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Moonraker- Why the hate?

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  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I don’t know about the rest of you, guys, but one of the aspects that I’ve always loved about the Bond films is the moderate sci-fi-oriented Armageddon plot that the villain wants to unleash. Throw some military ground into the measure, and you have the sort of Bond film that’s perfect. For me, that is.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,521
    Sort of. I would like another one like FYEO honestly.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Well... we’ve had four. ;)
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,117
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I can't argue with that at all @bondsum

    I suppose the biggest sin of MR is that it is a film that is seemingly aimed predominantly at schoolchildren. That goes against everything Bond stands for and I can understand why, from that perspective, older Bond fans really dislike it.

    At least other "family" orientated Bond films (like Goldfinger and Live and Let Die) had a rougher, more adult edge to them in places. Moonraker is a full-on cartoon in live action form.

    Tell Corinne Dufour that as she's being savaged. Or Bond as he's strapped in the centrifuge. Or the scientists as they choke to death.

    There's plenty of darkness in there and if they could have just trimmed a bit of the comedy excess fat there's every chance MR could be top 10 material. MR is basically like TSWLM that has been overindulging during the Christmas period and just needs to go for a few sessions down the gym to lose some of the flab.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Moore also isn't Bond in the film. He's himself.

    That's what Sean does somewhere around the middle of TB and carries it on for the rest of his tenure and no one ever seems too bothered about it.

    If you're going to say to me 'Let Roger Moore, clearly enjoying himself, be your guide and come with us as we start by throwing men out of planes without parachutes and eventually end up with a full on laser battle in space' I'm not expecting Citizen Kane but I'm also helpless to resist. If Roger is having fun then so is the audience.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Its 2nd bottom in my rankings and it aint gonna move upwards from there,ever.

    You seem to have more faith in EON than myself Sir. Given some of the decisions made on SP I can't rule out another film as bad as DAD.
    BT3366 wrote: »
    If I could offer my own experience with MR as someone who saw it on original release:

    I grew up a Bond fan practically from birth. My uncle had all the novels and gum cards and the family would see each new film as they were released and the many rereleases. TMWTGG was the first I didn't see on original release and on the day I was supposed to see TSWLM I was instead given to chance to go to a Cincinnati Reds baseball game. As they were world champs at the time I opted for that and was kind of bummed I didn't go to the film and didn't see it until its ABC TV premiere in 1980.

    As such, MR felt totally fresh to me as I didn't see TSWLM before. I was one of the many kids blown away by Star Wars and Close Encounters and to see Bond go into space seemed like the coolest thing, especially since I was 12 then. The Bond films were often shown on network TV back then and I recall that spring FRWL was shown and I hardly cared. Yet it was that July 1979 matinee of MR that made me the Bond fan I am today. The gadgets, spectacle and locations all just clicked.

    My brother and I went home after that screening and assembled our own Bond gadgets out of GI Joe (original) accessories. I bought the fan magazine and later the Corgi die-casts and novel adaptations. Bond films became not just required buy mandatory for me when they were on cable or network.

    And to prove it wasn't just the gadgetry that appealed, when OHMSS was shown a Friday evening in March 1980 it immediately became one of my favorites in the series, showing you could have different variations of Bond films that could be enjoyed equally.

    I do remember a family friend the time complaining that MR was childish and nothing like the old films, which seemed like the attitude of the time. Once I finally saw TSWLM on TV I wasn't impressed and to this day it still doesn't qualify as one of my favorites. Makes me wonder if I had seen it on release if it would rank higher and MR would be lower. I was also less than excited by FYEO and it's polar opposite reaction to MR.

    It wasn't until then that a lot of people seemed to turn on MR. I was surprised in late '81 getting the updated James Bond in the Cinema by John Brosnan and The James Bond Films by Stephen Jay Ruben looked down on the film as slapstick and a bad mistake for the franchise. Moore was also looked down on and Connery elevated even higher.

    It felt like you needed to feel guilty in liking MR and I didn't pay a lot of attention to it for years, but with threads like this on Bond sites it was okay to say MR is fun and a worthy addition to the series again. You don't have to dislike it just because you think films like FRWL, SF, CR and OHMSS are the pinnacle. I personally like the diversity of films I'm able to enjoy in different ways.

    Fine words and an excellent post. Count me in as part of the secret underground movement that prefers MR to TSWLM. After the Lotus chase (and even in a few scenes before) TSWLM just seems to drag a bit for me whilst MR just keeps on thundering along like an out of control train. Yes it's going to come off the rails at some point and we're all going to die but until that moment what a ride!
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen the same things said about DAD - that it’s “fun,” and that gives it the edge on other films. Fun can definitely be subjective, because to me the laser battle is cringey while to others it’s fun.

    The difference being that at least MR delivers what it sets out to do very competently. If you're going to go crazily outlandish then at least do it with the best FX of the series backed by some superlative Barry.
    bondjames wrote: »
    Last_Rat_Standing wrote: »
    I don't look at Moonraker in terms of quality. I look at it in terms of enjoyment and fun. That's why it my 5th favorite Bond film
    Same with me. I don't objectively rate it high but in terms of pure entertainment value, it's hard to beat. I feel the same way about the much maligned TMWTGG actually.

    There's no comparison is there? Where MR is a decadent feast for your eyes TMWTGG never ignites and youre left just watching cinematic beige.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    MR is kind of enjoyable for me now, though it still ranks pretty close to the bottom. But @bondsum was right on about how it felt to be a teenager (summer before my senior year of high school), who had been brought up on Bond and had high expectations, going into the theater and realizing that was where the franchise had gotten to, without any sign that it was going to reverse course. It was devastating.

    Admittedly, if I had been seven or eight years younger I might have had a different experience.

    This is a very good point. I have to qualify my MR praise through the prism of nostalgia. If I went to see it at the same age I was when DAD came out I daresay I probably would have been disgusted with the Bondola, the pigeon and the lasers and rank it far lower.

    We do seem to be far more forgiving over the films we saw in our youth than we are today. I can imagine if my 12 year old self had watched SP he might well have found it awesome.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I see a lot of reappraisal for MR lately. And also for DAD. Who could have guessed that just a couple of years ago?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,359
    Every time I watch it, it just gets better it's so damn fun. I hope La La Land records works their magic and give us an expanded score.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Perhaps the huge box office takings from
    Moonraker helped to pay for the future more realistic Bonds. Without it they may never have been made. After all it is Show Business.
    Not Show Art ;-)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    HASEROT wrote: »
    it's just full of too much silly nonsense, too much even for a Roger Moore Bond...

    it's storyarch is essentially a rehash of TSWLM... not to mention the plausibility of the plot and it's climactic ending are too much, even for a Bond film - not in the same yard as DAD, but definitely on the same street...

    plus i never liked Drax's explanation for hijacking back his own shuttle - he needed it because one of his other ones developed a problem during production... okay... THEN BUILD ANOTHER ONE!.. why steal it back, and alert MI6 who will no doubt send their best agent to investigate.. all of that could've been avoided had he simply just built another one - not to mention, when first meeting Bond, he already starts to have him assaulted.. FOR NO REASON YET!!.. i could see if Bond had discovered something against Drax, but he had just arrived, and hadn't had time to formulate who would be a suspect yet... and again, because of his stupid actions, Drax made himself suspect #1..... he's easily the most careless villain in the entire franchise.... usually villains don't want Bond to figure out what they are doing - it seems Drax was all too eager to let the cat out of the bag.... what an idiot.

    yeah, it does have Jaws - except they turned him into a colossal joke...

    none of it's action scenes can be taken seriously - meaning that usually after a big action battle or sequence, there is usually some dumb joke that robs any tension built up.... more often than not, it was with Jaws...

    Michael Lonsdale could put you to sleep faster than NASCAR and a glass of warm milk...

    A Leading lady - who might not have been A typical eye candy.. but who came across as a strong man hating muff diver, and one who did very little to actually make me like her.. actually, had she died in the film - i think it would've been better off.... more likability and charisma was shown by the girl who got eaten by dogs (in her brief screen time) than "our leading lady"

    All true. Although I don't believe personally that Lonsdale was bad in the film. The issues sit entirely with Gilbert and Wood.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Last_Rat_Standing wrote: »
    I don't look at Moonraker in terms of quality. I look at it in terms of enjoyment and fun. That's why it my 5th favorite Bond film
    Same with me. I don't objectively rate it high but in terms of pure entertainment value, it's hard to beat. I feel the same way about the much maligned TMWTGG actually.

    There's no comparison is there? Where MR is a decadent feast for your eyes TMWTGG never ignites and youre left just watching cinematic beige.
    Visually yes, there is definitely no comparison and the earlier film comes across as notably cheap. However, I find the all the characters in TMWTGG to be quite interesting, colourful and animated, in that uniquely Hamilton way. Even those who are on screen for the briefest of moments make a memorable impression on me (the same goes for those in LALD & DAF). That's what ups the entertainment quotient for me. I think OP (and later GE) does the same, for similar reasons. There's an exaggerated charisma to the actors & the characters, even if they aren't fully fleshed out in many cases.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,252
    I don’t see where there’s hate for MR; it’s more of a frustration that it’s many strengths are undermined by the profoundly silly bits.
    It’s a gorgeous, fun film that is good; with a bit of restraint it could have been great.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 2,005
    Moonraker is pure fun, fantastical fun and entertainment. I don't see why its slightly different approach is wrong.

    When we watched Moonraker (it was the third film after DAF and TSWLM) we had the best time with it.
    The "you only blink twice" moment gave us a great laugh.

    MR is extremely strong in the dialogue department, almost as good as DAF.
    The score is almost as good as DAF's as well.

    Yes, there's silly stuff. But that's part of the charm, at least for me.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Andi1996Ruegg wrote: »
    Moonraker is pure fun, fantastical fun and entertainment. I don't see why its slightly different approach is wrong.

    When we watched Moonraker (it was the third film after DAF and TSWLM) we had the best time with it.
    The "you only blink twice" moment gave us a great laugh.

    MR is extremely strong in the dialogue department, almost as good as DAF.
    The score is almost as good as DAF's as well.

    Yes, there's silly stuff. But that's part of the charm, at least for me.
    Well said, laddie!
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    Moonraker works for me.
    There are different Bond movies for different moods, and Moonraker is the fun epic Bond adventure. It's beautifully shot, the locations and scenery is top notch, it looks without a doubt like the most expensive Moore Bond, and i believe it is.

    The score is one of Barrys best, and Goodhead is one of my personal faves.
    Moore is in top form and plays to his personal streghts.
    Drax is a very memorable villain, and totally convincing in such a ridiculous role for some reason ("may i press you to a cucumber sandwich?")

    In the end it's all a matter of perspective.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    With the huge success of the Kingsman films, it would seem apart from
    The haters, many enjoy some over the top, espionage action. With a few
    Jokes thrown in the mix.......... Moonraker ahead of its time ! ;-)
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,600
    Thunderpussy wrote: »
    With the huge success of the Kingsman films, it would seem apart from
    The haters, many enjoy some over the top, espionage action. With a few
    Jokes thrown in the mix.......... Moonraker ahead of its time ! ;-)

    Heck, give me a triple bill of the Kingsman movies and Moonraker Any day.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Glad to see the escapist fantasy spy fiction lovers are increasing by numbers. :D
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Now someone get on with making a few Derek Flint and Matt Helm movies :-D
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited January 2018 Posts: 15,423
    Not to brag about it but, I'm currently working on a Derek Flint script with an actor friend of mine, who himself currently has launched his own TV series on Amazon. :D

    Last I heard of Matt Helm, Universal was developing a film franchise faithfully based on the books rather than Dino's cheesy take on the character. Doug Liman is set to direct, I believe.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Good luck with your endeavours @ClarkeDevlin
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Thank you, @Thunderpussy. :D
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,252
    I love big, over the top, escapist spy films, but a when a when a coldblooded assassin who killed people by ripping their throats out with his teeth is reduced to flapping his arms like wings , and in other ways is reduced to a cartoon buffoon , the lightheartedness has jumped the shark.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    talos7 wrote: »
    I love big, over the top, escapist spy films, but a when a when a coldblooded assassin who killed people by ripping their throats out with his teeth is reduced to flapping his arms like wings , and in other ways is reduced to a cartoon buffoon , the lightheartedness has jumped the shark.

    If it turned out he could actually fly, it would have been better.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,521
    MR isn’t all bad, but it’s burdened in ways other Bond films aren’t in how ridiculous it gets. Alongside DAD, it’s just too over the top for its own good IMO.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Thunderfinger wrote: »
    talos7 wrote: »
    I love big, over the top, escapist spy films, but a when a when a coldblooded assassin who killed people by ripping their throats out with his teeth is reduced to flapping his arms like wings , and in other ways is reduced to a cartoon buffoon , the lightheartedness has jumped the shark.
    If it turned out he could actually fly, it would have been better.
    The Adventures of The FlyMan.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.

    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
    @00Agent, you think?! :))

    bond_23_by_cyberturnip.jpg
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
    @00Agent, you think?! :))

    bond_23_by_cyberturnip.jpg

    Exactly. The first half would have delved deep into his childhood and shown that he was an outsider as a kid and that he got bullied alot by athlete types who got all the girls like Bond.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
    @00Agent, you think?! :))

    bond_23_by_cyberturnip.jpg

    Exactly. The first half would have delved deep into his childhood and shown that he was an outsider as a kid and that he got bullied alot by athlete types who got all the girls like Bond.
    Funnily enough, his background is vastly detailed in the novelization of TSWLM. :D

    His real name is Zbigniew Krycsiwiki in Wood's novelization, and he used to be a basketball player.
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    edited January 2018 Posts: 5,185
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    ClarkDevlin wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
    @00Agent, you think?! :))

    bond_23_by_cyberturnip.jpg

    Exactly. The first half would have delved deep into his childhood and shown that he was an outsider as a kid and that he got bullied alot by athlete types who got all the girls like Bond.
    Funnily enough, his background is vastly detailed in the novelization of TSWLM. :D

    His real name is Zbigniew Krycsiwiki in Wood's novelization, and he used to be a basketball player.

    Oh interesting! I have that book on my shelf right next to me. As soon as i finish LALD it will be next.
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