NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,279
    I remember the Mark Kermode film review of NTTD, and Simon Mayo asked the question that I've asked on here. It was along the lines of "what none sci-fi film series has ever killed off a character and bought the character back without explanation". And Kermode was replying with "what part of 'alternate timeline' don't you understand?". I was pleased to hear Mayo point that out, because I thought it was just me that found the 'alternate time' concept to be out of place in a series that is based in real-world science.

    That’s only the case if the films actually acknowledge that conceit in the stories, like having characters mention the concept of alternate universes.

    So far, OHMSS is the only film to acknowledge such a thing with Lazenby’s fourth wall break, if such a thing even counts.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    peter wrote: »
    In my own life, I've yet to meet anyone who is a casual film watcher/Bond fan, who is confused by the end of NTTD and the start of the next era.

    A few have asked me: does that mean they've ended the series?

    I reply, no, they're in the process of launching a reboot.

    And that's the end of that topic.

    Audiences get it.

    Same here, that’s usually how the topic goes for me when I talk to friends on the subject, but then I’ll log onto here and see someone post that the Bond who died at the end of NTTD is the same exact Bond we’ve been following in the films since Dr. No. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry to some folks unfortunately.

    Agreed @007ClassicBondFan ... When I walked out of NTTD , I knew there would be fans who would absolutely despise the ending. What I wasn't prepared for was the confusion of how the series would continue, now that Bond was dead.
  • mattjoesmattjoes J.W. Pepper winner J.W. Pepper.
    Posts: 7,074
    I remember the Mark Kermode film review of NTTD, and Simon Mayo asked the question that I've asked on here. It was along the lines of "what none sci-fi film series has ever killed off a character and bought the character back without explanation". And Kermode was replying with "what part of 'alternate timeline' don't you understand?". I was pleased to hear Mayo point that out, because I thought it was just me that found the 'alternate time' concept to be out of place in a series that is based in real-world science.

    That’s only the case if the films actually acknowledge that conceit in the stories, like having characters mention the concept of alternate universes.
    That's right. In the world of the Bond films (including No Time to Die and Bond 26), there are no such things as alternate universes, reboots or whatever. The Bond films are not sci-fi. And frankly, while the Colonel has repeatedly, repeatedly claimed to understand all this, I just don't see it. I don't think he does.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    I first got into the franchise in 2009 when I was 11, and it seemed to be pretty common knowledge that the latest films were in a different continuity.

    What the hell happened?
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 222
    It’s ’alternate universes’ outside of the narrative. Or, to put it a simpler way, different adaptations of the same literary character.
    There is *not* a Jack Ryan Multiverse.
    There is not even an Anne Of Green Gables multiverse, or a Sherlock Holmes one, or a Poirot one.
    Prior to very recently, everyone knew that Keaton, Bale and Affleck were *not* in a multiverse, there were just different adaptations.
    Continuity in Bond has ever been loose, good for the odd scene, but basically since Moore at the very least, and certainly since Dalton and Brosnan came in as younger Bonds, it is quite obvious that each is pretty much their own thing.
    The Craig Era made that explicit *from the very beginning* and in that sense, killing the character is no different to us seeing Judi M making him a double O.

    Most people get that, if they have followed the films even slightly to be honest.
  • peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    In my own life, I've yet to meet anyone who is a casual film watcher/Bond fan, who is confused by the end of NTTD and the start of the next era.

    A few have asked me: does that mean they've ended the series?

    I reply, no, they're in the process of launching a reboot.

    And that's the end of that topic.

    Audiences get it.

    Same here, that’s usually how the topic goes for me when I talk to friends on the subject, but then I’ll log onto here and see someone post that the Bond who died at the end of NTTD is the same exact Bond we’ve been following in the films since Dr. No. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry to some folks unfortunately.

    Agreed @007ClassicBondFan ... When I walked out of NTTD , I knew there would be fans who would absolutely despise the ending. What I wasn't prepared for was the confusion of how the series would continue, now that Bond was dead.

    I wasn’t prepared for that either. It kind of took me by surprise given that we’ve already had the series be rebooted once, and I can’t remember to the best of my memory if that decision brought as much confusion amongst some fans. I definitely know that EON was somewhat criticized for rebooting the whole thing, but they literally had no other choice after DAD. It’s the same scenario here somewhat.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited December 2023 Posts: 8,279
    peter wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    In my own life, I've yet to meet anyone who is a casual film watcher/Bond fan, who is confused by the end of NTTD and the start of the next era.

    A few have asked me: does that mean they've ended the series?

    I reply, no, they're in the process of launching a reboot.

    And that's the end of that topic.

    Audiences get it.

    Same here, that’s usually how the topic goes for me when I talk to friends on the subject, but then I’ll log onto here and see someone post that the Bond who died at the end of NTTD is the same exact Bond we’ve been following in the films since Dr. No. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry to some folks unfortunately.

    Agreed @007ClassicBondFan ... When I walked out of NTTD , I knew there would be fans who would absolutely despise the ending. What I wasn't prepared for was the confusion of how the series would continue, now that Bond was dead.

    I wasn’t prepared for that either. It kind of took me by surprise given that we’ve already had the series be rebooted once, and I can’t remember to the best of my memory if that decision brought as much confusion amongst some fans. I definitely know that EON was somewhat criticized for rebooting the whole thing, but they literally had no other choice after DAD. It’s the same scenario here somewhat.

    I do recall CraigNotBond.com in 2006 have a HUGE gripe over CR rebooting thus “throwing away” continuity, as if that ever actually mattered in the grand scheme of things. It’s not as if OCTOPUSSY informs the TOMORROW NEVER DIES. But there definitely was the contingent of fans that hated that Brosnan wasn’t given CR as his fifth film.

    Funnily, Craig’s run would start to integrate elements from the previous films anyway in the form of Easter eggs, like Robert Brown’s M having a portrait up in the halls of MI6. Does that mean OCTOPUSSY is “canon” in Craig’s run? Not necessarily. It’s just a fun little detail fans will pick up when they see it.
  • Posts: 2,090
    For me, literary characters don't age. I don't think to myself that Connery's Bond would be approaching 100. As the series moves from one actor to next, I accept the changes in actors and the years in which he is working. Literary time is not real time. Bond is always at home during the times in which the series is filmed. When Bond 26 arrives, I will ignore the end of NTTD and continue to think about the series as I always have. Yet another great adventure that began with DN and continues without regard to time.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,200
    peter wrote: »
    In my own life, I've yet to meet anyone who is a casual film watcher/Bond fan, who is confused by the end of NTTD and the start of the next era.

    A few have asked me: does that mean they've ended the series?

    I reply, no, they're in the process of launching a reboot.

    And that's the end of that topic.

    Audiences get it.

    Tbf, yeh - I've had that very conversation myself and that's exactly how it went.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,279
    If Bond films are supposed be adamant with the conceit that world of James Bond should work the same way as our own reality, how do we address the presence of Baron Samedi at the end of LALD?
  • mattjoesmattjoes J.W. Pepper winner J.W. Pepper.
    edited December 2023 Posts: 7,074
    If Bond films are supposed be adamant with the conceit that world of James Bond should work the same way as our own reality, how do we address the presence of Baron Samedi at the end of LALD?

    While this is a reasonable point to make, it doesn't change another key point: the fact they have rebooted the Bond films in the past (and are going to do it again) does not imply they're fantasy, or sci-fi, or that they don't work in the same way as our own reality.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 222
    They’ve had SF elements since Dr.No. Or at least would have more obviously if they had went with Honey having a problem with giant radioactive crabs.
  • edited December 2023 Posts: 1,095
    mtm wrote: »
    So did you expect to see Felix on one leg forevermore in the series?
    If you can accept that the Bond of the novels and the Bond of the films exist in different worlds (and surely you do?), then why do you have to believe in sci-fi for two films to be set in different worlds?
    .

    Man, if I had my way, I'd want Felix with a hook, and played as a sandy-haired Texan. I don't think he's ever been portrayed in the movies as good as Fleming wrote him.

    Anyway, I don't think the Bond series is sci-fi, I just think it's borrowing from comic book and sci-fi movies by having this timeline thing. It's fantastical, but not 'fantasy'. Fantasy is Lord of the Rings and stuff like that. Stuff with magic in. Harry Piper, all that.

    And I do understand the nature of a reboot, just like I understood what they did with Bobby Ewing in the shower. That doesn't mean I have to like it! If a movie series can kill off its main character, then simply start again with a new story and he's alive again, how can they expect us to care about the plight of the character? It's not good storytelling, not to me anyway.

    But everyone has done a great job of explaining it all, and pointing out my ignorance in these matters. I'll try and approach the next Bond film in the spirit you've all suggested.
  • WhyBondWhyBond USA
    Posts: 69
    It was Pierce Brosnan's Bond that snuck into the Jamaica villa and left a half smoked delectados cigar.

  • mattjoesmattjoes J.W. Pepper winner J.W. Pepper.
    Posts: 7,074
    Anyway, I don't think the Bond series is sci-fi, I just think it's borrowing from comic book and sci-fi movies by having this timeline thing.
    So what? Is the concept of rebooting a film series inherently tied to comic book and sci-fi movies? No, it's not, it's merely been applied to a greater extent by those films, because of practical and commercial considerations that have nothing to do with the genre of those films. And just to be extra clear, a film like Batman Begins, which is a reboot, is not the same as a film like The Flash, a film whose story involves multiple timelines.

    That doesn't mean I have to like it! If a movie series can kill off its main character, then simply start again with a new story and he's alive again, how can they expect us to care about the plight of the character? It's not good storytelling, not to me anyway.
    This is true, you don't have to like it.

    How can they expect one to care about the plight of the character? Simple, in Bond 26, when they show Bond in peril, one will naturally want to see him get out of it. Who's going to be thinking about the fact it's a different actor, or that they rebooted the films, or whatever? The immediacy of the situation will take precedence over any of that. The ticking bomb, the approaching assassins, etc.

    But everyone has done a great job of explaining it all, and pointing out my ignorance in these matters. I'll try and approach the next Bond film in the spirit you've all suggested.
    The sarcasm and fake self-pity doesn't help.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,899
    The Today Programme on Radio 4 had Messrs Purvis & Wade on this morning talking about NTTD:

  • Posts: 2,090
    Why don't we? Yeah, yeah, okay. It sorta brings it to an end. Always been wanting to kill him. It just kind of happened, as the stories developed.

    A wishy washy explanation at best.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited December 2023 Posts: 9,518
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Why don't we? Yeah, yeah, okay. It sorta brings it to an end. Always been wanting to kill him. It just kind of happened, as the stories developed.

    A wishy washy explanation at best.

    Not at all.

    Number one, they were being humorous about always trying to kill Bond, as in: in every 007 adventure, they create characters who are, indeed, trying to bury our hero. So yes, as writers, they're always thinking of ways of killing James Bond.

    And number two, as storytellers, they looked at the Craig Era as a whole, and they saw that the stories, whether up your alley, or retroactively done, are connected, and the natural conclusion to the Hero Cycle led to James Bond's ultimate sacrifice.

    Nothing wishy-washy at all about what they said.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2023 Posts: 3,200
    Well, tbf, Purvis and Wade didn't actually have a say in the decision to kill Bond, right? Danny Boyle: 'The truth is that Daniel had negotiated with them (EON) as part of his deal that he could die... That was built in.' So, whoever ended up writing the script, the writers just had to find a way to accommodate it, right?
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited December 2023 Posts: 9,518
    Venutius wrote: »
    Well, tbf, Purvis and Wade didn't actually have a say in the decision to kill Bond, right? Danny Boyle: 'The truth is that Daniel had negotiated with them (EON) as part of his deal that he could die... That was built in.' So, whoever ended up writing the script, the writers just had to find a way to accommodate it, right?

    You're right @Venutius ... If anything, they oversimplified in explanation what was a more complex process to deliver Bond's death.

    And when you get a writing assignment, it's 100% expected to get notes from the producers with a list of plot points they want to see in the script. Writing a Bond film isn't done on spec. It's an assignment with goals producers want, and you now have to creatively, and organically, execute their ideas- hence looking at the entire Craig Era and seeing how they're connected. Following the Hero Cycle, seeing his birth, his journey, his adventure, the natural conclusion for this interpretation of the character is his death.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited December 2023 Posts: 3,200
    Makes sense. Cheers for the clarification, Peter.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,061
    Well the producers did it because it was a good storytelling idea.

    They were not held hostage by Craig, it was a decision they took on and are responsible for. Good on them, it paid off at a difficult time for the franchise and the world in general.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,518
    Well the producers did it because it was a good storytelling idea.

    They were not held hostage by Craig, it was a decision they took on and are responsible for. Good on them, it paid off at a difficult time for the franchise and the world in general.

    I agree 💯 @RichardTheBruce
  • mattjoesmattjoes J.W. Pepper winner J.W. Pepper.
    Posts: 7,074
    They were not held hostage by Craig, it was a decision they took on and are responsible for.

    Be funny if they had been, though. "Either you kill me off in the next film, or I kill you off right now."

    daniel-craig-2001.png?w=543
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,899
    I love that you needed a photo of Daniel Craig with a gun (which is not an unusual image!) and picked a Tomb Raider one :D
  • mattjoesmattjoes J.W. Pepper winner J.W. Pepper.
    Posts: 7,074
    mtm wrote: »
    I love that you needed a photo of Daniel Craig with a gun (which is not an unusual image!) and picked a Tomb Raider one :D

    Haha =)) I guess he's more Alex West than Bond in real life. And looked fifteen years younger for some reason?
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited 12:11pm Posts: 8,559
    What I still don't understand is, if this is supposed to be the film where Bond gets married and settles down why not start from there, rather than having Bond and his lover broken up and estranged for a good chunk of the story? It would be like if instead of the love story montage in OHMSS Bond and Tracy only started to thaw with eachother once they are reunited at the ice rink. I've always said that if the meat of the story is Bond adapting to having a family, then you should get there as fast as possible, just like Bond and Tracy are fully in love by the end of the first act. Then that leaves you enough time to really explore that premise and drive home the tragedy of his eventual sacrifice. Instead all of that potential for story gets compressed into a few brief scenes of Bond cutting up an apple. When we get to the final scenes I don't feel as if there's a lot to be invested in, because we never saw Bond and Madeline as a settled, happy couple, and Bond barely seems to have adjust to the realisation he's a father until moments before his death. Whatever they were going for, it seems that it was severely mishandled.
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