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Anyone who knows combat fighting will cite Craig as the more proficient and realistic fighter vs Brozz …
…. And audiences who don’t know any better will go for raw realistic tension than whatever the Brozz offered.
Dalton was as good as a fighter as Brozz, but better coz he sold it (minus the bar fight in LTK);
That wasn’t fighting— that was pantomime
Interesting I never thought of Combat Fighting as what people always looked for in Bond films...No one here has ever doubted Craig’s abilities during the fight scenes, they just merely pointed out how choreographed some of those fights look, which I can’t say I disagree with, Casino Royale had the best fights of the entire Craig era, they don’t feel as hard hitting after that. What I don’t understand is the point your trying to make by dismissing Brosnan because of his supposed “inability” to make fight scenes look realistic, that just comes across as being biased towards the man. As mentioned earlier, actors are not fighters. I’m sure Daniel Craig isn’t the worlds greatest fighter either.
This is all well and good but it's not actually an answer to the question I asked. Someone "selling it" is a matter of intepretation, not fact. Not all combat fighting is the same. It wouldn't be much use to any combatants if it were.
:P ;)
I love how he punches that one guy at the factory over and over again and nothing happens.
And how, in the sound booth fight, you can see Bond in the background grabbing a cello to hit the guy with. The music enhances the comedic feel of the scene.
It's actually more of just expecting a decent answer to a straightforward question instead of the usual "he wasn't any good at this", really.
:P ;)
There's some great shots during those fights. Very classic old school Bond. Love it!
I love that scene too! Then he smashes the guard calling for Stamper with some ice blocks before shutting down the party. That was the icing on the cake.
To be fair, this is a Brosnan related thread. I’m sure the same reactions would be coming out of the woodworks if someone criticized Dalton or Craig on a thread dedicated to them
I can’t even… I love you @CraigMooreOHMSS… but… I’m just not understanding your perspective..
Likewise, @peter. Nothing but respect, always.
I'll rephrase the earlier question for clarity: what makes Brosnan objectively bad at the physical side of things? What makes all the people versed in combat worldwide so confident that he is awful at it? What is he doing wrong in the GE fight that makes it unworthy of its acclaim?
They're all very big statements. My regular collaborator on sets in terms of fight choreography, Jay (admittedly he's more of a swords and sandals type, working on Vikings and its spin-off currently - but he knows how to fight), was pretty complimentary of the GE fight and Brosnan's performance in it during a conversation we had once upon a time. Likewise, Craig's fights in CR and QoS.
Count me in as a Brosnan defender! He's my hero.
You work as a fight choreographer?!?! Now I’m interested in hearing your take on the FRWL train fight, because that’s my absolute favorite action scene of the entire series
The acclaim of the fight choreography in GE is never in doubt @CraigMooreOHMSS … nor is the believability of Bean… who sold this final fight scene from GE.
Brosnan was always a “performer “, with “pain face”… Bean fires punches. Brosnan acts “punching” (as in one looks real, one doesn’t)
After the Bean fight, Brosnan was never believable in unarmed combat again— he was never believable to do so…
🤷♂️
Not myself, no @007ClassicBondFan. I write and direct, mainly indie shorts thus far. I'm a nobody really. But a lot of my circle have worked on bigger budget stuff. Jay Cosgrave would be the guy I'd collaborate with. He was also a stunt performer on The Rhythm Section for EON. He choreographed a scene for me a couple of years back featuring a brawl in an underpass between a drug dealer and a guy whose brother overdosed on the dealer's product. It's exhaustive work putting those scenes together, but they're always good fun.
That being said, the FRWL train fight is excellent. ;)
Writing and Directing Indie films makes you much more than a nobody friend! Makes you a filmmaker in one way or another! As for your friend, I haven’t seen the Rhythm Section, but how was his experience working with EON?
I agree, that’s awesome that you’re a filmmaker. Make a Bond film for fun!
@CraigMooreOHMSS , my friend and collaborater, Mic Rodgers (stunt player, second unit director, stunt coordinator and Academy Award winner for the Mic Rig), who actually worked with Daniel Craig has cited him as being by far the most realistic and physical Bond performer. This proves nothing , of course, other than when I see Brosnan fight, I don't buy it and never did. The GE fight was his best choreographed fisticuffs, but Bean's physical dominance sold that more than Brosnan... And Brosnan's physical work in the series went down hill from here (for me-- and yes, I could never stand the sword fight in DAD as it looked like two spoilt children having a spat in a sandbox).
I'll give Brosnan this: not a bad runner.
I don't think Brosnan ever have gotten the Craig training in his prime.
Okay, so you agree that it's not a case of "ask anyone who knows what they're doing and they'll tell you Brosnan didn't" but more "I never liked Brosnan and the people I know who worked with Craig like him better too for this sort of stuff too". They're not quite the same thing; and it's not exactly news that Craig was a more brutal physical presence than any of the actors that came before him. I think we're going to continue going around in circles here because instead of saying why Brosnan isn't a good fighter all that's being said here is that he "didn't sell it", which is not really much to work with.
He didn't have a bad word to say about them, really. The shoot itself was messy on account of Lively's injury, which threw the entire thing off schedule, but sometimes that happens. It sounded like it was a good experience, overall.
TND is of course where David Arnold began a fantastic five film run of terrific Bond scores.I love the soundtrack to this film and play it constantly.I just so wish that the producers had brought him on a few years earlier for GE.
I agree we’re going around in circles, @CraigMooreOHMSS but anecdotally (that’s all we can go by), I've heard more criticism about Brosnan’s pain face and lack of physical believability/fight sequences than I’ve heard praise (outside of the fans on this site). This criticism comes from professional stunt coordinators and general film fans in my circle.
This has nothing to do with liking or not liking the actor (and I’ve admitted enjoying Brosnan the least), and has everything to do with I didn’t buy him as a fighter. I DID buy Bean’s physical performance in that climactic fight in GE far more than Brosnan.
And after that wonderfully choreographed sequence, Brosnan’s physical work/fighting left a lot to be desired, for me. And I stand by the idea: he can’t throw a proper punch (not a film-punch, nor an IRL punch), but that’s just me.
This got me thinking. How should Bond fight? I’m feeling a bit torn now that I think about it. On the one hand, while I love martial arts films, that sort of choreography doesn’t seem very Bond to me. But then it is fantasy at the end of the day, and would fight scenes like The Raid (a good balance imo, incredibly choreographed, but grounded and brutal enough to still feel vaguely “realistic”) really be too much for the world of gadget filled cars and extravagent secret bases? I’m not sure.
But I guess even if you put aside believeability, Bond will probably always be played by an actor, rather than a martial artist. Although I do think a more action focused Bond could be an interesting and different approach. Fury Road a few years ago was just as thematically rich as any Craig film, but they told that story almost entirely through action. Bond trying that approach with an Andrew Koji, Scott Adkins type could be an interesting change of pace imo, after a wordy few films. You’d need a really good writer and director though, who could keep Bond’s sense of style and really make what dialogue there is sparkle, otherwise it could just feel like any other action movie. It’d be a very difficult approach to nail.