The What if NTTD is the last EON produced Bond film? page 62

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  • Posts: 17,753
    thedove wrote: »
    So lets do a musical what if. What if John Barry had scored the entire film of DN? Do you think it would improve the film overall? What would be potentially lost? What say you Mi6? What if John Barry scored DN?

    I might be in a minority that have no issue with the DN score. I like that it's a bit different, and the fact that it's perhaps a bit dated sort of gives it the appropriate early-60's vibe. However, a John Barry score would probably have only benefited the film, I think. His FRWL score is brilliant, and I think a similar sound would have given DN something extra – and as a result, would have made the film more appealing to those who struggle with the existing score.
  • Posts: 1,917
    A John Barry score could probably uplift any film. Given that he hit the ground running with the FRWL score, I have no doubt he'd have given something more memorable than Monty Norman did. I'll leave whoever actually wrote the Bond theme out of it altogether so as not to make that a factor here. But that is what helped make James Bond James Bond. I don't think a better score overall would necessarily raise the film's overall status among either the general film fan or the Bond fan community.

    DN always has the baggage of still feeling closer to the 1950s and the score plays a large part in that perception. It's not distracting, just undistinctive. I think primarily to the climax of the tarantula scene Norman synchs the music to Bond's stamping of it with his shoe. The part preceding was nicely suspenseful.

    Underneath the Mango Tree must've been the number one song on the island at the time, everybody is singing or playing it. Jamaica Jump Up is also catchy. The funny thing is I still recall Norman's score better than I can anything Thomas Newman did over 2 films and even some of David Arnold's.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Yes for even Bond to sing a song Underneath the Mango Tree was a catchy ditty. Is this the only time Bond has sang?

    I find some of the score very dated. The score during the fight between Bond and Jones is weak. I actually like "Three Blind Mice" and "Jump Up". In fact I would like to see some more vocal songs in the future. But that might just be me.

    I don't dock DN for it's score but I think it could have been stronger.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I enjoy the DN score as it is, with its Carribbean atmosphere and 50s feel. Barry would have done even better, but he got a good run anyway.
  • Posts: 1,596
    A Barry score would likely have improved the film, but as it stands the score is fine. It fits the tone/atmosphere of the movie.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    It's my least favorite Bond score, so of course Barry stepping in and doing more work besides the main title would have been an immense improvement.
  • Posts: 4,044
    On a sunny day the DN album is a nice listen. The score is old fashioned but I've warmed to it of late. Just the end of the tarantula scene is a bit OTT.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Yes it captures the sun and frolic of the island life quite well. I do think a 100% scored film would make it feel more contemporary. I didn't really give it much thought till the crew on James Bond and Friends mentioned it.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited April 2020 Posts: 5,418
    As I have in isolation I pulled out the excellent James Bond Encyclopedia by John Cork and Collin Stutz. I read something that I had not heard before and it would make a perfect What if for us to discuss.

    Connery has hung up the PPK in 1966 and the search for a new Bond is launched. Quoting from the source above, "Producers Broccoli and Saltzman discussed casting Moore as Bond in TMWTGG. The film was to have begun production soon after YOLT was completed, with Cambodia as a key locale. When political violence erupted in the country, the producers shelved the idea of making the film. Moore's commitment to "The Saint" prevented him from assuming the role when they decided to make OHMSS a year later."

    BUT what if they were able to make this come true. What if Broccoli and Saltzman had cast Moore in TMWTGG after YOTL? Would his portrayal of 007 been accepted better then Lazenby considering he was a more established star? Or would anyone following up Connery be looked at in a lesser light? Would TMWTGG be a good starting vehicle for a new Bond? Would Moore portrayed Bond from 1968 to 1985?

    What say you Mi6?

    What if Roger Moore had starred in a 1968 version of TMWTGG?
  • Posts: 1,917
    I've heard that story about Moore, Cambodia and TMWTGG, and like the one about Gerry Anderson being asked to do work on a version of MR around the same time, I have to wonder how much validity there was to these claims.

    I first heard about those two stories in I think it was the book The Bond Files. Not to say those authors weren't credible, just why hadn't I heard this from earlier Bond film scholars like Steven Jay Rubin, Raymond Benson or as a feature in one of the fan club magazines? Has anybody quizzed Maibaum or MGW about these? We fans of the time would've eaten that up, or like The Killing Zone and Per Fine Ounce, was the history so well kept it didn't pop up until years later?

    I had always thought that after its many delays that OHMSS was a given for production after YOLT. Add to that, when was Moore actually available? I realize Saint episodes were being shown into '69, but that he was transitioning into films like Crossplot and already tied up.

    Furthermore, would Eon have really gone right back to an Asian locale right after YOLT had featured all Asian locations?

    As far as the question goes, Moore obviously would've been more accepted than Lazenby, but the Connery shadow would still linger.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Good point @BT3366 I hadn't heard of this story before. I know John Cork did the commentaries on the DVD's but I am unsure of his Bond cred. The authors say they had full co-operation of EON so I am assuming it would have been corrected if it was untrue.

    That all being said I think it's interesting to think about this. I am not sure if the producers would return to an Asian filming location after YOLT. I also wonder why the producers always saw TMWTGG taking place in Asia? The novel is in Jamaica.

    I think a star might have had a better go then an unknown in the role after Connery. I also think the content of TMWTGG would be a better first vehicle for a Bond. Having OHMSS be the first for a new Bond was audacious. This was a safer route.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I've heard that story about Moore, Cambodia and TMWTGG, and like the one about Gerry Anderson being asked to do work on a version of MR around the same time, I have to wonder how much validity there was to these claims.

    I first heard about those two stories in I think it was the book The Bond Files. Not to say those authors weren't credible, just why hadn't I heard this from earlier Bond film scholars like Steven Jay Rubin, Raymond Benson or as a feature in one of the fan club magazines? Has anybody quizzed Maibaum or MGW about these? We fans of the time would've eaten that up, or like The Killing Zone and Per Fine Ounce, was the history so well kept it didn't pop up until years later?

    I had always thought that after its many delays that OHMSS was a given for production after YOLT. Add to that, when was Moore actually available? I realize Saint episodes were being shown into '69, but that he was transitioning into films like Crossplot and already tied up.

    Furthermore, would Eon have really gone right back to an Asian locale right after YOLT had featured all Asian locations?

    As far as the question goes, Moore obviously would've been more accepted than Lazenby, but the Connery shadow would still linger.

    I'm very interested in this too...would they go to another Asian locale?

    Also, for years I've heard that Cubby and Harry didn't want to do OHMSS right after TB because it was "TB on skis." I've never understood that comparison.
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 2,917
    thedove wrote: »
    I know John Cork did the commentaries on the DVD's but I am unsure of his Bond cred. The authors say they had full co-operation of EON so I am assuming it would have been corrected if it was untrue.

    Cork's Bond cred is probably higher than anyone else's on earth. Cork produced all of the documentaries on the Bond DVDs/Blu-Rays, has written extensively about Fleming, and at one point was even writing scripts for EON. If he says something happened, it happened.

    The key point is that "Broccoli and Saltzman discussed casting Moore"--nothing got beyond discussion stage, and if it had, Moore would have been unavailable.

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    I think when you see how both have Bond being chased through the streets of the city. You have snow action and TB was water action so I guess they viewed the action has dependant on the environment. Also while it's greatly diluted from the novel there is a certain romance to Domino and Bond. So I guess that was another comparison.

    I don't know if the producers would head back to Asia for the very next adventure. I think it's interesting to think of Roger starring in TMWTGG in 1968. I think it would have been a much better vehicle for a debut. I always felt OHMSS would have been better with a returning Bond it would have added to the poignancy.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    Posts: 7,314
    BT3366 wrote: »
    As far as the question goes, Moore obviously would've been more accepted than Lazenby, but the Connery shadow would still linger.

    Yes, and you have to wonder just how successful Moore's run would've been had he started in '68. Both the general public's opinion of the Lazenby "fiasco" and having Connery return in a more comedic film really helped pave the way for Moore's acceptance.


    thedove wrote: »
    I think a star might have had a better go then an unknown in the role after Connery. I also think the content of TMWTGG would be a better first vehicle for a Bond. Having OHMSS be the first for a new Bond was audacious. This was a safer route.

    Agreed. Imagine if Dalton's first film was LTK. It would've been way too jarring coming after AVTAK!
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Great point about Dalton and LTK. I know a few on here don't like the "tropes" of a Bond film but I think for the first one there should be a few so that you can remind the audience it's the same character.

    Would Moore had been saddled with all the nods to previous Connery Bond adventures? If Moore Bond introduced like he was in LALD. Some tropes but no ordering martini's shaken not stirred, no tux and no hat thrown on the rack.
  • thedove wrote: »
    What if Roger Moore had starred in a 1968 version of TMWTGG?

    One of the most fascinating "what if?" of the franchise, in my opinion, alongside a third Dalton movie or a TLD starring Brosnan. Doubly fascinating since, beyond what the saga could have become from such installment, I wonder what this movie could have looked like in itself.

    In the same way that YOLT only used characters from Fleming's eponymous novel, I doubt that a hypothetical adaptation of TWTGG at that time would have been particularly faithful. Still, I suppose that the narrative itself would no doubt have remained the same (a duel between two assassins), without any mention of the Solex, since this subplot was created in the face of the energy crisis. Seeing Bond infiltrate his enemy's organization also seems likely to me, and could have been interesting.

    For the tone of the movie, between the previous installment and his future first appearance in 1973, I think it could also have been the opportunity to see a more serious Moore than in the film that we finally got in 1974. Something close to his performance in LALD in short, but with a context akin to the one of YOLT, from the cinematography to the humor. A missed opportunity, in my opinion. Sadly, as some have noted, it is unlikely that Moore would have been available at that time.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Thanks for contributing @Herr_Stockmann I agree that it is interesting to think of what if. Roger was available in 1968 but not in 1969. The writers of the book suggest that's why the producers didn't go with him in OHMSS. The window would have only worked if they had the film ready to go for a 1968 release.

    I'm curious why EON always seemed to think TMWTGG only worked in an Asian setting. First thinking of Cambodia and then setting the film in Hong Kong and Thailand.

    I think Moore directly after Connery might have had a better chance for success. We know that Moore was fine with doing the role and wouldn't have pulled a George. We know audiences on both sides of the pond knew him. But if they did TMWTGG in 1968, when would they do OHMSS?

    It is interesting to ponder!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    I am endlessly intrigued by this thread. Would a Cambodian-based TMWTGG finally involved Moore in the world of SPECTRE? Or would this have been a standalone?

    How many times was SPECTRE scheduled to return at the script stage, but ultimately canceled? I'm thinking of TSWLM of course but also OP. Any others?
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 910
    thedove wrote: »
    I'm curious why EON always seemed to think TMWTGG only worked in an Asian setting. First thinking of Cambodia and then setting the film in Hong Kong and Thailand.
    I suppose it was because Broccoli and Saltzman had already thought about Asia at first that when the possibility of adapting the novel reappeared, and that LALD had already been filmed in the Caribbean, that the prospect of returning to this region also reappeared.

    Which raises the question of how different the vision of a TMWTGG in 1968 would have been from the film we finally had, in terms of plot. I wonder how far the discussions had gone at the time and whether the plot had been the subject of some of them.

    I have read the novel again today and I continue to think that a more or less faithful adaptation could have worked in this context, whether by excluding the opening with a brainwashed Bond or by relocating the story in Asia. While reading, I was trying to imagine such an adaptation and strangely I was more able to see George Lazenby in such a film, especially if it was his first appearance as Bond. But I'm sure that a younger Roger Moore could have done the job.

    Regarding OHMSS, I have no doubt that the novel would have been more or less quickly adapted down the line as it seemed to enjoy a certain notoriety at the time. The fact that it was at one time considered as the fourth film of the series shows that it wasn't so much see as the culmination of a struggle between Bond and SPECTRE, as it may have seemed at the end, than as a more or less independent adventure. Thus, it could have been Moore or Lazenby's second installment if TMWTGG was at this point the first.
    echo wrote: »
    Would a Cambodian-based TMWTGG finally involved Moore in the world of SPECTRE? Or would this have been a standalone?
    I asked myself the question! Since SPECTRE was not present in all the YOLT scripts either and Goldfinger happened without mentioning the organization, whereas it was present in the two previous films, we can assume that an adaptation of TMWTGG would have been just independent from the world of SPECTRE.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Yes I think you could have had it like the 1974 version. However I think EON would have the clock running on OHMSS as it features Blofeld so predominately and I think by this time McClory was making ugly noises about having rights to SPECTRE and Blofeld.

    We know that TMWTGG would be less taxing as an acting vehicle and might provide the new Bond with enough good material to work with. Maybe they would have done OHMSS next. I know many on the boards clamour for Moore in OHMSS but I don't think his style would work with Hunt.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Having just completed the DAD watch-along with James Bond and Friends I was inspired to have a DAD what if. There were a few scenarios discussed that would be worthy of discussion but I learned that Salma Hayek was in the running for the role of Jinx. As we know the role went to Halle Berry and it was a wise choice based on her Oscar win! But what if the producers had cast Salma Hayek as Jinx. Would it have improved the character in the movie? How would Ms. Hayek look emerging from the sea? Brosnan and Hayek did go on to star together in After the Sunset and had chemistry so I think it would work nicely.

    But say you Mi6? What if Salma Hayek was cast as Jinx for DAD?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Brosnan and Berry had really good chemistry, but having seen After the Sunset, I think Brosnan and Hayek had even better chemistry. On that basis alone, the film would have been improved. Halle Berry is very feminine and sexy, but at times she also brought a certain "girlish" quality to the role of Jinx. Hayek can come across as more mature in an alluring way, which would have also been good for the film. I could also see certain line deliveries changing for the better with Hayek playing the role.

    I think Hayek would have been believable as an agent, but I'm not convinced she would've been better than Berry in that respect. I wonder if Hayek's Jinx would've remained NSA (certainly possible -- an American agent with Mexican blood) or they would've changed that because of her nationality.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,779
    An equally beautiful and capable actress, I think she would have been misused the same way.

    Jo' mama!
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Yeah, Hayek isn't a Bad Choice. So is Berry. She was Perfect. She just needed good direction. Imagine if Berry was directed by Martin Campbell. I still feel Campbell should have returned to close off the Brosnan Era. The film would have still looked Sci-fi, But as Campbell proved with GE...Realism & Fantasy are what Started Bond in the first place. Just that as a Bond Director, you don't allow the Fantasy Aspect tempt you much.
  • Posts: 698
    Salma Hayek would not have made a difference in DAD. I like Berry's physicality in the role, and she is a really believable secret agent, however the character is hollow through no fault of Berry's. I don't really like Berry's performance, however I think that comes from the director so I would assume Hayek would be the same. I can't remember if I got DAD confused with TWINE, but I remember hearing Hayek was considered for Christmas Jones which would have been a much better choice, and could have changed peoples opinions on TWINE much more than she could with DAD.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Interesting thoughts on this what if. I know many cite Berry's performance has a low point in the movie. I agree with you @2Wint2Kidd that it falls to the director to bring out a performance.

    I enjoy Salma has an actress and think she could have been an interesting choice. I enjoyed her and Pierce in After the Sunset and think their chemistry might have been a step above what we saw between Brosnan and Berry.

    I hadn't heard she was up for Christmas Jones. I don't see the fit there with that role. I think she was more suited to Jinx. I can see her walking up the beach and getting just as much as a reaction as Halle did.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    I couldn't see Hayek doing the seemingly endless expository Christmas Jones dialogue. Richards doesn't get enough credit for that.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    tumblr_mfh29sVmD51ri3gmqo1_500.jpg

    Yeah, wouldn't have been too bad...
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Octopussy wrote: »
    tumblr_mfh29sVmD51ri3gmqo1_500.jpg

    Yeah, wouldn't have been too bad...

    +1000 :)
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