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Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    TND is peak 007.

    THANK YOU!!
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    TND is peak 007.

    THANK YOU!!

    Don't thank me. Thank Roger Spottiswoode and the fine crew that put this beaut together.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,036
    Wow… here I thought NTTD was the most polarizing Bond film, but looks like it might be TND 🤣
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,235
    You guys are flashing bad movies like DIE ANOTHER DAY and BATMAN AND ROBIN as if you were the executives in AMERICAN PSYCHO showing off calling cards to one up each other.

    Well, let me one up all y’all.

    I watched SHOWGIRLS last night and aside from the rape scene it’s probably one of THE most hysterical movies I’ve ever seen. I highly recommend watching that with friends and plenty of alcohol. The dialogue will have you howling.

  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    You guys are flashing bad movies like DIE ANOTHER DAY and BATMAN AND ROBIN as if you were the executives in AMERICAN PSYCHO showing off calling cards to one up each other.

    Well, let me one up all y’all.

    I watched SHOWGIRLS last night and aside from the rape scene it’s probably one of THE most hysterical movies I’ve ever seen. I highly recommend watching that with friends and plenty of alcohol. The dialogue will have you howling.


    The first time I saw this I was absolutely shitfaced. I haven't seen it fully all the way through since then, so in my mind it's absolutely sublime.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,362
    @MakeshiftPython, I got a recommendation for you. Check out Tough Guys Don't Dance. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,235
    I’ve seen that clip years ago and I feel like I should never watch the whole movie because it will never truly live up to that clip. Just leave it to my imagination.

    Same thing with TAFFIN. In my mind it’s just that 20 second clip. I’ve seen it all, thank you very much. :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’ve seen that clip years ago and I feel like I should never watch the whole movie because it will never truly live up to that clip. Just leave it to my imagination.

    Same thing with TAFFIN. In my mind it’s just that 20 second clip. I’ve seen it all, thank you very much. :))

    Taffin was pretty good. Like 4th Protocol. Or Live Wire. Brosnan working his way up to Bond.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    Murdock wrote: »
    Check out Tough Guys Don't Dance. ;)

    Another film on my endless watchlist. Looks to be right up my alley.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’ve seen that clip years ago and I feel like I should never watch the whole movie because it will never truly live up to that clip. Just leave it to my imagination.

    Same thing with TAFFIN. In my mind it’s just that 20 second clip. I’ve seen it all, thank you very much. :))

    Taffin was pretty good.

    I love Pierce as much as anyone but absolutely not. :))
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    Murdock wrote: »

    0:33 - me out loud in the middle of the theater during the climax of NTTD
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »

    0:33 - me out loud in the middle of the theater during the climax of NTTD

    =)) =)) =))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’ve seen that clip years ago and I feel like I should never watch the whole movie because it will never truly live up to that clip. Just leave it to my imagination.

    Same thing with TAFFIN. In my mind it’s just that 20 second clip. I’ve seen it all, thank you very much. :))

    Taffin was pretty good.

    I love Pierce as much as anyone but absolutely not. :))

    He was nuts in this.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited November 2021 Posts: 16,362
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    I’ve seen that clip years ago and I feel like I should never watch the whole movie because it will never truly live up to that clip. Just leave it to my imagination.

    Same thing with TAFFIN. In my mind it’s just that 20 second clip. I’ve seen it all, thank you very much. :))

    @MakeshiftPython, take it from me. There are much funnier scenes in that movie. It's bonkers. Well worth a watch. :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Been too long since I saw Taffin. Just ordered the blu ray.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,236
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Been too long since I saw Taffin. Just ordered the blu ray.

    You are truly a warrior, @chrisisall :))

    I produced a short film with Gerard McSorley about five years back - he plays Brosnan's partner in crime fighting in the flick. I asked him what memories he had of making the film, and he said "Absolutely none. I was pissed the entire time."
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Been years since I watched taffin!!

    As for TND, I really enjoy it. I feel like it's just a good 'switch your brain off' romp. Sometimes that's all I'm in the mood for. It was the first Bond movie I caught in the cinema. I was perhaps a touch too young for goldeneye but saw it on vhs. I have fond memories of TND anyway.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,396
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.

    The plot of TWINE is more ambitious than TND, which is why I rank it higher.

    You bring up an interesting point, ending the film with Elektra's death. I wish they had had the courage to see the main female villain idea all the way through.

    Perhaps if Renard had died a bit earlier, at Elektra's hand...and then Bond had to kill Elektra (because she was going to kill M?). You could even have an ending with Christmas Jones where Bond finds solace in her arms, despite having loved (?) and killed Elektra.

    But you'd need a better actress than Richards for that.
  • BeatlesSansEarmuffsBeatlesSansEarmuffs
    Posts: 3,566
    echo wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.

    But you'd need a better actress than Richards for that.

    There is no better actress than Richards. (Not by the standards of Tough Guys Don't Dance, anyway.)
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains.This is a guy who just LOVES what he’s doing and eats up all the scenery.Even when one of his lackeys advises him against bringing the captured Wai Lin up the bridge of his stealth boat,he can’t resist because he loves having an audience!
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,058
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains.This is a guy who just LOVES what he’s doing and eats up all the scenery.Even when one of his lackeys advises him against bringing the captured Wai Lin up the bridge of his stealth boat,he can’t resist because he loves having an audience!
    One of my favorites.

    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »

    0:33 - me out loud in the middle of the theater during the climax of NTTD

    0:33 - @Some_Kind_Of_Hero in his third viewing of the climax of NTTD.

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,235
    That was me when Judi Dench told Bond to “pump her for more information”.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited November 2021 Posts: 14,003
    TND defense squad checking in.

    What went wrong? Erm.... nothing. I saw TND on the big screen back in 1997, at the time of release, I would have been 11. I enjoyed the film then, and at 35, I still enjoy it today. It might have more action that the average Bond, but I like action movies.... to a point.
  • Some_Kind_Of_HeroSome_Kind_Of_Hero
    Posts: 6,844
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Some_Kind_Of_Hero wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »

    0:33 - me out loud in the middle of the theater during the climax of NTTD

    0:33 - @Some_Kind_Of_Hero in his third viewing of the climax of NTTD.


    LOL!

    It had kind of lost its luster by then, but I still couldn't believe it.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,927
    Does anybody else ever wonder, particularly those who don't like TND in its present form, what it may have been like had they gone with the original idea of creating the story based around the idea of
    echo wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.

    The plot of TWINE is more ambitious than TND, which is why I rank it higher.

    You bring up an interesting point, ending the film with Elektra's death. I wish they had had the courage to see the main female villain idea all the way through.

    Perhaps if Renard had died a bit earlier, at Elektra's hand...and then Bond had to kill Elektra (because she was going to kill M?). You could even have an ending with Christmas Jones where Bond finds solace in her arms, despite having loved (?) and killed Elektra.

    But you'd need a better actress than Richards for that.

    But just because its ambitious doesn't mean it met its aim and you sort of answered that. The film sets them up and foregoes them for typical Bond tropes and action in unsatisfying ways.

    On the opposite side, TND doesn't try for more than to be an entertaining Bond averts WWIII scenario with big stunts and action and hits those marks quite well and provides a much bigger sense of fun. TWINE featured very little in the way of fun or memorable action.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Does anybody else ever wonder, particularly those who don't like TND in its present form, what it may have been like had they gone with the original idea of creating the story based around the idea of
    echo wrote: »
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Yeah Christopher Lee being so good just makes me angry to be honest. A deadly cat and mouse between Bond and the world’s greatest assassin. They took that premise and that actor and wasted both on possibly the most half arsed film of the series. Say what you will about DAD, but at least they were genuinely trying. Almost everything about TMWTGG is just lazy imo. Even the Barry score is weaker than his other efforts.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    And if I had to pick one Bond movie to be forever removed from my sight, never to see be again, it would be TND

    In a series with a number of ill-conceived misfires, that's quite something.

    Quite right.

    TWINE would be mine. In fact I haven’t seen it in full since probably 2012 when I did my countdown to SF.

    I actually didn't like TWINE when it came out, but then I read all the novels & I appreciated what they were attempting there. Now I quite enjoy it, even if I objectively see it as a guilty pleasure (sort-of) misfire.

    I’ve always loved TWINE. It’s a bit rough around the edges in parts, but I think it has one of the best plots of the series, quite possibly the best PTS, I like the theme song, I think Arnold started to come into his own (controversial maybe because of the techno elements but I’ll take it over TND’s Barry pastiche), Elektra is one of my favourite villains, Renard makes a great tortured lackey, and I thought Brosnan was at his best. I know he gets criticism for overacting in that one. But I’ve always liked how colourful his performances were (Goldeneye is his weakest performance for me, because he just seems nervous in comparison), and I liked the broody and passionate side of his Bond, so I enjoyed seeing that explored more in this film. And the bankers office escape, the bit where he pins a henchman to the bar with his own knife and then finishes his martini, and the bit where he kills Elektra are worth a thousand pain faces imo.

    It’s rough around the edges in parts. But I’ve always enjoyed it despite that because of the originality of it, and I’ve never really thought its commitment to the old formula undermined that originality as most seem to (I do wish it had ended with Elektra’s death, but I don’t mind the gadgets or Christmas). It’s like a proto-Craig film in some ways. And while it isn’t as good as Craig’s best, I think you’ve got to give it credit for getting there first.

    The plot of TWINE is more ambitious than TND, which is why I rank it higher.

    You bring up an interesting point, ending the film with Elektra's death. I wish they had had the courage to see the main female villain idea all the way through.

    Perhaps if Renard had died a bit earlier, at Elektra's hand...and then Bond had to kill Elektra (because she was going to kill M?). You could even have an ending with Christmas Jones where Bond finds solace in her arms, despite having loved (?) and killed Elektra.

    But you'd need a better actress than Richards for that.

    But just because its ambitious doesn't mean it met its aim and you sort of answered that. The film sets them up and foregoes them for typical Bond tropes and action in unsatisfying ways.

    On the opposite side, TND doesn't try for more than to be an entertaining Bond averts WWIII scenario with big stunts and action and hits those marks quite well and provides a much bigger sense of fun. TWINE featured very little in the way of fun or memorable action.

    I disagree.As much as I enjoy TND, it IS a little too action heavy,even for a Bond film.TWINE had a better balance of story and action.Also,most of the action in TWINE is superb! The PTS boat chase,the ski chase,mineshaft fight,the pipeline sequence,the dockyards battle.I know the submarine climax doesn’t work for some but I liked it.All of this is helped along by David Arnold’s terrific score which is even better than his work on TND.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    I like both TND AND TWINE. Just TND a bit more...
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,362
    I remember in 2000 I got the VHS tapes for TWINE and TND and watched them back to back to see which one I loved more. I'm still undecided on that front.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,835
    Murdock wrote: »
    I remember in 2000 I got the VHS tapes for TWINE and TND and watched them back to back to see which one I loved more. I'm still undecided on that front.

    If you're not decided by now, you never will be. Be content that you like them both equally. \m/
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited December 2021 Posts: 1,036
    TWINE is that Bond film I keep thinking I’m finally going to “click” with, then I either end up losing interest or fall asleep. This has happened 4-5x now. TND sits strongly in my mid-tier. It’s just a more enjoyable viewing.
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