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Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    If anyone here wants realism in fight scenes, don't look to Bond or Bourne movies. The closest thing to reality in a fight scene (to me) can be found in the 1979 Jan-Michel Vincent movie Defiance. The climactic fight was brutal, bloody & sloppy. Not one moment of coolness, just a lot of not-pretty stuff.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    Most Bond movies are escapist fun and a lot of the fights reflect that.Particularly the Moore ones.I think Bonds fight with Shandor on the roof in TSWLM is fun to watch.It’s not particularly believable and Rog moves a bit slow but that’s part of the charm.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If anyone here wants realism in fight scenes, don't look to Bond or Bourne movies. The closest thing to reality in a fight scene (to me) can be found in the 1979 Jan-Michel Vincent movie Defiance. The climactic fight was brutal, bloody & sloppy. Not one moment of coolness, just a lot of not-pretty stuff.

    So, of course, I had to check out that fight scene in Defiance. Phew! I think even I got hurt, and I was just watching it. Music was great too.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited November 2021 Posts: 17,804
    mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If anyone here wants realism in fight scenes, don't look to Bond or Bourne movies. The closest thing to reality in a fight scene (to me) can be found in the 1979 Jan-Michel Vincent movie Defiance. The climactic fight was brutal, bloody & sloppy. Not one moment of coolness, just a lot of not-pretty stuff.

    So, of course, I had to check out that fight scene in Defiance. Phew! I think even I got hurt, and I was just watching it. Music was great too.

    The whole movie is pretty good, but the absence of guns dates it something fierce. And I really appreciate how they are both too tired to stand up after...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    mattjoes wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If anyone here wants realism in fight scenes, don't look to Bond or Bourne movies. The closest thing to reality in a fight scene (to me) can be found in the 1979 Jan-Michel Vincent movie Defiance. The climactic fight was brutal, bloody & sloppy. Not one moment of coolness, just a lot of not-pretty stuff.

    So, of course, I had to check out that fight scene in Defiance. Phew! I think even I got hurt, and I was just watching it. Music was great too.

    Yes, I was compelled also. Looks great. A lot of grappling going on!
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    That is very bad. I always get a great chuckle out of it, though - the music certainly helps with that.

    I know the Sandor moment previously has earned its status as a fan-favourite thanks to the quip, but the fight building up to that moment wasn't great either.
  • 007ClassicBondFan007ClassicBondFan
    Posts: 2,270
    Cloak and Dagger from 1946 had a pretty interesting fight scene in it between Gary Cooper and (a pre Diamonds) Marc Lawerence
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Brosnan might not have gone as far as to live 24/7 in his local gym, but I think he did ok in his fights. I don't recall any moments where he was "bad" in the fights.


    Yes, you did read this correctly. I, who once (long ago) called Brosnan 'Mannequin Man', did just defend Pierce Brosnan.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    Brosnan might not have gone as far as to live 24/7 in his local gym, but I think he did ok in his fights. I don't recall any moments where he was "bad" in the fights.


    Yes, you did read this correctly. I, who once (long ago) called Brosnan 'Mannequin Man', did just defend Pierce Brosnan.

    :-O mega fist-bump, dude!!!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    This is becoming a habit, Major!
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    Brosnan might not have gone as far as to live 24/7 in his local gym, but I think he did ok in his fights. I don't recall any moments where he was "bad" in the fights.


    Yes, you did read this correctly. I, who once (long ago) called Brosnan 'Mannequin Man', did just defend Pierce Brosnan.

    :-O mega fist-bump, dude!!!

    *returns fist bump*
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    This is becoming a habit, Major!

    I suspect someone is secretly conducting conversion therapy on me.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    I never noticed anything wrong there but then I don’t obsessively nitpick screen fights.

  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,078
    One lovely bit they definitely got right in TND, is where Bond is baiting Carver, saying he'd be 'lost at sea. . . adrift'. This is straight out of the Thunderball novel where Bond talks about 'the spectre of defeat' to Largo.
    Then not long after there's Bond skulling vodka on his own. Plenty of good moments in TND for me!
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @thelivingroyale … I actually like that brief skirmish; it was perfectly lit and edited and it made Brosnan look fast and dangerous.
    It was the climactic fight where I found Bean was believable, vicious, cunning and the combinations looked “real” as if he was playing a game of chess with his fists, whereas my heart sunk watching Brosnan appear as if he was remembering his dance instructions….
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    peter wrote: »
    my heart sunk watching Brosnan appear as if he was remembering his dance instructions….
    Maybe we could do a fan hyper-edit to make it appear like a Craig fight scene, eh?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited November 2021 Posts: 7,021
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    I suspect someone is secretly conducting conversion therapy on me.

    What? No, no such thing. I think it's just that you're in a good mood because Christmas is coming. I mean, we are in NOVEMBER, MAN.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    mattjoes wrote: »
    MajorDSmythe wrote: »
    I suspect someone is secretly conducting conversion therapy on me.

    What? No, no such thing. I think it's just that you're in a good mood because Christmas is coming. I mean, we are in NOVEMBER, MAN.

    Thanks for the biggest LOL moment in weeks. Well done. B-)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited November 2021 Posts: 8,188
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    The worst fight was at the pyramids. One of the goons literally taps Moore in the back to cue Moore to do his slow spin kick at 27 seconds. It’s hilariously bad.


    I never noticed anything wrong there but then I don’t obsessively nitpick screen fights.

    Could be worse. I could be obsessing over Brie Larson on YouTube for three years
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    chrisisall wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    my heart sunk watching Brosnan appear as if he was remembering his dance instructions….
    Maybe we could do a fan hyper-edit to make it appear like a Craig fight scene, eh?

    @chrisisall : I answered a question. That's all. Yes, I'm a fan of Craig, because of Craig, not because I want other actors playing Bond to be like Craig, or for fight sequences to look like Craig's fight sequences.
    I'm not on here trying to create an echo chamber. I just think Brosnan sucks as a fighter. I always have Before Craig (BC), and I will always think this. I also believe Vic Armstrong did no favours for the series either, if I'm to be honest.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    peter wrote: »
    I'm not on here trying to create an echo chamber. I just think Brosnan sucks as a fighter. I always have Before Craig (BC), and I will always think this. I also believe Vic Armstrong did no favours for the series either, if I'm to be honest.
    Would you have had Yuen Woo-Ping train & instruct Brosnan how to fight convincingly then? Was Vic just too conventionally unconventional for you?
    Know what? In The Man With The Golden Gun during the kung fu craze when I was taking my first martial arts classes, I didn't hate on the fight scenes. They were for fun. Enter The Dragon & Fists Of Fury (Chinese Connection back then) were for us fight nuts.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited November 2021 Posts: 16,351
    The only thing wrong with TND is that Stamper didn't rough up Bond during the party scene. Bond being beat up by four overweight grandads instead of Stamper was a big missed opportunity in my book, but I still love TND to this day.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @chrisisall I quite honestly don't think anything could have improved Brosnan as a fighter. I don't think he was up to it, physically (on a separate but related note: watching him dance with Rene Russo made me convinced he's just not body aware and lacks in innate athletic ability-- I felt embarrassed watching that scene in TTCA). Pardon my stupidity, but I'm genuinely unclear what you're saying about Armstrong?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Murdock wrote: »
    The only thing wrong with TND is that Stamper didn't rough up Bond during the party scene. Bond being beat up by four overweight grandads instead of Stamper was a big missed opportunity in my book but I still love TND to this day.
    Hey man, LTNS! Those grandads were mean. ;)

  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Good to see you too @chrisisall! :)>-

    They were mean yes, but having it be Stamper would set up their fight on the stealth boat to be more of a rematch.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    Murdock wrote: »
    Good to see you too @chrisisall! :)>-

    They were mean yes, but having it be Stamper would set up their fight on the stealth boat to be more of a rematch.

    Yeah, but I felt they set that antagonism up well when Stamper was gloating about torturing Bond ... besides, I'm not sure Bond would have be a toe-to-toe match with him without extreme circumstances... god I love this movie!
  • AceHoleAceHole Belgium, via Britain
    Posts: 1,731
    Too much machine-gun-based action. Vic Armstrong liked himself a big Uzi & Heckler&Koch shootout, but it just doesn't work for Bond...
  • StamperStamper
    Posts: 387
    If you watch the film closely, I Stamper, when I'm stabbed in the end, don't show any pain.

    That puny vermin Victor "Renard" Zokas stole my invicibility in WINE, but I would have crushed him like an insect if we faced together, by just looking at him and his sorry face.
  • M16_CartM16_Cart Craig fanboy?
    edited November 2021 Posts: 541
    I don't think Brosnan's fighting is even in the top 10 things I would change about this film.

    While it could be better, it's not like this film goes from a 5-6 out of 10 to an 8 just because of better fighting.
  • StamperStamper
    Posts: 387
    That's because the film is a 11.
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