Moonraker- Why the hate?

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  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    00Agent wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    00Agent wrote: »
    I have to agree with that one. Jaws was made ridiculous in MR, but I can overlook that.
    That was the biggest flaw for me too. It's like the producers wanted to Troll all the people who asked them to bring him back (which was the reason they did). Made no sense.
    I guess people were telling Eon "We like Jaws" so their conclusion was "ok lets make him more likeable" :))
    Who knows, maybe they were working on a spinoff already
    @00Agent, you think?! :))

    bond_23_by_cyberturnip.jpg

    Exactly. The first half would have delved deep into his childhood and shown that he was an outsider as a kid and that he got bullied alot by athlete types who got all the girls like Bond.
    Funnily enough, his background is vastly detailed in the novelization of TSWLM. :D

    His real name is Zbigniew Krycsiwiki in Wood's novelization, and he used to be a basketball player.
    Oh interesting! I have that book on my shelf right next to me. As soon as i finish LALD it will be next.
    Let me know what you think, @00Agent. :)
  • 00Agent00Agent Any man who drinks Dom Perignon '52 can't be all bad.
    Posts: 5,185
    I certainly will
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited January 2018 Posts: 9,019
    My personal view is that Jaws was no more than comic relief from day one. That is, from TSWLM on. I never really thought he might pose a threat. He was just a cartoonish exaggeration of the likes of Oddjob, but no more. I never liked him in that capacity and always thought he was a bit of a foreign object in the film. That being said, his further "demise" in MR didn't make any difference to me at all.

    I'm on the verge of saying that I like MR more than TSWLM. It's just as silly, but has better cinematography, better soundtrack. a better villain, far better dialogue, a slightly better Bond girl (not in terms of looks, but acting ability) and so on. It's a tie in regard of production design since Ken Adam was still around. But other than that, I find it's more re-watchable and considerably less dated than TSWLM, which I so far have been rating 1/10 higher than MR:
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    The two Christoper Wood Novels are very good indeed.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited January 2018 Posts: 15,423
    Bond's encounters with Jaws was based on a metal-headed henchman Matt Helm (Dean Martin) confronted in Murderer's Row, I believe. The reactions, the punchlines, everything seemed quite the same. Helm would punch the man's head and grab his fist in pain, Bond would punch Jaws' teeth and do the same afterwards.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Agreed. The first novelization was purely Fleming.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I have said this elsewhere on here, so sorry for repeating myself, but I find Wood's first novelization to be the closest any writer has come to seamlessly merging Fleming's Bond and the cinematic Bond. It seems impossible, but he actually pulls that off; I can easily believe I'm reading the adventures of either.
    That's true. No arguments from me.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Totally agree with you guys on Christoper Wood's novelizations. They're like reading a Fleming novel. And here's the thing, I think had Christoper Wood been actually allowed to turn in a Bond story of his own making, it would have been more faithful to the earlier Bond movies. He confesses in his own biography that he was a Bond traditionalist, preferring Dr No and FRWL and GF. He even mentions watching Dr No in the cinema back in 62 and being thrilled when the audience erupted into whoops and cheers when Connery uttered his immortal "Bond... James Bond" line across the chemin-de-fer table. I've only partly read Christoper Wood's biography but he says he read the seventh draft of TSWLM that already had Jaws and Anya Amasova included in the script. The big climax, he said, ended in a fjord in Norway. The PTS was his own inclusion, inspired by some advertising copy in a magazine that had their Bond-like hero waking up in a chalet, then being pursued by sinister assassins, to then escape by skiing off the edge of a cliff. No harm in that - as we all get our inspiration from somewhere. Wood even mentions how lowly writers were looked upon by producers in those days An example of is when Cubby poured him a coffee at a brainstorming meeting and the rest of the production crew balked: "That's a first... Cubby pouring a coffee for a writer!" or words to that effect. Wood, much like Richard Maibaum, knew that he was just a pen-for-hire and that if he wanted his name on the credits then he had to deliver what Cubby and the associates wanted, otherwise he'd just be another name added to the already long list of writers that didn't get a credit for TSWLM. I always wonder why Woods never got to write another Bond script after MR? Does anyone have the genuine answer to this?
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    As pointed out by others, Wood actually managed to blend some of the Fleming
    style in to TSWLM. His discription of Bond finding the murdered girl's Body and the
    only thing stopping him from killing the female russian agent sent to seduce him, was the look of horror on her face when she too saw the girls Bond.
    He somehow mixes the more outlandish elements very well with the more traditional literary Bond adventure.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondsum wrote: »
    Totally agree with you guys on Christoper Wood's novelizations. They're like reading a Fleming novel. And here's the thing, I think had Christoper Wood been actually allowed to turn in a Bond story of his own making, it would have been more faithful to the earlier Bond movies. He confesses in his own biography that he was a Bond traditionalist, preferring Dr No and FRWL and GF. He even mentions watching Dr No in the cinema back in 62 and being thrilled when the audience erupted into whoops and cheers when Connery uttered his immortal "Bond... James Bond" line across the chemin-de-fer table. I've only partly read Christoper Wood's biography but he says he read the seventh draft of TSWLM that already had Jaws and Anya Amasova included in the script. The big climax, he said, ended in a fjord in Norway. The PTS was his own inclusion, inspired by some advertising copy in a magazine that had their Bond-like hero waking up in a chalet, then being pursued by sinister assassins, to then escape by skiing off the edge of a cliff. No harm in that - as we all get our inspiration from somewhere. Wood even mentions how lowly writers were looked upon by producers in those days An example of is when Cubby poured him a coffee at a brainstorming meeting and the rest of the production crew balked: "That's a first... Cubby pouring a coffee for a writer!" or words to that effect. Wood, much like Richard Maibaum, knew that he was just a pen-for-hire and that if he wanted his name on the credits then he had to deliver what Cubby and the associates wanted, otherwise he'd just be another name added to the already long list of writers that didn't get a credit for TSWLM. I always wonder why Woods never got to write another Bond script after MR? Does anyone have the genuine answer to this?

    Does Wood claim he came up with it? I thought the received history of the sequence is that MGW saw this ad in a magazine:

    AAEAAQAAAAAAAAhyAAAAJGRhZmYyMjczLTM5ODItNDg3Yy1iNGZhLTFmYjY3ZWRjZThiMg.jpg

    and they asked if Sylvester would recreate it for TWSLM, something which Sylvester himself also backs up:

    http://moonshineink.com/news/how-greatest-bond-stunt-came-be

    In any event Wood's novelisations are better than most of the continuation novels. I can only assume that with FYEO coming back down to earth it was Wood who was deemed sacrificial lamb for the over the top epic nature of the previous two films and let go. But you're right his novelisations do display a better appreciation of Fleming's character than you might assume from the two films he wrote.

    I wonder how we'd react today though if EON hired a bloke whose previous scripts weree such dismal fare as Confessions of a Window Cleaner and Confessions of a Driving Instructor for the next B25?
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 3,333
    Yes, you're quite right @TheWizardOfIce. I must admit I skim-read that bit, but as you quite rightly pointed out, Wood says: "I came into the office one morning to find Cubby and Co. pouring over an advertisement" so yes, in all likelihood it could have been MGW that first spotted the potential of the advertisement. My bad. Thanks for including the original advertisement - I've never seen the source before now. I guess what I was trying to allude to was the fact that it was Woods' script that added this to TSWLM and it wasn't something that he had inherited from either Maibaum or Mankiewicz's screenplays.

    Though Woods does go on to say that the "Keeping the British end up" line wasn't his creation, along with some of the other funny quips in the movie. He gives that credit to Roger Moore himself.

    I believe the Confessions movies were based on his bestselling books to begin with, before they became low-budget smut movies. He admits that he made a big mistake selling the rights for only £2000 and the only reason the producers asked him to write the scripts was because he was cheaper than finding a proper screenplay artist. He goes on to say that his first stab at writing the screenplay for Confessions of a Window Cleaner he turned in an overlong script that had very few jokes in it. The story was whittled down and the saucy jokes added later. Having not read any of his earlier Confessions books (or any of them for that matter) I can't vouch for the original content and how they differ from the movies. I suppose the books were considered very risque at the time of their publication and were something akin to E.L James' Fifty Shades of Grey phenomena.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,582
    One thing for sure: Ian Fleming would have crapped his pants if he had seen this film. And, no, that isn't a good thing. LOL
  • Posts: 7,653
    TripAces wrote: »
    One thing for sure: Ian Fleming would have crapped his pants if he had seen this film. And, no, that isn't a good thing. LOL

    Glad he told you so, or is it an assumption on your part?

    Fleming was after all a bread writer and would ave laughed all the way to the bank, I guess but am not sure.
  • Did well in the box office by copying elements from Star Wars. Stuff the characters, plot and story, Moonraker made loads of money, I think thats why it was made in the first place.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Did well in the box office by copying elements from Star Wars. Stuff the characters, plot and story, Moonraker made loads of money, I think thats why it was made in the first place.

    It was a cash cow for sure,but that's about it.

  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    edited January 2018 Posts: 7,582
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I'm on the verge of saying that I like MR more than TSWLM. It's just as silly, but has better cinematography, better soundtrack. a better villain, far better dialogue, a slightly better Bond girl (not in terms of looks, but acting ability) and so on. It's a tie in regard of production design since Ken Adam was still around. But other than that, I find it's more re-watchable and considerably less dated than TSWLM, which I so far have been rating 1/10 higher than MR:

    I think that SPY has to be credited with being the film that stripped the rapidly tiring formula down, and rebuilds it to resemble a brand new glossy structure. It was incredibly exciting at the time.

    But I do kind of agree with this. MR does do so many things better, and for a good 45 minutes or so threatens to be up there with the best.

    The problem I guess is that as the jokes begin to wear thin they don't graciously retire they actually get more extreme and outlandish. The writing was on the wall during the bondola chase, and between that and the introduction of Dolly the film lost all credibility. Such a shame, because as @j_w_pepper says it's a better film in so many departments.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    It was the top grossing film at the box office globally in 1979. If I'm not mistaken, no other Bond film has achieved that result. SF came in second for 2012.

    Bloody good entertainment I say, and quite frankly that's all that matters to me. There are other films to view if one is a purist.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    I don't really understand why everyone points at the final part of the film when Bond finally goes into space. I mean it is outlandish and the laser battle is certainly a bit silly but I find it is here where the sets, the minature works and the score really shine. For me Moonraker really has its biggest weaknesses when Bond is in Venice and Brazil:

    Gondola + double taking pigeon
    Jaws falling in love
    the glorious 7
    the stupid ambulance scene
    Amazonas boat chase

    the PTS plus the first part in California is certainly the best part of the film but the space scenes are also OK. It is the boring and silly 2nd Act that prevents MR form being an above average Bond film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    @GBF I agree with you. I've never had any problems whatsoever with the space section of the film, except for the laser fight. I think the final part where Bond and Holly are trying to shoot down the globes is quite thrilling.

    I even don't mind the 2nd act because I really enjoy the iconic cable car sequence and the ambulance chase (I quite like the humour). I'm not a fan of the Amazon boat chase purely because of the silly gadgets and the poor back projection. I dislike the gondola also because of the gadgets. Even then, there are decent bits in Venice in my view. I really like the Chang fight and enjoy the interlude in Holly's hotel. Manuela and the festival are highlights of Rio.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 19,339
    I can tolerate the Amazon boat chase because 'The 007 Theme' is used for the last time in that scene.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I think you mean '007 theme' @barryt007 (so as not to confuse those newbies who may be unfamiliar with the reference). ;). I agree and would love to hear it again one day, hopefully once they recast and get back to a lighter touch, which it more readily suits.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    I think you mean '007 theme' @barryt007 (so as not to confuse those newbies who may be unfamiliar with the reference). ;). I agree and would love to hear it again one day, hopefully once they recast and get back to a lighter touch, which it more readily suits.

    Hahaha it just occurred to me,i was going to change it but you beat me to it, you young scallywag !!!

    It would be really great to hear it again,i agree,in a light scene as you say.

  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    @bondjames

    the ambulance scene alone is tolerable. However, I find how the film is put together in this part is just a bit sloppy, mainly due to lazy writing. It feels like: OK how do we now get rid of Holly Goodhead? Hmm, we probably need an extra scene in which she gets kidnapped. They just could have been more creative.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I agree @GBF. It is indeed sloppy in places as you note. I think it works for the most part due to the OTT elements (some suspension of disbelief is required) despite this. In a more 'grounded' film like SP sloppy writing is more noticeable and perhaps unforgivable.
  • edited January 2018 Posts: 11,189
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I can't argue with that at all @bondsum

    I suppose the biggest sin of MR is that it is a film that is seemingly aimed predominantly at schoolchildren. That goes against everything Bond stands for and I can understand why, from that perspective, older Bond fans really dislike it.

    At least other "family" orientated Bond films (like Goldfinger and Live and Let Die) had a rougher, more adult edge to them in places. Moonraker is a full-on cartoon in live action form.

    Tell Corinne Dufour that as she's being savaged. Or Bond as he's strapped in the centrifuge. Or the scientists as they choke to death.

    There's plenty of darkness in there and if they could have just trimmed a bit of the comedy excess fat there's every chance MR could be top 10 material. MR is basically like TSWLM that has been overindulging during the Christmas period and just needs to go for a few sessions down the gym to lose some of the flab.

    I don't entirely buy that there is "plenty of darkness" in MR.

    1. the centrifuge scene. Well made and well acted by Moore but it never goes beyond one scene. He's instantly smiling and seducing Corrine straight away.

    2. Corrine's death. Ok, a genuinely dark moment.

    3 Scientists choking. Even Roger in the audio commentary says they are "overacting wildly". Plus we don't know anything about them. They are just nameless scientists we quickly forget about.

    The film has the odd darker moment but they are easily outnumbered by all the silliness. It's a film you could certainly imagine also being made in cartoon form. From Russia with Love this aint.

    I agree with you on it being like an over-indulgent feast you would have at Christmas time. That's a comparison I've often thought of myself.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The bondola chase is very dark,though.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I can't argue with that at all @bondsum

    I suppose the biggest sin of MR is that it is a film that is seemingly aimed predominantly at schoolchildren. That goes against everything Bond stands for and I can understand why, from that perspective, older Bond fans really dislike it.

    At least other "family" orientated Bond films (like Goldfinger and Live and Let Die) had a rougher, more adult edge to them in places. Moonraker is a full-on cartoon in live action form.

    Tell Corinne Dufour that as she's being savaged. Or Bond as he's strapped in the centrifuge. Or the scientists as they choke to death.

    There's plenty of darkness in there and if they could have just trimmed a bit of the comedy excess fat there's every chance MR could be top 10 material. MR is basically like TSWLM that has been overindulging during the Christmas period and just needs to go for a few sessions down the gym to lose some of the flab.

    I don't entirely buy that there is "plenty of darkness" in MR.

    1. the centrifuge scene. Well made and well acted by Moore but it never goes beyond one scene. He's instantly smiling and seducing Corrine straight away.

    2. Corrine's death. Ok, a genuinely dark moment.

    3 Scientists choking. Even Roger in the audio commentary says they are "overacting wildly". Plus we don't know anything about them. They are just nameless scientists we quickly forget about.

    The film has the odd darker moment but they are easily outnumbered by all the silliness. It's a film you could certainly imagine also being made in cartoon form. From Russia with Love this aint.

    I agree with you on it being like an over-indulgent feast you would have at Christmas time. That's a comparison I've often thought of myself.

    Well true perhaps 'plenty' is overstating it but all you need to lose is the entire hovercraft scene and Jaws flapping and falling in love and you've got a standard 70s/80s/90s era Bond film and not the comic romp it's always painted as.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    To me, there‘s nothing to hate about MR - it‘s just a bit silly but Moore pulls it of perfectly to be honest.

    I feel way more, true hate against SP because it threw all the production values, great actors and performances and beautiful locations away by basing it upon a mostly crappy and lazy script.

    So for me THAT‘S hate - but MR stays true to it‘s tone perfectly and does not attempt to he any other movie than it is and so ... it may not be my favourite because if do prefer tonally different entries but again - it‘s a fine entry.
  • Posts: 11,189
    The bondola chase is very dark,though.

    Maybe for a few moments due to the whole hearse boat setup, but we soon get silly slapstick gags where boats with courting couples are split in two without the couple even noticing.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The bondola chase is very dark,though.

    Maybe for a few moments due to the whole hearse boat setup, but we soon get silly slapstick gags where boats with courting couples are split in two without the couple even noticing.

    Extremely dark.
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