The What if NTTD is the last EON produced Bond film? page 62

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  • Posts: 1,917
    Anybody who saw From Dusk Till Dawn would agree with that.

    I don't think any actress could do anything more with the horrid dialogue and direction that came out of DAD. I don't mind DAD as a whole as much as others seem to, but the Jinx character drags it down almost as low as CGI para-surfing as far as the low lows we can't get rid of in the experience. It also could've used more Mr. Blond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    The character is not fully formed. Never understood why she leaves Bond at the clinic to fend for himself. Then at the ice palace there seems to be an agonistic relationship. Then Bond orders her back to her room. I believe they said on the watch along that you could edit out Jinx and the plot wouldn't miss her. I agree.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Okay lets jump back in time to 1966. EON has decided to bring Blofeld to the big screen and have him meet Bond for the first time! I can only imagine how big a deal this was. After all Blofeld had been shown in the shadows in FRWL, and TB. He was shown to have hair and to have a rather deep voice. He had short scenes but left a mark. This needed to be cast perfectly.

    The producers tapped Jan Werich, his English was limited as he was Czech. So it can be assumed that he would have been dubbed by the wonderful Eric Pohlmann. To bring that deep sinister voice to the screen. But mere weeks into shooting Lewis Gilbert decided that Jan didn't look the part. The role was re-cast with Donald Pleasance brought in. Out went a Blofeld with hair, out went a deep voiced sinister man. Instead we got a scar face and a rather weak voice. Some lauded Donald's portrayal of Blofeld. Donald himself said he took the money did his 8 weeks and left!

    What if Lewis hadn't persuaded the producers to recast the role and Jan Werich had become the first Blofeld on screen? Can we picture him with Eric's voice? Would he have likely stayed on and come back for the next two films?

    What say you Mi6...what if Jan Werich had remained as Blofeld in YOLT?
  • edited April 2020 Posts: 440
    I think that Lewis Gilbert probably made the right choice in the end. From what I've seen of his filmography, Jan Werich was a very good actor, but not really an ideal choice for what Gilbert wanted.

    Blofeld has little screentime in YOLT, which means that he needed to make a big impact in a very short amount of time and while none of us has seen Jan Werich's performance, an elderly bearded Eastern European man hardly seems like the most original choice for a villain in a 1967 spy flick.

    Having him be a small, weak-looking man, with an odd facial scar and a soft voice was a very left-field choice but it worked because it totally went against what everyone expected that type of villain to look like and almost seemed to make him more sinister.
  • thedove wrote: »
    What if Jan Werich had remained as Blofeld in YOLT?
    I guess his performance would have been similar to that of Max Von Syndow in Never Say Never Again, less threatening and more cool-calculating, maybe with a sovereign nature; I took these wordings from a description of Syndow's interpretation, and it seems coherent to what Werich could have been. More than Werich himself, I am especially disappointed not to have had the opportunity to hear more of Eric Pohlmann's voice.

    At the end, I doubt that Werich would have been particularly memorable in this role and Lewis Gilbert made the right choice of recasting the part. I am however surprised that neither Broccoli, nor Saltzman, thought for a moment of choosing an actor who would have corresponded more to the Blofeld glimpsed in Thunderball. With hindsight, it is difficult to imagine anyone other than Pleasance since his portray is so iconic, but I would have liked to see something closer to the incarnation portrayed by Anthony Dawson and voiced by Pohlmann.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    I'm not sure Lewis was correct. Jan certainly isn't physically imposing but going with Donald shows they weren't looking for someone who was imposing. I'd argue that Donald even looks less like the leader of an organization then Jan. Adding the scar is proof that someone felt the same way.

    I wonder what everyone saw in Jan when he was first cast? I would have loved to have the voice of Eric Pohlmann as Blofeld, it would tie the previous films together stronger. I think with this voice anyone would look more menacing then Pleasance.

    But I may be biased because I am not a fan of how Blofeld is written and portrayed in this film.
  • Posts: 1,009
    I've seen a couple of films featuring Werich, one of them from Czech animation and FX wizard Karel Zeman.
    He was a good actor, especially in comical roles. But no Blofeld: I think he would have looked like Max Von Sydow - rest his soul - on NSNA. Harmless, affable, nice... The contrary of what Blofeld is meant to represent, and, morover, much less outrageous than Charles Gray.
  • thedove wrote: »
    I am not a fan of how Blofeld is written and portrayed in this film.
    Although I don't really appreciate Pleasance's interpretation either, there is no denying that it has made an impression, more than Werich ever could, I think. From there, Lewis' decision was right from a certain point of view, albeit I would have preferred it to be done in another way. But I share your interrogation about the initial choice of Werich: what did they see in him when he was first cast? Whether it is him or Pleasance, neither suits the literary description of the character or what was see of him in previous films.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I haven't seen Werich in anything, so I can't really comment on whether he would have worked.

    I do wish we could get to see footage of him as Blofeld during the brief shoot before he was recast. I suspect that footage is forever lost.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited April 2020 Posts: 5,418
    It's funny cause from what I understand the big reveal scene between Bond and Blofeld was one of the scenes that they filmed. You can see his hair in some of the chair angles. I would be curious to see the footage too but I think you are correct @MakeshiftPython it is lost.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I haven't seen Werich in anything, so I can't really comment on whether he would have worked.

    I do wish we could get to see footage of him as Blofeld during the brief shoot before he was recast. I suspect that footage is forever lost.
    From what I've read over the years, deleted footage from all of the '60s films was discarded back then. DAF is the oldest film to have deleted scenes as a special feature on home video.

    That means we'll never get to see what was filmed of Lazenby's Phinian chase in OHMSS, the tour of the Disco Volante in TB, the Kerim Bey "that, my friend is life" scene from FRWL, Honey staked out for the crabs, etc.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The idea of Blofeld as a baldy wouldn t have come around, regardless of Savalas being cast in the next or not. He would ve been the odd one out then (not counting Hollis)
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Clearly the producers weren't sold on the bald idea as they cast a hairy Blofeld in FRWL and TB then YOLT. Before replacing him with a bald actor and then another bald actor. Then back to hair! LOL!

    I guess they never thought to lock an actor up for the role for a multi-picture deal. I am sad we missed out on Pohlmann doing the voice. I can just imagine him describing what the piranha fish. Or even holding up the X-ray. (Kill Bond now.)

    A shame for that reason alone.
  • Posts: 1,917
    thedove wrote: »
    Clearly the producers weren't sold on the bald idea as they cast a hairy Blofeld in FRWL and TB then YOLT. Before replacing him with a bald actor and then another bald actor. Then back to hair! LOL!

    I guess they never thought to lock an actor up for the role for a multi-picture deal. I am sad we missed out on Pohlmann doing the voice. I can just imagine him describing what the piranha fish. Or even holding up the X-ray. (Kill Bond now.)

    A shame for that reason alone.

    A lot to consider here. We now live in a world where it seems all series are about continuity and continuing storylines, but back then it was about each individual project. Even television shows were usually stand-alone aside from occasional two-parters. Eon just focused on getting them out and aside from having Connery and the Mi6 staff, didn't worry whether Blofeld or Felix were the same or if the films really followed on except for a few references back to the other films. OHMSS was the first to really make a lot of references to previous missions.

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Yes true. I know continuity has taken a huge leap now and is the major focus of today's movies. I will always pine for the same villain to take on Bond for 3 films. It will be interesting as Waltz will get that very chance in NTTD. Although I gather its a small supporting role.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Okay lets jump ahead a few years to 1979. Bond was going to take to Outer Space! The villain needed to be as big as the plot and Michael Lonsdale was tapped to be Sir Hugo Drax. However for a while it was rumoured that the producers were looking at James Mason to play Drax. Mason was a very respected actor and was certainly more well known then Lonsdale to North American audiences. He had a quiet menace about him and had a rich history of playing smarmy suave villains. MR was a huge hit, would it had been better with Mason as Drax?

    What say you Mi6? What if the producers had cast James Mason as Hugo Drax in MR?
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,026
    I can very well imagine Mason doing as well as Lonsdale with the same script. It would fit his personality as much. Come to think about it, they're not really that different in their general character. The role doesn't require any physical action, just the ability to perfectly deliver some of the best lines ever written for a villain in the entire franchise. Yes, Mason could certainly have done it. But not better (though probably no worse) than Lonsdale, so it would not have been an improvement.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Intriguing idea. However, being an already established and, I don't know if beloved, but known actor, may have worked against him. It's Captain Nemo. The again, Christopher Lee was pretty well known for his villainous roles and didn't prevent his casting.

    One of Mason's strengths was his great voice. I think it was Burt Reynolds who did a good impression of him. I also don't know if Cubby would've wanted to pay Mason what he may have been wanting. This is part of why I think many villains are memorable in the series because they were unknowns to large audiences and didn't come with instant familiarity. This is why myself and some other fans weren't thrilled by the casting of Christoph Waltz as Blofeld/Oberhauser.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Great point. About the more recent villains as they are picked almost as stunt casting. I think Gert Frobe wasn't well known when he was cast as Goldfinger and yet I am sure there were other obvious Hollywood names for the role.

    I loved the line delivery of Mason and could see him elevating some of the dialogue of Drax. Not that I can find faults in the way Lonsdale handled the role. I loved the unibrow look of Lonsdale it upped his creepiness in the role.

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I don't know that casting Mason would've improved the character, as Lonsdale was terrific in the part. Something that I feel could've been different has to do simply with physicality and age. While Lonsdale was 47-48 years old when he played the part, Mason would've been 69-70. I've always thought in his later years, Mason's face took on a bit of a sad quality. He could've played the role the same way as Lonsdale, with a rather unexpressive disposition, and even then, his face and his older, more frail appearance could've given the character a slightly tragic, sympathetic quality that Lonsdale's Drax does not have. (For comparison's sake, this is not something I think would've necessarily come across with someone of a similar age to Mason, such as Curt Jurgens, who had a rather more severe face than Mason's). These things would've also affected the dynamic between Drax and Roger Moore's Bond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    I hadn't thought of that aspect of Mason playing Drax. It would come across as someone who knows Earth is doomed and he's trying to hit the reset button. I think Moore and Mason would make for an interesting dynamic. I can't see him barking with the same ferociousness of Lonsdale. "JAWS EXPELL THEM!!!" Always makes me jump a bit! LOL!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Incidentally, Mason and Moore worked together on the 1979 film North Sea Hijack (aka ffolkes). However, that doesn't really shed too much light on how they would've worked together in MR, since Roger plays someone so radically different from Bond in that film. But one can sense a chemistry between them, for sure. I would've loved to have seen James Mason in a Bond film, in any role. It would've been a privilege.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    thedove wrote: »
    I hadn't thought of that aspect of Mason playing Drax. It would come across as someone who knows Earth is doomed and he's trying to hit the reset button.
    I agree. I think the mere fact Mason was older would've emphasized that quality much more. A man whose own time is coming to an end, and who wishes to rebuild the world as he sees fit, in an act of megalomania that also demonstrates a defiant attitude toward death. All qualities that could be inferred or speculated to belong to someone like Stromberg, but which in the hands of Mason could've had a different "flavor".

    thedove wrote: »
    I can't see him barking with the same ferociousness of Lonsdale. "JAWS EXPELL THEM!!!"
    I can't quite visualize it either. It just would've felt different.

    I think Mason playing Drax would've been a bit like John Barry scoring the film: playing it straight, ignoring (or rather, gliding over) the silliness, bringing out the emotions that one would imagine a man like Drax would feel. Lonsdale, on the other hand, gave the role a more playful quality. He played into the Bond villain tropes with dry humor. Not that I don't enjoy that!
  • Posts: 16,154
    If i'm not mistaken, one of the requirements to use the studios in France was to have a French leading actor, hence Lonsdale's casting. I wonder, had James Mason played Drax would we have gotten a French Holly Goodhead instead of Lois?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited April 2020 Posts: 7,021
    Considering Corinne Clery is French, it might have been too much to have two French girls. Perhaps they would've cast a French actress as Holly (since it was the larger of the two roles), but not for the part of Corinne Dufour. This would have required some script changes of course.

    How would Corinne Clery have fared as Holly?
  • ToTheRight wrote: »
    I wonder, had James Mason played Drax would we have gotten a French Holly Goodhead instead of Lois?
    Unless I am mistaken, Carole Bouquet auditioned for the role of Holly Goodhead. Perhaps she would have been selected for the part if Mason was cast as Drax.

    Regarding Mason as Drax, I'm afraid it may have been redundant after Stromberg who was already an aging villain employing Jaws. Afterwards, his presence and his age would have offered new narrative perspectives that would have been very interesting and which have already been discussed here (an old man who knows Earth is doomed and who wishes to save it by creating to a master race). However, the script would probably have been the same and I do not imagine such perspectives to be explored. Mason would have been great but, again, so soon after Stromberg, having a younger antagonist was refreshing.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    In the last Watch-a-long on James Bond and Friends they mentioned that Kim Basinger was originally cast to play the helicopter pilot. But when the plot shifted to France they had to recast the role. Looks like Kim was always destined to be in a Bond movie.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited April 2020 Posts: 7,021
    Forgive me for going back to an earlier "what if" for a moment, but before we change subjects again, I'd like to sneak in a few comments on the possibility of John Barry scoring NSNA, a subject that was originally discussed on page 24, and I wasn't around at the time to share my thoughts on it.

    First, given it was the NSNA people who were after Barry, and not Barry after them, I'm sure he would've demanded authorship of the title song to accept the gig, rather than being forced to integrate someone else's composition into his score. Considering Michel Legrand composed the NSNA song in the end, I'm sure they would have accepted this condition for Barry.

    Second, given Barry was still composing for Bond in those days, it's quite easy to imagine what a score for NSNA would've been like. A stately sound, with the music never reaching the frantic pace of earlier scores such as YOLT. Strings, brass and woodwinds would've been the bread and butter. There is this often-repeated idea that Barry adjusted his instrumentation of the scores, and/or of the Bond theme, to suit the current Bond actor-- the synths for Lazenby, the guitar for Connery, the strings for Moore. I think it's plausible, but not absolutely certain, to think this was true in the late sixties to early seventies. At the tail end of the Moore era and the beginning of the Dalton era, however, it seems more likely to me that Barry was just trying to keep things fresh for himself, rather than reshaping his music for changing actors (otherwise why the guitars in AVTAK?). Considering all this, would Barry have brought back the electric guitar for Connery in NSNA in some capacity? (Not to play the Bond theme, since he couldn't have used it.) Well, it's a possibility. I could see him integrating some non-orchestral instrument into his score, guitar or otherwise, to make it a little more interesting, however, I don't think this would have been because of the film or the lead actor, but simply to keep himself creatively stimulated.

    Third, regarding the absence of the Bond theme in NSNA, it's interesting to note the AVTAK score, which is probably at least an hour long, contains about five minutes of the Bond theme, at most, but is unmistakably and effectively Bondian. (OP, by comparison, uses it a lot, but I believe that had to do with an effort to emphasize the "official" Bond brand against the competing NSNA.) So it's not like Barry really depended on the theme. As mentioned before, I'm sure he would've come up with a solid action theme for NSNA. However, the Bond theme isn't merely action music; it can also be used for suspense, mystery and intrigue. It's a musical summation and representation of all the Bond films have to offer, and of the character of Bond. It's a cool, exciting and dangerous composition. Would Barry have composed another "Bond theme" to make up for the absence of the original, with the purpose of using it as secondary musical material, much like he did in AVTAK? Would he have taken it in the same direction as the original theme? Let's remember Barry composed the 007 theme as an alternate Bond theme of sorts back in the sixties, and that was a fairly different piece of music. Or would have Barry done away with any kind of "Bond theme" and just employed his title song in instrumental form? I could see this happening. The song itself could have embodied the qualities of the original Bond theme, as it often did in his earlier scores --with bold, dramatic, seductive theme songs--, and could have been employed for action, romance or suspense. The song could have been the new Bond theme.

    Fourth, Michel Legrand spoke of how he didn't want to try to recreate the feel of the music of the "official" Bond film series in his score. In the book The Music of James Bond, Legrand stated: "The idea of Never Say Never Again was to bring a distance, an irony, a second layer of connection to the official series, in relation to Connery’s age. Immediately there was a distinction." One can sense that in his score, which has a whimsical, lighthearted quality. I can't see Barry doing this in his music at all, even on request. Had they brought him on board, they would have gotten authentic Bond music.

    Fifth, had Barry agreed to score NSNA, it would no doubt have been an improvement over Legrand's work, especially in the action music. But even James Horner would have done much better.

    Lastly, I think Barry would have never agreed to score NSNA. Doing that would've likely signified the end of both his working relationship with Cubby Broccoli, and his participation in the "official" Bond films. Even if he was nearing the end of his contribution to the Bond saga (something he might've known at the time, or not), to think of throwing it away for a single film made by the competition, whose franchise prospects were limited by legal reasons, would have been a very bad idea.
  • Posts: 4,615
    Mason was pure class IMHO and would have been wasted in Moonraker. In another more "down to earth" Bond, he would have been wonderful.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,418
    Very insightful @mattjoes no need to apologize about going out of order. I think you bring up some great points. We can only wish Barry had been lured to the project. But I think your conclusion is correct, he was loyal to EON
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