NO TIME TO DIE - Questions Thread

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  • Posts: 5,997
    Oh, a GF (the book) reference ! Clever !
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Safin deliberately spares his life in order to hire him.

    Is that stated in the film?

    Not directly but during their first meeting Ash said to Primo "Sorry for your loss... we have opportunities for you". Primo was 100% loyal to Blofeld til the SPECTRE party. The film makes it perfectly clear.

    I don’t recall this exchange at all. Where is it in the film?
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    jake24 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Safin deliberately spares his life in order to hire him.

    Is that stated in the film?

    Not directly but during their first meeting Ash said to Primo "Sorry for your loss... we have opportunities for you". Primo was 100% loyal to Blofeld til the SPECTRE party. The film makes it perfectly clear.

    I don’t recall this exchange at all. Where is it in the film?

    When Q is going through the recordings on Blofeld’s eye and comes across Primo meeting Logan Ash at the cafe.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    edited October 2021 Posts: 10,591
    Minion wrote: »
    jake24 wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    matt_u wrote: »
    Safin deliberately spares his life in order to hire him.

    Is that stated in the film?

    Not directly but during their first meeting Ash said to Primo "Sorry for your loss... we have opportunities for you". Primo was 100% loyal to Blofeld til the SPECTRE party. The film makes it perfectly clear.

    I don’t recall this exchange at all. Where is it in the film?

    When Q is going through the recordings on Blofeld’s eye and comes across Primo meeting Logan Ash at the cafe.
    Ah, of course. Thanks

    Btw, could anyone make out what Safin says to Madeleine’s mother before shooting her? I was unable to make it out for all 3 times I’ve seen NTTD.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Safin says that her husband killed his family and then after White’s wife replies that his target wasn’t home he says “good, this is gonna hurt him even more” something like that.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's a bit of a leap: other Spectre guys survive too (who else are Bond and Paloma fighting?).
    As I said above, my take is that the nanobots are only targeted at high-ranking members (anyone wearing a ring). Primo and the other henchmen are just that - henchmen, so aren't affected.

    Safin just got Primo involved once Blofeld was dead because he probably knew he could use him to his advantage. I don't think it was planned for Primo to be recruited. If Primo's DNA was in the list of major SPECTRE agents, he would've died too, but he was just a henchman.

    Nope, Safin hired Primo through Ash before Blofeld’s death. Primo was not just an henchmen. He was SPECTRE N1 henchman, he was Blofeld’s eyes, in charge of stealing Heracles and finalizing Blofeld’s grand revenge plan. Ash meets him right after the massacre, so this suggests that he had already plans for him.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    Denbigh wrote: »
    JazzyBond wrote: »
    Okay in regards to the bionic eye I think I have it but I have one question. When Q taps into Blofeld’s bionic eye isn’t it from the point of view of Primo so wouldn’t that be Primo’s eye or am I just remembering wrong and it did indeed show Primo? If it’s from Primo’s eye POV then wouldn’t that be Primo’s eye that Q is hacking into and if so then Primo has more then one eye?
    Blofeld's eye is receiving, recording and saving footage live from Primo's eye, so Blofeld's eye just has access to everything Primo's eye is seeing. Primo just has the one eye and always has it throughout the film.

    It’s a bit confusing for the audience nevertheless, does Blofeld see everything Primo does? And this bit means he actually watched Primo betraying him, but we never get any impression that Blofeld reacted to that in any way.
    matt_u wrote: »
    Safin says that her husband killed his family and then after White’s wife replies that his target wasn’t home he says “good, this is gonna hurt him even more” something like that.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    It's a bit of a leap: other Spectre guys survive too (who else are Bond and Paloma fighting?).
    As I said above, my take is that the nanobots are only targeted at high-ranking members (anyone wearing a ring). Primo and the other henchmen are just that - henchmen, so aren't affected.

    Safin just got Primo involved once Blofeld was dead because he probably knew he could use him to his advantage. I don't think it was planned for Primo to be recruited. If Primo's DNA was in the list of major SPECTRE agents, he would've died too, but he was just a henchman.

    Nope, Safin hired Primo through Ash before Blofeld’s death. Primo was not just an henchmen. He was SPECTRE N1 henchman, he was Blofeld’s eyes, in charge of stealing Heracles and finalizing Blofeld’s grand revenge plan. Ash meets him right after the massacre, so this suggests that he had already plans for him.

    Are you not just filling in the gaps yourself though? For all we know Safin had hacked the eyeball feed, saw Primo was still moving and told Ash to go to him (he’s pretty easy to find if you’re watching his POV!).
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I don't see how not killing SPECTRE N1 henchman and Blofeld's right hand can be just a random coincidence, especially if you go hire him the next few days.
    Anyway, Safin hacked Primo's eyeball? I don't remember that. Q hacked Blofeld's eyeball and that's it as far as I remember.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    You don’t remember it because it wasn’t shown, just like Safin deciding to keep Primo alive wasn’t shown.
    I think if we’re asking what’s shown in the film let’s not add in stuff that wasn’t there.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    You don’t remember it because it wasn’t shown, just like Safin deciding to keep Primo alive wasn’t shown.
    I think if we’re asking what’s shown in the film let’s not add in stuff that wasn’t there.

    So what you just wrote - "For all we know Safin had hacked the eyeball feed" - is just a personal random assumption. We don't know that AT ALL. And if you ask me, it doesn't even make sense.
    Anyway I said that Primo being spared SUGGESTS Safin had plans for him. To me Safin is not someone who just hires Blofeld's right hand because hey he's alive. Safin knew exactly who was targeting and knew Primo would have not died.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    You don’t remember it because it wasn’t shown, just like Safin deciding to keep Primo alive wasn’t shown.
    I think if we’re asking what’s shown in the film let’s not add in stuff that wasn’t there.

    So what you just wrote - "For all we know Safin had hacked the eyeball feed" - is just a personal random assumption. We don't know that AT ALL. And if you ask me, it doesn't even make sense.

    Yes, I said “for all we know”. My point is that has just as much evidence in the film as the idea that Safin decided to spare Primo in order to recruit him.
    matt_u wrote: »
    Anyway I said that Primo being spared SUGGESTS Safin had plans for him. To me Safin is not someone who just hires Blofeld's right hand because hey he's alive. Safin knew exactly who was targeting and knew Primo would have not died.

    Well, you stated it as fact, that’s why I asked if it was in the film or not.
    Safin also allowed lots of other Spectre goons besides Primo to live, who all tried to kill Bond, so we can see his planning isn’t great.
    Perhaps it was less about who was targeted than it was whether you stood under the sprinklers or not: and Primo was watching from a distance.

    Was his plan to keep Bond alive to make sure MI6 didn’t get Valdo and he’d be delivered to Ash? That’s a risky plan.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    It was ALL about who was targeted as Q confirmed ALL SPECTRE members being targeted ended up dead. Primo was right behind the guy with Blofeld’s eye so he was in the middle of everything.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    I took him to be way off away watching from the back. Fukunaga’s sense of geography is not very clear.
    Quite a few Spectre members didn’t die, quite clearly. Unless they were just annoyed, heavily armed bar staff of course.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    I took him to be way off away watching from the back. Fukunaga’s sense of geography is not very clear.
    Quite a few Spectre members didn’t die, quite clearly. Unless they were just annoyed, heavily armed bar staff of course.

    The film states multiple times that ALL SPECTRE members died in Cuba. Gosh, M even says to Bond "Blofeld is the last SPECTRE's member that is still breathing".

    The ones that survived were henchmen, wives, bodyguards, escorts etc etc.

    Regarding the geography... we see Primo walking right in front of the guy with the eyeball and seconds later we even see Bond looking at Primo the moment he activate the sprinklers. Hardly Fukunaga's fault...
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    Gerard wrote: »
    Oh, a GF (the book) reference ! Clever !

    What's the reference, for those of us not as steadfast on the books? (And maybe post it into the easter eggs thread as well...)
    I get that Primo is trying to kill Bond during the Cuban scene and I'm assuming it's on Blofeld's orders but I honestly don't know. The reason I'm unsure is because Bond is actually being led into the trap by Logan and Obruchev who are both on Safin's side. Also, why isn't Obruchev worried that he's surrounded by Spectre agents if he was expecting Safin's men? Is Obruchev a double agent? Or trying to play both sides in order to survive? Once Primo realizes the DNA was switched why doesn't he kill Obruchev for double crossing him and his organisation?

    Does anyone remember whether the SPECTRE henchmen are going after Valdo or Bond in that sequence? It does seem a bit shortsighted if they don't come after him. Maybe only very few people knew who he is and maybe they didn't understand immediately that he manipulated the virus, but with an organization like SPECTRE you would still think they would kill him just for being involved in the whole mess.

    I still maintain that that whole sequence including the Jamaica prelude is great spy thriller stuff, where no-one really knows who is working for whom and why. Maybe my favourite realization watching the film a second time was that Valdo asking Paloma whether they are there to get him for Safin isn't just a throwaway joke (and I am just now realizing that he says something like "are you my escort?" and she may take it as an indecent proposition?!), he is actually right! They are there on Safin's orders, they just have no idea. That would have, by the way been a nice way of continuing the Safin character and his MO. In the first half of the film he is constantly using people as double agents and using people doing things for their own benefit to be for his benefit. He doesn't have any henchmen of his own basically until the Norway chase. Both times he needs to get Valdo out of something, he has someone else do the dirty work. Primo and Blofeld basically kill their own people for him. He gets Madeleine to get the virus to Blofeld. Arguably that extends to his final act of using Bond and Madeleine' love for each other against themselves in a very twisted way. It's a nice inversion of SPECTRE's "we have people everywhere". So does he. But they are your people and most of the time they have no idea, they are working for him. That isn't continued in the last third of the film and I would have loved it if they continued that thread a bit more, with maybe him playing Japan, the US and Russia against each other more to use their armies basically as his henchmen or something.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I took him to be way off away watching from the back. Fukunaga’s sense of geography is not very clear.
    Quite a few Spectre members didn’t die, quite clearly. Unless they were just annoyed, heavily armed bar staff of course.

    The film states multiple times that ALL SPECTRE members died in Cuba. Gosh, M even says to Bond "Blofeld is the last SPECTRE's member that is still breathing".

    The ones that survived were henchmen, wives, bodyguards, escorts etc etc.

    Like Primo, yes.
    matt_u wrote: »
    Regarding the geography... we see Primo walking right in front of the guy with the eyeball and seconds later we even see Bond looking at Primo the moment he activate the sprinklers. Hardly Fukunaga's fault...

    He's stood behind a column and behind the crowd, and Bond, as I recall.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    No, Primo was next to the three creepy guys walking around with the eye. He was on their right so basically in front of Bond. We see even Bond looking at Primo the moment he activates the sprinklers. So he wasn't watching from the distance etc etc.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Copied from the first reactions thread

    Was Safin intended to be revealed as Dr No?
    Last time I watched the film I noticed someone refers to him as Doctor and the dialogue between he and Bond seems to be heavily edited at points

    Could it be he was going to be revealed as Dr No and they cut it?
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    I don’t think they cut it. Safin has a lot in common with No but that’s it…
  • I was left confused by a number of things in the film, but the bionic eyeballs were never one of them.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I still maintain that that whole sequence including the Jamaica prelude is great spy thriller stuff, where no-one really knows who is working for whom and why. Maybe my favourite realization watching the film a second time was that Valdo asking Paloma whether they are there to get him for Safin isn't just a throwaway joke (and I am just now realizing that he says something like "are you my escort?" and she may take it as an indecent proposition?!), he is actually right! They are there on Safin's orders, they just have no idea. That would have, by the way been a nice way of continuing the Safin character and his MO. In the first half of the film he is constantly using people as double agents and using people doing things for their own benefit to be for his benefit. He doesn't have any henchmen of his own basically until the Norway chase. Both times he needs to get Valdo out of something, he has someone else do the dirty work. Primo and Blofeld basically kill their own people for him. He gets Madeleine to get the virus to Blofeld. Arguably that extends to his final act of using Bond and Madeleine' love for each other against themselves in a very twisted way. It's a nice inversion of SPECTRE's "we have people everywhere". So does he. But they are your people and most of the time they have no idea, they are working for him. That isn't continued in the last third of the film and I would have loved it if they continued that thread a bit more, with maybe him playing Japan, the US and Russia against each other more to use their armies basically as his henchmen or something.

    I agree, all this intrigue is terrific. The twists regarding who is doing what, and for whom, are enjoyable and logical, and not so twisty that they start to grate, which I felt to be case in the last Mission: Impossible film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    I was left confused by a number of things in the film, but the bionic eyeballs were never one of them.

    I honestly got a bit confused by all of the poisons and who they kill: Safin's red one was threatening but I felt I missed whether it targeted the Swanns or not- I only really understood when it had broken, and even then Safin seemed to be saying that he and Bond were in the same boat and couldn't meet anyone ever again, which seemed slightly contrary to what it seemed it did.
    And with all of these targeted toxins he just wanted to kill almost everyone anyway. If he had wanted to remove anyone even vaguely related to Spectre worldwide or just been a massive racist and wanted to remove specific races it would have made a bit more sense of the nature of the weapon.
  • About the bionic eye. Upon first viewing I just assumed Primo had multiple eyeballs. He lost one in the PTS, really don’t think he went around searching for it especially when we see him without the eyeball when he’s firing at the DB5. I also assumed the eyeball that Q hacked into was Primo’s from the party. I don’t think Blofeld ever had an eyeball removed. His eye just looked horrible due to the scarring from before in Spectre. I might be wrong but that was my take when I first saw it.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    I honestly got a bit confused by all of the poisons and who they kill: Safin's red one was threatening but I felt I missed whether it targeted the Swanns or not- I only really understood when it had broken, and even then Safin seemed to be saying that he and Bond were in the same boat and couldn't meet anyone ever again, which seemed slightly contrary to what it seemed it did.

    The red one was Safin's insurance. He reveals to Swann that he commissioned to Waldo one dose of Heracles with her DNA as the target. We can see him collecting one of Swann's hair in her office. This way he basically has total control of her life and Mathilde's. Then, when Bond is getting the upper hand, he gasses him but during the fight the little bottle breaks so he gets poisoned too. Everything is extremely simple and seamless.
    mtm wrote: »
    And with all of these targeted toxins he just wanted to kill almost everyone anyway. If he had wanted to remove anyone even vaguely related to Spectre worldwide or just been a massive racist and wanted to remove specific races it would have made a bit more sense of the nature of the weapon.

    Safin believes to be some kind of God. He provides a weapon but it's up to someone else (the buyers) to decide who's gonna be killed. Just like God gives life but then it's up to each being to decide what to do with this gift. In the end he just want to live inside his lair on his family's island with Madeleine while the world dies. He believes people just want oblivion and free will is just a lie. His heritage will be a less populated world, if not an inhabited one.
  • mtm wrote: »
    I was left confused by a number of things in the film, but the bionic eyeballs were never one of them.

    I honestly got a bit confused by all of the poisons and who they kill: Safin's red one was threatening but I felt I missed whether it targeted the Swanns or not- I only really understood when it had broken, and even then Safin seemed to be saying that he and Bond were in the same boat and couldn't meet anyone ever again, which seemed slightly contrary to what it seemed it did.
    And with all of these targeted toxins he just wanted to kill almost everyone anyway. If he had wanted to remove anyone even vaguely related to Spectre worldwide or just been a massive racist and wanted to remove specific races it would have made a bit more sense of the nature of the weapon.

    Yeah how the nanomachines function and what/why Safin wanted to use them for were the biggest head scratchers. I kept forgetting that the machines had to be loaded with a specific DNA profile beforehand because I kept going “Bond already has those things in his body! Why is he only now worried??”. I guess that’s more on me, but for all the exposition those things got it still felt poorly explained. I was also confused about their relation to the poison garden and the toxic plant farm in Safin’s base. Were they manufacturing more nanomachines in the water? Are the nanomachines simply a vehicle to deposit the toxin from the plant (this is my preferred reading I think)? Or was he simply developing other weapons there too?

    Yeah, the film needed to clarify who he wanted to use the weapons on as well. Since thinking back on it I think I more or less get Safin’s motives: he’s a creep with a god complex obsessed with controlling life and death. In the PTS he kills Madeline’s mother but saves Madeline. In his poison garden he controls what grows and he uses them to kill or control others. And he tells Bond that people want to be told what to do, and seems to have a perverted sense of justice as well, so I imagine he wants to control people out of fear (like he does Madeline) while he takes out various “problematic” elements of the population as he sees fit, like he did with Spectre. But who specifically he wants to kill, and how this really relates to his family backstory is left too vague. It would be much more narratively tidy if there were some specific connection between his family’s goals and what he is doing beyond just making poison.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I honestly got a bit confused by all of the poisons and who they kill: Safin's red one was threatening but I felt I missed whether it targeted the Swanns or not- I only really understood when it had broken, and even then Safin seemed to be saying that he and Bond were in the same boat and couldn't meet anyone ever again, which seemed slightly contrary to what it seemed it did.

    The red one was Safin's insurance. He reveals to Swann that he commissioned to Waldo one dose of Heracles with her DNA as the target. We can see him collecting one of Swann's hair in her office. This way he basically has total control of her life and Mathilde's. Then, when Bond is getting the upper hand, he gasses him but during the fight the little bottle breaks so he gets poisoned too. Everything is extremely simple and seamless.

    Yes it's just Safin's reaction didn't quite make sense after it had broken to me. He seemed to act like neither of them could leave or see anyone again.
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    And with all of these targeted toxins he just wanted to kill almost everyone anyway. If he had wanted to remove anyone even vaguely related to Spectre worldwide or just been a massive racist and wanted to remove specific races it would have made a bit more sense of the nature of the weapon.

    Safin believes to be some kind of God. He provides a weapon but it's up to others to decide which one is gonna be killed (the buyers). Just like God gives life but then it's up to each being to decide what to do with this gift. In the end he just want to live inside his lair on his family's island with Madeleine while the world dies.

    Indeed, but muddled by the film showing us his plans (not his buyers') to kill millions of people in the lab, and the DNA data leak which comes from Valdo's (working for Safin) drive.
    The film's storytelling is murky at a number of places.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited October 2021 Posts: 4,343
    But who specifically he wants to kill, and how this really relates to his family backstory is left too vague. It would be much more narratively tidy if there were some specific connection between his family’s goals and what he is doing beyond just making poison.

    After exterminating SPECTRE, Safin doesn't want to kill anyone specifically. That's the point.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    The film's storytelling is murky at a number of places.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes it's just Safin's reaction didn't quite make sense after it had broken to me. He seemed to act like neither of them could leave or see anyone again.

    His reaction made perfect sense since after their fight they both won't be able to touch Madeleine ever again. They're both doomed.
    mtm wrote: »
    Indeed, but muddled by the film showing us his plans (not his buyers') to kill millions of people in the lab, and the DNA data leak which comes from Valdo's (working for Safin) drive.
    The film's storytelling is murky at a number of places.

    Those projections were either commissioned by the buyers or prepared by Safin to show the power of Heracles to the buyers.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2021 Posts: 16,428
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes it's just Safin's reaction didn't quite make sense after it had broken to me. He seemed to act like neither of them could leave or see anyone again.

    His reaction made perfect sense since after their fight they both won't be able to touch Madeleine ever again. They're both doomed.

    It only makes perfect sense if you think he cares as much as Bond, but we've seen him not give a toss whether Mathilde stays with him or not. Muddled storytelling again.
    matt_u wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Indeed, but muddled by the film showing us his plans (not his buyers') to kill millions of people in the lab, and the DNA data leak which comes from Valdo's (working for Safin) drive.
    The film's storytelling is murky at a number of places.

    Those projections were either commissioned by the buyers or prepared by Safin to show the power of Heracles to the buyers.

    You're filling those details in again; I don't recall that ever being said. Nomi literally says "He'll kill millions" - it's clear that the audience is supposed to infer that it's his plan. And yet a few minutes later it isn't.

    I think it's a good film but there are flaws in how it's put together.
  • I guess it’s just unusual for a villain to go from such an active, targeted, and motivated goal to a very passive one. I feel Bond villain’s tend to benefit from simplicity and specificity in their goals and schemes. That being said I liked Safin more than I expected, he’s quite creepy and an awesome lair never hurts (loved his trap door). Shame they didn’t use his mask again, it would have been neat if his final showdown was like a slasher version of Man With the Golden Gun with him stalking and ambushing Bond around the lair with his mask on.
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