What if Goldeneye had an amazing score?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    For tradition, I really would have liked to hear what Barry would have done if he came back instead of Arnold getting the gig. It would have at least not sound like a fanboy tribute.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited June 2020 Posts: 7,553
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like both ends of the spectrum. I adore, truly adore, Serra's avant-garde score for GE, like I do all of his scores. Having said that, I can appreciate the more traditional approach of Arnold's as well.

    Same here, although I'll say you likely have a finer appreciation for Serra's body of work than I do; I like the score in GE, and like Arnold's stuff as well, as you say.
  • Posts: 7,507
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like both ends of the spectrum. I adore, truly adore, Serra's avant-garde score for GE, like I do all of his scores. Having said that, I can appreciate the more traditional approach of Arnold's as well.

    "Avant garde"?? That seems to be stretching it a bit...
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    I think that's pretty accurate, especially for Bond scores.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I like both ends of the spectrum. I adore, truly adore, Serra's avant-garde score for GE, like I do all of his scores. Having said that, I can appreciate the more traditional approach of Arnold's as well.

    Me too, am a Huge fan of Serra and Arnold. In an Interview, Arnold said all Bond Composers should infuse Barry's Sound in their own original scores, but Arnold said Serra's score still has the Bond DNA even if he didn't use Barry's Sound.

    Arnold using Barry's Sound, with frequent use of the Bond theme is because he's a Huge Bond fan. Sometimes, it feels as if Arnold can even take a Paycut to Compose a Bond Score. For example, if any of us in this forum were to compose an original song, or direct a short film or feature film or direct a music video or write a fictional Book, do a painting or drawing, write and design a comic book, or any form of art, one way or another, elements of James Bond would definitely be found in them.

    I also think EON weren't ready for an Avant-Garde Bond score, because Bond didn't change then....Brosnan's Bond was still part of the Classic era. So Barry's stamp was still very much within the franchise. And Arnold knew that. Once we got to Craig's Bond, the sound started changing, although CR had a bit of the Brosnan sound still lingering here and there, even with CR's originality.

    With QoS, Arnold went with a new Bond sound that still retains the Bond DNA with hints of Barry. I consider QoS to be the Avant-Garde Bond Score that won EON over. Coz after QoS, Eon were ready for a new Bond sound. EON might have fully embraced a Serra Bond Score today, since they accepted Newman's Bond. One could say Arnold paved the way for Newman. Back in 1997, Arnold's QoS Score wouldn't have worked and Back in 1995, EON weren't ready for a Serra or Newman-type Bond Score. Before EON parted ways with Romer, they were willing to accept any new Sound from any Composer, especially after Newman....maybe Romer's sound didn't have the Bond DNA at all, Thus Zimmer was called upon to save the day....In an interview, Arnold even said Zimmer creates impressive sounds.
  • ResurrectionResurrection Kolkata, India
    Posts: 2,541
    For tradition, I really would have liked to hear what Barry would have done if he came back instead of Arnold getting the gig. It would have at least not sound like a fanboy tribute.

    Agreed either Barry or someone who can do their own thing. Although i do enjoy Arnold's score in DAD & QOS. Either let one composer do all the score for every era or bring someone new every film.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    edited June 2020 Posts: 5,131
    It doesn't surprise me that Arnold admitted that he approached scoring the film as if he was a fan, because it feels very much like a fanboy score. It felt like a step backward for Bond music. His best stuff in TND was bits like "Hamburg Break In" where he broke out the electronics and does something that isn't just a slavish recreation of what the 60s scores sounded like.

    The modern recreation of what the 60s scores sounded like is exactly why I love TND’s score. You call it slavish and I see your point. But I see it as embracing an internationally recognisable ‘Bondian sound.’ I was also relieved after GE in all honesty.

    My main criticism of Arnold is the drum and base he incorporated into his later scores, trying to be ‘cool/modern’ but really having no place in Bond in my opinion.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    suavejmf wrote: »
    It doesn't surprise me that Arnold admitted that he approached scoring the film as if he was a fan, because it feels very much like a fanboy score. It felt like a step backward for Bond music. His best stuff in TND was bits like "Hamburg Break In" where he broke out the electronics and does something that isn't just a slavish recreation of what the 60s scores sounded like.

    The modern recreation of what the 60s scores sounded like is exactly why I love TND’s score. You call it slavish and I see your point. But I see it as embracing an internationally recognisable ‘Bondian sound.’ I was also relieved after GE in all honesty.

    My main criticism of Arnold is the drum and base he incorporated into his later scores, trying to be ‘cool/modern’ but really having no place in Bond in my opinion.

    Agreed. Some of it was subtle and enhanced the mood and feel, rooting it firmly in the modern day. However, there were times when it was overused.
  • OctopussyOctopussy Piz Gloria, Schilthorn, Switzerland.
    Posts: 1,081
    They’re free to that opinion, I just don’t agree with the producers. Eric Serra wasn’t making a traditional score, but I never cared for traditions and think people in Bond fandom put waaaaay too much stock onto that. A David Arnold GE score just sounds utterly soul crushing.

    I couldn't agree more.
    It doesn't surprise me that Arnold admitted that he approached scoring the film as if he was a fan, because it feels very much like a fanboy score. It felt like a step backward for Bond music. His best stuff in TND was bits like "Hamburg Break In" where he broke out the electronics and does something that isn't just a slavish recreation of what the 60s scores sounded like.

    Yes, Tomorrow Never Dies and The World Is Not Enough sound like they were cut from the same cloth, IMO. I've always found Arnold grossly overrated and his best work to be that of Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace where he had to withhold from using the Bond theme, IMO. Outside of those soundtracks he overused the theme and didn't bring anything new or original to the table. I'd argue that Die Another Day is probably his best score from the Brosnan era, because at least he made an attempt at something new. I love the Bond theme as much as anyone, but it doesn't make my hairs stand on end when it's being used too often, whereas if it's used sparingly it makes the moment truly special - take the final scene of Casino Royale as a case in point.

    I have always loved Serra's score and not only for nostalgia. The mix of synthesizers and drums is a perfect accompaniment to the Cold War tone of the film. I absolutely love Serra's take on the Bond theme in the entirety of the score, particularly in the GB sequence. The way in which Serra also adds sounds like the bells of snow dogs into particularly cues is inspired too.



    I admire the fact that Serra succumb to "traditional" Bond sounds and followed his own vision of what he believed a Bond soundtrack should sound like. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery in the case of Arnold, but unfortunately his scores feel like poor mans Barry, IMO. Serra's score is what makes Goldeneye unique.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    I think using percussion to play the Bond riff in the gunbarrel was rather inspired, and I don't think I even noticed the first time I saw it. It's a proper gunbarrel.

    I've always wondered if he sampled the Goldfinger fanfare for it though? It always sounds very similar to my ear.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    mtm wrote: »
    I think using percussion to play the Bond riff in the gunbarrel was rather inspired, and I don't think I even noticed the first time I saw it. It's a proper gunbarrel.

    I've always wondered if he sampled the Goldfinger fanfare for it though? It always sounds very similar to my ear.

    Yeah, Serra said Goldfinger is his favourite Bond film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    mtm wrote: »
    I think using percussion to play the Bond riff in the gunbarrel was rather inspired, and I don't think I even noticed the first time I saw it. It's a proper gunbarrel.

    The percussion is a solid addition to the gunbarrel, indeed it is. I was astonished back in the '90s to discover that it wasn't on the soundtrack CD. Luckily, later attempts at expanding the soundtrack lifted it from the movie copy, cleaned it up to the best of their abilities and opened the "score" with it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    After the expanded soundtrack releases for TWINE and DAD, I really hope GE gets one soon.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited June 2020 Posts: 4,247
    After the expanded soundtrack releases for TWINE and DAD, I really hope GE gets one soon.

    Yeah, I need that too....from La-La Land Records you mean?....I would also like one for Hamlisch's TSWLM as well.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    That would be great... and greatly deserved.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Although, GE already has an expanded score, although not entirely complete....like the track where Bond and Natalya are tied & trapped in the Tiger Helicopter isn't there....Hoping La-La Land releases a Complete Score Soon.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.


    There's an expanded edition of the score floating around out there. You can actually buy it on CD (as I did), so it's not an illegal download or something. It has this amazing track on it, albeit not entirely devoid of SFX, sadly. It's the best we can find right now, though. So yes, I too would very much like to see them remaster the scores you mention. I dream of a remastered MR score but alas, it has been explained to me countless times that no such thing will be possible given that the original recordings probably no longer exist.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I think using percussion to play the Bond riff in the gunbarrel was rather inspired, and I don't think I even noticed the first time I saw it. It's a proper gunbarrel.

    The percussion is a solid addition to the gunbarrel, indeed it is. I was astonished back in the '90s to discover that it wasn't on the soundtrack CD. Luckily, later attempts at expanding the soundtrack lifted it from the movie copy, cleaned it up to the best of their abilities and opened the "score" with it.

    The Gunbarrel riff is good, I agree.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Also given the amount of unused cues on the official release, I can imagine how many more unused cues there might be that we never even heard of. One of the things that upset Serra was how the post-production team placed certain cues in moments he didn’t intend, like how “ Run, Shoot, and Jump" was used in the climax on loop instead the intended cue.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,428
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Yeah LTK is a funny old album, all chopped up.
    I enjoy it in the film but probably wouldn't buy a new CD of it though.
    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.


    Yes that is a nice little cue. I'm trying to think of much else that is missing... I guess the sauna bit...? There's not much that isn't represented on the official CD is there?

    Wasn't it supposed to be a limited edition in fact? Has anyone not got a gold CD? :D
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited June 2020 Posts: 8,218
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.


    There's an expanded edition of the score floating around out there. You can actually buy it on CD (as I did), so it's not an illegal download or something. It has this amazing track on it, albeit not entirely devoid of SFX, sadly. It's the best we can find right now, though. So yes, I too would very much like to see them remaster the scores you mention. I dream of a remastered MR score but alas, it has been explained to me countless times that no such thing will be possible given that the original recordings probably no longer exist.

    One can still dream, @DarthDimi :)
    mtm wrote: »
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Yeah LTK is a funny old album, all chopped up.
    I enjoy it in the film but probably wouldn't buy a new CD of it though.

    I love Kamen's music in general so I'll be there day one if it ever happens. I bought the complete Lethal Weapon collection when it came out, too.

    A lot of criticisms of his work on LTK seem to come from a line of thinking that the score is a bit too anonymous, but I think Kamen's style is instantly recognisable and it's very big, very ballsy and full of personality. His action writing is superb. It's like Bond music on steroids - which in itself is a summary of why people generally love it or dislike it, I always thought.

    mtm wrote: »
    I'm trying to think of much else that is missing... I guess the sauna bit...? There's not much that isn't represented on the official CD is there?

    Wasn't it supposed to be a limited edition in fact? Has anyone not got a gold CD? :D

    Haha! I still have mine, anyway. Still in good nick, too. It also has really nice liner photos.

    As for what's missing; I'm not sure there's anything huge at this stage other than the cues mentioned above. The tank chase is really the only biggy. A lot of the rest of the score, especially stuff featured towards the end of the film, seems to be "film version" edits of themes that are present on the CD in one way or another.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.


    There's an expanded edition of the score floating around out there. You can actually buy it on CD (as I did), so it's not an illegal download or something. It has this amazing track on it, albeit not entirely devoid of SFX, sadly. It's the best we can find right now, though. So yes, I too would very much like to see them remaster the scores you mention. I dream of a remastered MR score but alas, it has been explained to me countless times that no such thing will be possible given that the original recordings probably no longer exist.

    One can still dream, @DarthDimi :)

    Exactly. For now, I must say, I'm quite pleased with the beautiful (almost) full scores we have been given. :)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2020 Posts: 16,428
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Another exciting cue that I'd love to hear from Serra's score that has never been released is from the scene where Bond and Natalya are trapped in the Tiger helicopter.


    There's an expanded edition of the score floating around out there. You can actually buy it on CD (as I did), so it's not an illegal download or something. It has this amazing track on it, albeit not entirely devoid of SFX, sadly. It's the best we can find right now, though. So yes, I too would very much like to see them remaster the scores you mention. I dream of a remastered MR score but alas, it has been explained to me countless times that no such thing will be possible given that the original recordings probably no longer exist.

    One can still dream, @DarthDimi :)
    mtm wrote: »
    More Bond music is always welcome. I'd also love some remasters of the older scores, OHMSS etc. License To Kill also deserves a proper expansion, too.

    Yeah LTK is a funny old album, all chopped up.
    I enjoy it in the film but probably wouldn't buy a new CD of it though.

    I love Kamen's music in general so I'll be there day one if it ever happens. I bought the complete Lethal Weapon collection when it came out, too.

    A lot of criticisms of his work on LTK seem to come from a line of thinking that the score is a bit too anonymous, but I think Kamen's style is instantly recognisable and it's very big, very ballsy and full of personality. His action writing is superb. It's like Bond music on steroids - which in itself is a summary of why people generally love it or dislike it, I always thought.

    Yeah it's definitely very punchy exciting music, I do like it but there's not a lot of it I like to listen to outside the film. His arrangement of the Bond theme is pretty great and very original: he makes it his own. I don't just mean the latin guitar, but how he actually writes the sequences it features in.
    mtm wrote: »
    I'm trying to think of much else that is missing... I guess the sauna bit...? There's not much that isn't represented on the official CD is there?

    Wasn't it supposed to be a limited edition in fact? Has anyone not got a gold CD? :D

    Haha! I still have mine, anyway. Still in good nick, too. It also has really nice liner photos.

    As for what's missing; I'm not sure there's anything huge at this stage other than the cues mentioned above. The tank chase is really the only biggy. A lot of the rest of the score, especially stuff featured towards the end of the film, seems to be "film version" edits of themes that are present on the CD in one way or another.

    Yeah, even if it's not exactly the cues in the film I think all of the main themes are covered on the CD. I guess the orchestral bit when the dish is destroyed is unlike most on the CD, but it's short and might possibly be Altman again..?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    That was Serra. Again, all Altman did was the brief bit at the archive and the tank chase.

    One cue I’d like is from the Severnaya sequence with Orumov and Xenia activating the Goldeneye. It’s mostly ambience but it’s very effective.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    That was Serra. Again, all Altman did was the brief bit at the archive and the tank chase.

    One cue I’d like is from the Severnaya sequence with Orumov and Xenia activating the Goldeneye. It’s mostly ambience but it’s very effective.

    Isn't that more or less in the 'Fatal Weakness' track on the soundstrack?

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That was Serra. Again, all Altman did was the brief bit at the archive and the tank chase.

    One cue I’d like is from the Severnaya sequence with Orumov and Xenia activating the Goldeneye. It’s mostly ambience but it’s very effective.

    Isn't that more or less in the 'Fatal Weakness' track on the soundstrack?


    Some of that was used, but I’m referring to the section that plays after Xenia shoots the control people and before they leave after activating it.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That was Serra. Again, all Altman did was the brief bit at the archive and the tank chase.

    One cue I’d like is from the Severnaya sequence with Orumov and Xenia activating the Goldeneye. It’s mostly ambience but it’s very effective.

    Isn't that more or less in the 'Fatal Weakness' track on the soundstrack?


    Some of that was used, but I’m referring to the section that plays after Xenia shoots the control people and before they leave after activating it.

    Okay yeah, I think I know what you're referring to. Indeed, that has yet to make it into any release I think.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,023
    suavejmf wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »

    http://jamesbondradio.com/composer-john-altman-explains-what-went-wrong-with-goldeneyes-score-exclusive-by-matthew-chernov/

    According to the attached you are right. But it was too late to sack Serra when they realised. According to Altman, it was Micheal G Wilson who really hated Serra’s score.

    Just as i guessed.Thanks for posting that.

    Pleasure. Allegedly, the Producers were happy with Arnold’s more Barryesque traditional sound in TND. To be fair Arnold made that film seem better than it was with his score in my opinion.

    Barry was complimentary it seems:

    https://www.thejamesbonddossier.com/james-bond-films/tomorrow-never-dies/soundtrack.htm

    You can't get better approval than from the master! Barry had great taste.

    TND is everything a Bond score should be (especially for that film) its big, brassy and great fun 👍
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    suavejmf wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »

    http://jamesbondradio.com/composer-john-altman-explains-what-went-wrong-with-goldeneyes-score-exclusive-by-matthew-chernov/

    According to the attached you are right. But it was too late to sack Serra when they realised. According to Altman, it was Micheal G Wilson who really hated Serra’s score.

    Just as i guessed.Thanks for posting that.

    Pleasure. Allegedly, the Producers were happy with Arnold’s more Barryesque traditional sound in TND. To be fair Arnold made that film seem better than it was with his score in my opinion.

    Barry was complimentary it seems:

    https://www.thejamesbonddossier.com/james-bond-films/tomorrow-never-dies/soundtrack.htm

    You can't get better approval than from the master! Barry had great taste.

    TND is everything a Bond score should be (especially for that film) its big, brassy and great fun 👍

    Exactly.
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