is barely there... the writer's strike really shows in that one.

    If it shows there, what happened on SPECTRE? There was no strike there and QOS is nowhere as bad as the nonsense in SP.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.
  • GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,179
    Love MGW for his contributions, but I think it’s time for him to step back and retire from Bond. He turned 78 on January, he’s not gonna keep doing this forever. Maybe he can still do cameos with his son until he passes like Stan Lee did.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Shardlake wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Nobody has EVER claimed P&W are the best Bond writers. If EON actually believed that then they never would have brought in other writers to take over like Paul Haggis, John Logan, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

    Yeah, I know, it's just that your post seemed to make a point about P&B being competent and decent writers and then you ended that by saying that they didn't make QoS, which in my opinion is one of the best written Bonds.

    Really? I find it hugely under-written: the themes aren't really carried through, the gags are weak, the plot is barely there... the writer's strike really shows in that one.

    If it shows there, what happened on SPECTRE? There was no strike there and QOS is nowhere as bad as the nonsense in SP.

    Personally speaking, I prefer SP. It’s not perfect, but at least it’s watchable. QOS is just a series of aggressively bad crash cuts/edits. Just a bunch noise.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Good points @Shardlake

    I do wonder what Wade didn't like about Waller Bridge's rewrites? Maybe some of the humour wasn't to his taste? Pure speculation on my part
    @peter would probably have an idea of what rewrites and that must be like
    Perhaps Wade is just protective over his work?

    @Jordo007 ... I’m very surprised Wade opened his mouth on this. Number one, unless you’re Tarantino (or a similar auteur/writer of that stature), you will have your work re-written. This happens every day on every project in Hollywood (the indie world is a little different, but even then, it happens).
    Two, knowing this happens I’m very surprised why he couldn’t (as a member of this team/production), keep quiet about his feelings on a particular writer re-writing his work.
    As I told @shardlake, I think this would indicate that he is done with Bond since it’s well known BB likes to keep internal matters behind closed doors. She won’t like one of her team revealing his displeasure in the process (he gets paid very well to be a good soldier).
    Yeah, I was surprised when I read about this.

    P
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.

    Yeah, but I guess what has kept BB & MGW this long might be...firstly, they're related & they don't disagree, maybe coz they respect & trust their opinions...compared to Cubby & Harry's Era.
  • edited February 2020 Posts: 2,436
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.

    Yeah, but I guess what has kept BB & MGW this long might be...firstly, they're related & they don't disagree, maybe coz they respect & trust their opinions...compared to Cubby & Harry's Era.

    They disagreed on casting in 2006, MGW wanted Cavill and BB wanted Craig. Peter Lamont told me that btw.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.

    Yeah, but I guess what has kept BB & MGW this long might be...firstly, they're related & they don't disagree, maybe coz they respect & trust their opinions...compared to Cubby & Harry's Era.

    They disagreed on casting in 2006, MGW wanted Cavill and BB wanted Craig.

    I thought it was Martin Campbell who wanted Cavill.
  • GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.

    Yeah, but I guess what has kept BB & MGW this long might be...firstly, they're related & they don't disagree, maybe coz they respect & trust their opinions...compared to Cubby & Harry's Era.

    They disagreed on casting in 2006, MGW wanted Cavill and BB wanted Craig.

    I thought it was Martin Campbell who wanted Cavill.

    And MGW. I got the impression BB won people round.
  • DeerAtTheGatesDeerAtTheGates Belgium
    Posts: 524
    peter wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Good points @Shardlake

    I do wonder what Wade didn't like about Waller Bridge's rewrites? Maybe some of the humour wasn't to his taste? Pure speculation on my part
    @peter would probably have an idea of what rewrites and that must be like
    Perhaps Wade is just protective over his work?

    @Jordo007 ... I’m very surprised Wade opened his mouth on this. Number one, unless you’re Tarantino (or a similar auteur/writer of that stature), you will have your work re-written. This happens every day on every project in Hollywood (the indie world is a little different, but even then, it happens).
    Two, knowing this happens I’m very surprised why he couldn’t (as a member of this team/production), keep quiet about his feelings on a particular writer re-writing his work.
    As I told @shardlake, I think this would indicate that he is done with Bond since it’s well known BB likes to keep internal matters behind closed doors. She won’t like one of her team revealing his displeasure in the process (he gets paid very well to be a good soldier).
    Yeah, I was surprised when I read about this.

    P

    Though it's worth noting that this isn't the first time. I can't remember if it was Purvis or Wade who said it, but they were interviewed during the Spectre premiere about the writing process (this was for the official live stream) The question was 'Which things did you write?' or 'What parts of the story did you came up with?'. One of them answered that 'We wrote all the good bits'. Asked what Logan wrote, the answer was 'the rest'.

    The reason I remember this is that the tone in which he said it was not jovial or trying to be funny. No, it was calm, muted, serious and sounding quite bitter. And that during the premiere while everyone else was enthusiastic and all smiles!

    I totally get from interviews that BB (and MGW too, I assume) likes to keep internal conflict, well, internal. But sometimes people say what they think or what they feel, even when their bosses wouldn't like it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    My understanding is that the screen tests for Craig ultimately won MGW and Campbell over. Broccoli was already convinced about Craig with his performance in LAYER CAKE alone.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I wonder if age had a part to play in MGW making such a decision. Coz I was very surprised when he was asked about the title of Bond 25(as it was called back then)during the Jamaica launch....and he said he can't remember when they revealed the title of a Bond film during it's press launch....I found that to be quite Cringeworthy.

    It would still needed to have been approved by BB too.

    Yeah, but I guess what has kept BB & MGW this long might be...firstly, they're related & they don't disagree, maybe coz they respect & trust their opinions...compared to Cubby & Harry's Era.

    They disagreed on casting in 2006, MGW wanted Cavill and BB wanted Craig.

    I thought it was Martin Campbell who wanted Cavill.

    And MGW. I got the impression BB won people round.

    Yeah, no doubt she was bent on Craig....it's obvious she's Craig's biggest fan....at least they came to an understanding....can't say that often in Cubby & Harry's Era.
  • My understanding is that the screen tests for Craig ultimately won MGW and Campbell over. Broccoli was already convinced about Craig with his performance in LAYER CAKE alone.

    Yes, I think that sounds about right.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    peter wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Good points @Shardlake

    I do wonder what Wade didn't like about Waller Bridge's rewrites? Maybe some of the humour wasn't to his taste? Pure speculation on my part
    @peter would probably have an idea of what rewrites and that must be like
    Perhaps Wade is just protective over his work?

    @Jordo007 ... I’m very surprised Wade opened his mouth on this. Number one, unless you’re Tarantino (or a similar auteur/writer of that stature), you will have your work re-written. This happens every day on every project in Hollywood (the indie world is a little different, but even then, it happens).
    Two, knowing this happens I’m very surprised why he couldn’t (as a member of this team/production), keep quiet about his feelings on a particular writer re-writing his work.
    As I told @shardlake, I think this would indicate that he is done with Bond since it’s well known BB likes to keep internal matters behind closed doors. She won’t like one of her team revealing his displeasure in the process (he gets paid very well to be a good soldier).
    Yeah, I was surprised when I read about this.

    P

    Though it's worth noting that this isn't the first time. I can't remember if it was Purvis or Wade who said it, but they were interviewed during the Spectre premiere about the writing process (this was for the official live stream) The question was 'Which things did you write?' or 'What parts of the story did you came up with?'. One of them answered that 'We wrote all the good bits'. Asked what Logan wrote, the answer was 'the rest'.

    The reason I remember this is that the tone in which he said it was not jovial or trying to be funny. No, it was calm, muted, serious and sounding quite bitter. And that during the premiere while everyone else was enthusiastic and all smiles!

    I totally get from interviews that BB (and MGW too, I assume) likes to keep internal conflict, well, internal. But sometimes people say what they think or what they feel, even when their bosses wouldn't like it.

    I recall them complaining about the ending, that they wanted to have Bond walk to the MI6 crew at the end on the bridge but it was Mendes that disagreed and had him walk to Madeleine.

    IMO Mendes made the right choice.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @MakeshiftPython , I need to get my hands on this latest edition of SKOH. From my recollection (and someone please let me know if I’m mistaken), the Sony leaks made no mention of MGW (or Craig, for that matter); on EoN’s side there was a lot of mention of Mendes, Logan and Brothergate. BB was also mentioned on conference calls... and from what I remember, Brothergate was soon born after African warlord-Blofeld, in subsequent early drafts. The leaks (if I’m remembering), made it sound like a Mendes idea that was carried through into the hiring of PnW.
    There were a few junior Sony executives who had issues with BG but they were ignored; concern at the time was the atrocious third act, the notes that PnW got the most notes on...
    If this is what SKOH is now stating, I wonder if this is a directive from EoN to change the narrative; to protect a good soldier for them, Mendes?
    I only say this since I don’t remember MGW involved in any discussion during the leaks— although BG was a topic of conversation (and it seemed to come from the mind of Mendes (not Logan, not PnW, and certainly not MGW; interesting that this may be the first anyone has heard of this angle)).
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited February 2020 Posts: 2,641
    Thanks for giving us your take @peter mate.
    I wouldn't have a clue how these things play out

    @MakeshiftPython ahh cool. My girlfriend bought it for my birthday (mainly so I could stop doing her head in about Bond) I've only read the Casino chapter briefly. It looks like a great read
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Some of the ideas are just utter rubbish, Bond getting an explosive watch when he's on indefinite suspension? Why would the head of an organisation turn up for a lackeys funeral?

    Also watching M and Bond antagonistic is cringe worthy, Bond and C is the same and Craig saying dialogue that would more common in a Roger Moore film.

    SF's plot holes aside there is anything as dumb as in here for my money.

    M's dialogue with C is just woeful, this is just awful, I'm sticking to this at 24 and I'm only at just after the White meet up and that was a huge let down, so much potential, making White have conscience, don't make me laugh.

    +1.
    Some of the ideas are just utter rubbish, Bond getting an explosive watch when he's on indefinite suspension? Why would the head of an organisation turn up for a lackeys funeral?

    I, to this day, can't understand this. Just like I don't understand why hundreds of people would show up at SPECTRE's reunion when secrecy is what matters the most in these cases. The Quantum organization was handled much better; their meetings happened with people not even looking at each other and the subordinates didn't even know who they worked with, they just answered to their boss, who answered to someone else in their turn. Reaching the head of Quantum was almost impossible since Bond had to go through all the layers of the organization, whereas with SPECTRE Bond only had to kill one of its members and he immediately reached his boss.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    peter wrote: »
    @MakeshiftPython , I need to get my hands on this latest edition of SKOH. From my recollection (and someone please let me know if I’m mistaken), the Sony leaks made no mention of MGW (or Craig, for that matter); on EoN’s side there was a lot of mention of Mendes, Logan and Brothergate. BB was also mentioned on conference calls... and from what I remember, Brothergate was soon born after African warlord-Blofeld, in subsequent early drafts. The leaks (if I’m remembering), made it sound like a Mendes idea that was carried through into the hiring of PnW.
    There were a few junior Sony executives who had issues with BG but they were ignored; concern at the time was the atrocious third act, the notes that PnW got the most notes on...
    If this is what SKOH is now stating, I wonder if this is a directive from EoN to change the narrative; to protect a good soldier for them, Mendes?
    I only say this since I don’t remember MGW involved in any discussion during the leaks— although BG was a topic of conversation (and it seemed to come from the mind of Mendes (not Logan, not PnW, and certainly not MGW; interesting that this may be the first anyone has heard of this angle)).

    When I get a chance I’ll write down an excerpt from the book. The African warlord stuff was brought up and so was the idea of casting Tilda Swinton as a female Blofeld.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    *ALERT* Wade did not dig out PWB at the talk he gave. The Tweeter was being disingenuous and provocative.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited February 2020 Posts: 4,247
    My understanding is that the screen tests for Craig ultimately won MGW and Campbell over. Broccoli was already convinced about Craig with his performance in LAYER CAKE alone.

    Of course, the usual Bedroom scene from FRWL, for the screentest. Campbell wanted Cavill, maybe coz he felt it was Bond in his juvenile days. So Cavill was a good fit. Even if Cavill was just 22 at the time. It was much later Campbell started warming up to Craig....coz initially he felt Craig wasn't handsome enough. But of course anyone would feel the same....when the last guy was a Pretty Boy. But BB was looking for rugged & Handsome this time....not just pretty.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Shardlake wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Nobody has EVER claimed P&W are the best Bond writers. If EON actually believed that then they never would have brought in other writers to take over like Paul Haggis, John Logan, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

    Yeah, I know, it's just that your post seemed to make a point about P&B being competent and decent writers and then you ended that by saying that they didn't make QoS, which in my opinion is one of the best written Bonds.

    Really? I find it hugely under-written: the themes aren't really carried through, the gags are weak, the plot is barely there... the writer's strike really shows in that one.

    If it shows there, what happened on SPECTRE? There was no strike there and QOS is nowhere as bad as the nonsense in SP.

    Personally speaking, I prefer SP. It’s not perfect, but at least it’s watchable. QOS is just a series of aggressively bad crash cuts/edits. Just a bunch noise.

    I've just watched it again for the first time in 3 years and I couldn't agree.

    It just feels like a film that no one had any conviction or passion involved in it.

    At least QOS had the writers strike as an excuse what was SPECTRE's?

    Mendes wanted out of this and it shows.

    There may have been something good in SPECTRE but it is drowned out so much by the bad that you hardly notice it.

    Easily Craig's worst performance as well, he is fantastic in QOS. Pity about Newman as some of the new cues are fine it is just Mendes and Smith recycling the SF score when it is not necessary.

    Foster brothergate, that ring scanning nonsense, also Q giving Bond a gadget when he is suspended and Blofeld turning up to a lackeys funeral, nothing in QOS is this ludicrous.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited February 2020 Posts: 8,179
    Cannot agree with Craig giving his “worst” performance in SP. I wouldn’t even be sure what would qualify his worst because I think they’re all equally great, but I loved seeing Craig play a much more confident Bond that’s not going through some personal crisis after three films.
  • Posts: 1,490
    Cannot agree with Craig giving his “worst” performance in SP. I wouldn’t even be sure what would qualify his worst because I think they’re all equally great, but I loved seeing Craig play a much more confident Bond that’s not going through some personal crisis after three films.

    I agree with you. I don't think Craig has missed a step playing Bond. In SP, he shows a more relaxed side to his Bond, which is what many fans, even on this forum, seemed to want. From the look of NTTD, seems Bond is in for a really rough emotional ride again, and Craig will deliver another fine performance, I have no doubt about that.

  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    Craig's performance is the highlight of SPECTRE to me. He plays it so casually and cool. I do remember lots of critics saying he seemed bored in his performance but I never felt that way. I think his "slash my wrists" comment really influenced how critics viewed the film - someone who was fed up with the role and phoned it in. I don't believe he was though.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    Posts: 3,157
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Walecs wrote: »
    Nobody has EVER claimed P&W are the best Bond writers. If EON actually believed that then they never would have brought in other writers to take over like Paul Haggis, John Logan, and Phoebe Waller-Bridge.

    Yeah, I know, it's just that your post seemed to make a point about P&B being competent and decent writers and then you ended that by saying that they didn't make QoS, which in my opinion is one of the best written Bonds.

    Really? I find it hugely under-written: the themes aren't really carried through, the gags are weak, the plot is barely there... the writer's strike really shows in that one.

    If it shows there, what happened on SPECTRE? There was no strike there and QOS is nowhere as bad as the nonsense in SP.

    Personally speaking, I prefer SP. It’s not perfect, but at least it’s watchable. QOS is just a series of aggressively bad crash cuts/edits. Just a bunch noise.

    I've just watched it again for the first time in 3 years and I couldn't agree.

    It just feels like a film that no one had any conviction or passion involved in it.

    At least QOS had the writers strike as an excuse what was SPECTRE's?

    Mendes wanted out of this and it shows.

    There may have been something good in SPECTRE but it is drowned out so much by the bad that you hardly notice it.

    Easily Craig's worst performance as well, he is fantastic in QOS. Pity about Newman as some of the new cues are fine it is just Mendes and Smith recycling the SF score when it is not necessary.

    Foster brothergate, that ring scanning nonsense, also Q giving Bond a gadget when he is suspended and Blofeld turning up to a lackeys funeral, nothing in QOS is this ludicrous.

    +1
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Maybe worst is too strong, least engaged and I say this as a huge Craig fan who liked him sometime before Bond.

    Our Friends In The North is on one of my favourite TV dramas of all time and he is a big part of that.

    I just don't like the way he plays it here and possibly the injury played into that. It just doesn't ring true as his previous 3, some of his lines and the attempt to make him funny it just doesn't work.

    What I have seen of him in NTTD he looks back on top form, re-energised and totally engaged. I can't wait.

    I'm sorry watching it again my view on it hasn't changed, because I invested in this era and I was emotionally connected it was the biggest let down for me of time being a Bond fan.

    I didn't like the Brosnan era and maybe DAD is much worse but I didn't really engage with it. I did SPECTRE and what I got deeply disappointed me.

    I think NTTD will show SPECTRE up for the film it is.

    Sorry I hate it and it remains 24 in my rankings.
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