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Come on, you must admit that taking a creative gamble in giving Bond a daughter, killing off Leiter, and killing off Bond himself was never going to please all fans, particularly the older miserable gits (like me) who expect a Bond actor to bow out in an uncontroversial manner like all the other actors had done previously, and older diehards like me still expect to see decent amounts of Fleming adapted material too.
It's safe to say SF was the last film that had most Bond fans on board, and that was 10 years ago now.
You're probably right, @peter. The closest a recent Bond film has come to pleasing us all -- most of us-- would be CR, I guess. It's certainly hard to placate the complete fan base.
As far as the negativity is concerned, yes, the notion that the EON folks are conspiring against the Bond fanbase, that's what I have been trying to debunk since the release of NTTD. It's a ludicrous thought.
I'd probably say SF was the last film that had most fans on board, but yes before that it was CR. I feel that film had more universal appeal than SF did (despite BO takings).
I considered SF but I remember this place going crimson when that film was released. We had to ban a few members who just kept spamming the place up with anti-SF speak everywhere, like spraying graffiti on every possible wall. There was some anger over the film.
By the way, a now recognisable pattern was established in 2012. You had the hysterics:
"See? Bond is going GAY! From now on, that's what we'll get, a GAY Bond!"
Yeah, that didn't happen, despite the line "what makes you think this is my first time?" Then you had the mourners:
"I can't believe they killed M--you don't kill M, you just don't!"
You had the cultists:
"Anyone who loves this film doesn't get Bond."
Then you had the Fleming purists:
"Fleming's Bond would never be--" [fill in half the movie]
And, of course, you had the clairvoyants, who "knew" exactly how the next Bond films would turn out.
None of that entitled fan, "fire Babs!", "Whoever loves this film is stupid" crap was dropped in the days of CR or QOS. Since SF, however, it's been a problem that seems to arise with every new release and has taken unfortunate new heights with the release of NTTD.
Reddit is full of this too.
This got me thinking. The ones out of the last nine that I
- adore: GE, CR
- really enjoy: QOS, SP, NTTD
- think are good: TND, SF
- somewhat struggle with: TWINE, DAD
Good: TND
Struggle: TWINE, DAD, NTTD
Feels Dead: SP
I actually wish I could spread aspects of NTTD over all four categories.
"Why can't you agree with me?" is indeed pretty uninteresting conversation, but incessant moaning about most of the Bond films released in the last 30 years isn't particularly compelling either.
Sometimes it's hilarious, like when Spectre came in last in the production design elimination game. (Embarrassing!) But it's mostly tiresome. In the 1990s, U2 was my favorite band, but I think most of what they've done this century is useless white noise. So I'm not going to spend two decades hovering around U2 forums crapping on every new release because I prefer Achtung Baby or whatever.
I like the use of the words "creative gamble", @jetsetwilly , since after doing this for sixty years, I have great admiration for the producers (who inherited the series), still take gambles, instead of wash, rinse repeat.
To me it shows they still care.
Meanwhile, I didn't say that their gamble in NTTD wouldn't upset people, but what I find curious is that some feel the creatives went out of their way to upset them. And that's ludicrous.
In the end they took a "creative gamble" that finished off this era. Some liked it, a small minority loved it (I am in this camp, but I still understand the contrary position to mine), others didn't like it. There is no magic formula for making films. If there was a magic formula, every movie would hit it out of the park (but wouldn't life be boring if everyone absolutely loved everything?).
Perfectly stated @DarthDimi ...
I think that's true of most male-dominated fan based forums. You even seem to see the same characters pop up on different forums. It's almost like there's specific types of people that frequent these boards.
I do think people take it personally, when someone says "I don't like such-and-such". I've said several times that people who really like NTTD are lucky, because they get to enjoy the latest Bond film. I can only image my congratulations must come across as sarcasm, because I've had people quite hostile when I try to explain my reasons for not liking it.
It's funny how people get defensive about movies and pop stars. We're all allowed to have our own tastes in food and clothes, and other stuff. But come online and say you don't like XYZ about something in popular culture and you have to be prepared for some VERY precious and mardy comebacks.
I got a similar response with SF. I was mad at myself for not seeing what everyone else clearly was but some of the vitriol and sarcasm I got because I was one of the few who outright didn't like it whatsoever was stunning. Who cares? Some folks here hate GE or QoS or the Brosnan era entirely but I don't lose any sleep over it.
Well, it's common to feel that things just get worse and worse. It's like a fractal. The individual films tend to be considered to have weaker endings than beginnings. Moving up to eras, each actor allegedly starts with their best film and then everyone involved slowly forgets how to make a decent movie. And the series as a whole apparently started with films that were unfathomably brilliant, but generally they get just worse over time.
I'm sure the new guy's first movie will be pretty popular with most people. But disaster will strike quickly!
(It's interesting to consider that pretty much 100% of the universally acclaimed Bond films are either purported Fleming adaptations or they followed a long production gap. Fans don't seem to love completely new Bond things, unless they haven't had any for a while)
SP has myriad problems and results in one big missed opportunity, but I still enjoy all it's composite parts enough that it's a breezy watch and I really enjoy myself with it. But I know it's not well loved. Similarly with NTTD, I really like it but I can understand people's reservations with it.
I don't like TB, and I really don't like YOLT, or OP... but I see a lot of love for these films here and I always revisit them with an open mind and heart, always catching things I missed last time.
I have a lot of opinions that I would say aren't shared by the Bond Community at large; but I feel that my own experience with Bond is much, much richer for interacting in a community of people with differing opinions than mine.
This is a brilliant movie.
Everything made since has been shit, really.
:))
Quite right.
I loved the Dalton era, but didn't like the Brosnan one. I suffered 4 films before I got the film I wanted again, with CR, so the series can change course of direction again to something I like.
The franchise has had a history of doing this. Every time it loses its way trying to be different, or appeal to a different set of fans, it usually corrects itself again (YOLT/OHMSS/DAF, MR/FYEO, AVTAK/TLD, DAD/CR). I'm guessing the next Bond film may bring back something that I may like and you may not.
You've said something I agree with - :)
Films for me were for pleasure, I'm watching them, enjoying them but I don't take them seriously.
This is not politics where you're going to risk your dignity in arguing with someone.
I admit, there's some Bond films that I didn't liked, but I'm not going to rant about them for always, unless, there's a specific discussion that gives me the freedom to voice out my reasons of why I didn't liked that film, but I'm not going to share them in every thread or discussion, and especially I'm not going to be harsh to the point of hating them.
There's some opinions from some other Bond fans telling their hatred towards a particular film that gets into my nerves, but I'm not going into an argument with them, unless it's trolling and very unreasonable or their use of words aren't tolerable, that's where I'm going to call them out, mainly because of their attitude, not because of their feelings towards that film.
Guaranteed, some opinions are ruining my enjoyment of these films or even spoiling it out for me, but I'm going out of that discussion for a while and find some fresh air to breathe in, like getting into Marvel movies or music, timeout from Bond discussions and everything Bond. Then when everything's alright again, that's when I'm going to watch these Bond films, I'm just having my diversion to avoid myself from these so called 'Toxic Fandom'.
I don't let myself get affected by such an opinion.
I enjoyed reading those, thanks guys. It's made me feel a little more comfortable because I've had exactly the same experience on here, with people even telling me I should stop posting, and being quite judgmental about me personally, (even though it's not personal as such, on a message-board with a screen-name). But I've felt a little peeved because I've never once suggested that people stop saying something, or that their opinion is wrong, but it's happened to me a lot. I think I may have suffered a bit from 'new member syndrome'. I started back here in November with a new screen name and people might have thought I was a Johnny-come-lately that joined in just to bash the new movie. I've got to cut them some slack for that.
But as far as taking critisism of pop culture to heart, I put it down to this simple fact; some people see critisism of something they like, as a judgment of their taste or even their commitment. And it shouldn't be seen as that.
For example, I like most fruit, but I don't care for bananas. If I see someone eating a banana I can say 'ugh, bananas are horrible, I like apples much better' and they won't get uppity. They won't give a fiddler's fart what fruit I like, it won't affect their future banana enjoyment and they won't be angry with me for not liking bananas, will they? Yet when it comes to pop culture - films, bands, TV shows, tell someone you don't like something they like and they'll act like you've just pissed in their cornflakes.
I know this is the usual line, but I think it's well overstated. The slightly-ridiculous DAF wasn't really "corrected" in LALD, and fans loathe Spectre, but NTTD served up another big helping of it. FYEO and CR were definitely reactionary, but even there, I don't think the claim that MR is so much sillier than TSWLM is a serious one. Budget issues and an intended change of actor were also in play there.
That's nice of you to say.
It's true what you say about a 'honeymoon phase'. Since seeing my first Bond films in the cinema in the 70's, NTTD is the only Bond film that I've not enjoyed on first viewing. I remember coming out of DAD buzzing. Seriously, I was well into PB's Bond back then and I thought it was quite the spectacle. One can get carried along with the excitement, they hype even, (I was on alt.fan;jamesbond usenet group then, and I remember it being very pro-DAD after the film came out).
But NTTD is the only Bond film I can honestly say I didn't like on first viewing. I hoped it would improve on subsequent watches, but the opposite is true.
You're welcome!
And yes, I totally feel you there. It's a pretty shocking feeling when you've been a fan for so long and that happens (and you've clearly been enjoying them for longer than I have so I can't imagine what that experience must've been like for you after so many decades).