No Time To Die: Why It Should Not Have Been Made (The Way It Was)

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  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    00Beast wrote: »
    It's by far my least favorite Bond movie.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks, and I agree; it's my least favourite Bond movie as well.

    I feel less lonely now. I couldn't even bring myself to buy the DVD.

    It's at the bottom for me too. I don't plan on owning it either.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Murdock wrote: »
    00Beast wrote: »
    It's by far my least favorite Bond movie.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks, and I agree; it's my least favourite Bond movie as well.

    I feel less lonely now. I couldn't even bring myself to buy the DVD.

    It's at the bottom for me too. I don't plan on owning it either.

    Better make that 3. I haven't bought the DVD either. I paid my money and saw it on the big screen, but I don't feel any pull to revisit the film.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Murdock wrote: »
    00Beast wrote: »
    It's by far my least favorite Bond movie.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks, and I agree; it's my least favourite Bond movie as well.

    I feel less lonely now. I couldn't even bring myself to buy the DVD.

    It's at the bottom for me too. I don't plan on owning it either.

    @Murdock! Do you have any thoughts about the film shared in more depth anywhere? I'm curious to hear them, I don't see you around these parts that often. I hope all's well.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    @Creasy47, I haven't written any full on reviews of it but I could write one for the review thread. It would make a good way for me to put it to bed for good but worry not. All is well. :)
  • Posts: 1,394
    echo wrote: »
    He knew he had to die in order to spare Madeleine and Mathilde. That's part of it.

    Then they shouldn’t have had him get shot so badly.The “ sacrifice “ is very muddled.Tony Starks and Logan’s on screen deaths are way more powerful.

  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    He knew he had to die in order to spare Madeleine and Mathilde. That's part of it.
    Then they shouldn’t have had him get shot so badly.
    Well they needed Bond to be injured, because if not he could've just taken on Safin way easier, run up to the top, and then run back down to the submarine pen. I can't remember how much time he had, but its more time than he had when he'd been shot, smashed in the face with a virus and told he can never touch his own loved ones.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Murdock wrote: »
    @Creasy47, I haven't written any full on reviews of it but I could write one for the review thread. It would make a good way for me to put it to bed for good but worry not. All is well. :)

    That's certainly a fine way of looking at it. You should! I'd be more than happy to read that and see your thoughts.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited February 2022 Posts: 4,585
    mattjoes wrote: »
    If Bond had been shot 3 times, why did he even need to be poisoned? Or if he were poisoned, and the missile strike was imminent, why did he need to be shot? It's almost comical how overkill his death is. Why not have Bond strangled and crushed, along with shot, poisoned and blown up? Go the whole hog.

    And yes, I am aware that the poison wasn't lethal to Bond, but still...

    Overkill aside, several people in the forum have mentioned that the circumstances of Bond's death are unclear (recently I recall @Some_Kind_Of_Hero). Is he dying from his wounds or is he sacrificing himself, or both.

    Some people are convinced he wasn't going to die from his wounds, and so his death was the result of his choice to stay on the island to protect his family, and nothing else.

    Others say he was already going to die from his wounds, and the poisoning merely made him accept death more quickly, knowing that trying to leave the island would endanger his family.

    Others don't even care.

    From reading what the producers have said about the scene, as well as forum posts debating the scene, to me it now seems the emphasis was definitely on having Bond sacrifice himself for the safety of his family, which is a more meaningful, heroic, noble way to go.

    But why not leave it just at poisoning then? Why have the wounds?

    A couple of months ago I discussed possible reasons with a couple of people in another thread. Maybe the filmmakers didn't want anyone to wonder why Bond didn't try to leave the island, poison and everything, so that later he would at least try to find a solution to the nanobot thing, Q's words notwithstanding. The wounds would have prevented him from escaping in time, or escaping at all, nullifying that issue.

    More obviously, the wounds also make the scene dramatically more intense.

    But whatever purpose the wounds might serve, I wonder if ultimately they make the scene more muddled than clear, just as it has been argued by some people. Perhaps Bond could have just decided to stay on the island while in good health, poisonous nanobots aside. It worked in Terminator 2, after all.

    That's not even getting into the idea that having Bond both shot and poisoned might be overkill!

    Let me offer a third reason for Bond's decision: the future of his daughter. Setting the nanobots poisoning aside, Bond also knew that Mathilde would never be safe if he were around. They would always be looking over their shoulder. He had already endangered her and put her through trauma, so why not eliminate that? The film's flashback to a young Madeleine frames that situation perfectly: that life has no room for children.

    Safin comments, "What mother wouldn't sacrifice herself for her own child." Same goes for a father. There are lines throughout the film, dealing with the death of parents, rightly or wrongly.

    Nomi told Bond, in Jamaica, that he was just killing time and had nothing to live for. Ironically, in his last days on earth, he DID have something to live for.

    The poisoning is a bit of a MacGuffin. It's not the real reason; it's just the straw on the camel's back.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Murdock wrote: »
    00Beast wrote: »
    It's by far my least favorite Bond movie.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks, and I agree; it's my least favourite Bond movie as well.

    I feel less lonely now. I couldn't even bring myself to buy the DVD.

    It's at the bottom for me too. I don't plan on owning it either.

    Better make that 3. I haven't bought the DVD either. I paid my money and saw it on the big screen, but I don't feel any pull to revisit the film.

    The next film I do plan to own.
    Star Crossed Spy: The Search For Bond.
    Now... who was the last person he touched? That will be where his katra is.... ;)
  • Posts: 1,078
    Murdock wrote: »
    00Beast wrote: »
    It's by far my least favorite Bond movie.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Thanks, and I agree; it's my least favourite Bond movie as well.

    I feel less lonely now. I couldn't even bring myself to buy the DVD.

    It's at the bottom for me too. I don't plan on owning it either.

    Better make that 3. I haven't bought the DVD either. I paid my money and saw it on the big screen, but I don't feel any pull to revisit the film.

    I can't bring myself to purchase the DVD, because that would be like condoning it. Even though my collection could be seen as incomplete, I'd rather it be missing that particular film. I thought (and hoped) I'd grow into it, (I have a quality download, and I've watched it a few times, I do know the film well). But rather than grow into the new movie, it's actually made me think less of the other Craig Bond films.
    I wish it weren't the case.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Once you accept Bond’s death it’s all good.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Once you accept Bond’s death it’s all good.

    No, it's not. This ain't the last Bond movie. His death in this one carries no weight. At least in Star Trek 2 there was the *possibility* that Spock was gone for good. This is just Craig gone for good. Alas, his tenure was not a waste. We got one fine story (CR & QOS) before things started going south....
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    The last 10 minutes of NTTD carry more weight than the whole Brozza films combined. At least to me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    matt_u wrote: »
    The last 10 minutes of NTTD carry more weight than the whole Brozza films combined. At least to me.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH *choke* *choke* COUGH!
    shouldn't have read that as I was swallowing liquid
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    Posts: 4,343
    Hopefully that was hot coffee. ;)
  • Posts: 1,078
    chrisisall wrote: »
    No, it's not. This ain't the last Bond movie. His death in this one carries no weight.

    That's right. It can only ever be a cheap cynical plot device when they put 'he will return' on the screen ten minutes later. How does that work in any real fictional way, with a none sci-fi 'real word' character?
    Seriously, why should anyone care he's dead, when he's not?
    Kill him, bring him back, reboot... it's all a load of bollocks.
  • matt_umatt_u better known as Mr. Roark
    edited February 2022 Posts: 4,343
    You guys are really broken records. It's been 4 months. But look at the bright side: there won't be a NTTD sequel.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    No, it's not. This ain't the last Bond movie. His death in this one carries no weight.

    Seriously, why should anyone care he's dead, when he's not?

    Seriously, this may be the funniest thing I read inhere in a long time.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    chrisisall wrote: »
    No, it's not. This ain't the last Bond movie. His death in this one carries no weight.
    How does that work in any real fictional way, with a none sci-fi 'real word' character?
    The mans face changed four times and stayed around the same age from 1962 to 2002, until we were introduced to a man with no connection to that, who lived and died in his own continuity? You should be asking how does any of what came before Casino Royale work in any real fictional way?
  • edited February 2022 Posts: 2,266
    I’ve always kept quite on this because of all the controversy surrounding it, but to me it felt as if killing Bond off was EON cashing in on the recent trend of killing off beloved cinematic heroes, not something entirely different from the endings of Logan, or Avengers Endgame, and with Craig departing the role, I can see why they opted to go with that ending. But that’s why it doesn’t carry much emotional value for me. It did when I watched it in theater, but over these past few months I’ve had second thoughts on it. I also dislike how much the ending stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to several other interesting plot elements the film had. I watched Calvin Dyson’s reaction video shortly after watching the film myself, and he mentioned that this film is going to be remembered as the film that killed off Bond, rather than the film that gave Bond a family, and I absolutely agree with that, which there in lies my issue with the ending. Everything great about NTTD has officially been overshadowed by the ending and the controversy it stirs. It makes discussing the film boring, especially when fans start getting smug and arrogant with each other over opinions.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Once you accept Bond’s death it’s all good.
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Once you accept Bond’s death it’s all good.

    No, it's not.

    I’ll rephrase it: once you accept and LOVE how he dies, then it’s all good. ;)
  • Posts: 1,078
    Denbigh wrote: »
    The mans face changed four times and stayed around the same age from 1962 to 2002, until we were introduced to a man with no connection to that, who lived and died in his own continuity? You should be asking how does any of what came before Casino Royale work in any real fictional way?

    Did you miss the bit where they killed him in the film then said he'd return in the credits?

    It's either zombie Bond, Jesus Bond or just daft.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    I’ve always kept quite on this because of all the controversy surrounding it, but to me it felt as if killing Bond off was EON cashing in on the recent trend of killing off beloved cinematic heroes, not something entirely different from the endings of Logan, or Avengers Endgame, and with Craig departing the role, I can see why they opted to go with that ending. But that’s why it doesn’t carry much emotional value for me. It did when I watched it in theater, but over these past few months I’ve had second thoughts on it. I also dislike how much the ending stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to several other interesting plot elements the film had. I watched Calvin Dyson’s reaction video shortly after watching the film myself, and he mentioned that this film is going to be remembered as the film that killed off Bond, rather than the film that gave Bond a family, and I absolutely agree with that, which there in lies my issue with the ending. Everything great about NTTD has officially been overshadowed by the ending and the controversy it stirs. It makes discussing the film boring, especially when fans start getting smug and arrogant with each other over opinions.

    Sooner or later, someone was going to kill Bond. Some director or actor. It was bound to happen. DC had the balls to say "It's going to be me." It was bold and it was emphatic.

    I doubt this will EVER happen again. And NTTD will go down as a classic because of it. Mark my words.

  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited February 2022 Posts: 5,970
    Denbigh wrote: »
    The mans face changed four times and stayed around the same age from 1962 to 2002, until we were introduced to a man with no connection to that, who lived and died in his own continuity? You should be asking how does any of what came before Casino Royale work in any real fictional way?
    Did you miss the bit where they killed him in the film then said he'd return in the credits?
    It'll be a reboot. Just like Casino was.

    It's not like the credits are lying. James Bond will be back... just not Craigs.

    And again do you not think a man whose face has changed four times and stayed the same age in the span of 40 years isn't somewhat daft?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Kill him, bring him back, reboot... it's all a load of bollocks.

    It’s called fiction. It’s stories you make up. Sometimes you write a story one way, sometimes you write it another way. Sometimes they have no chronological connection to before or after. There’s no “rule” that states a character should only have one version of a story told.

    Craig’s films were never meant to be interpreted as being the same exact guy as the previous versions. Most people seem to understand that conceit, even in 2006. At least most people didn’t look at Craig Bond and think “oh yeah, he’s the same veteran of the Cold War”.

    I’ve seen you try to dismiss the notion of different iterations as “sci-fi/comic book nonsense”. It’s not. It’s happened on many other genres. Nobody watches BATES MOTEL
    and thinks “this doesn’t line up with Hitchcock’s film, what is this sci-fi nonsense?!” like a befuddled Miles Messervy.
  • TripAces wrote: »
    I’ve always kept quite on this because of all the controversy surrounding it, but to me it felt as if killing Bond off was EON cashing in on the recent trend of killing off beloved cinematic heroes, not something entirely different from the endings of Logan, or Avengers Endgame, and with Craig departing the role, I can see why they opted to go with that ending. But that’s why it doesn’t carry much emotional value for me. It did when I watched it in theater, but over these past few months I’ve had second thoughts on it. I also dislike how much the ending stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to several other interesting plot elements the film had. I watched Calvin Dyson’s reaction video shortly after watching the film myself, and he mentioned that this film is going to be remembered as the film that killed off Bond, rather than the film that gave Bond a family, and I absolutely agree with that, which there in lies my issue with the ending. Everything great about NTTD has officially been overshadowed by the ending and the controversy it stirs. It makes discussing the film boring, especially when fans start getting smug and arrogant with each other over opinions.

    Sooner or later, someone was going to kill Bond. Some director or actor. It was bound to happen. DC had the balls to say "It's going to be me." It was bold and it was emphatic.

    I doubt this will EVER happen again. And NTTD will go down as a classic because of it. Mark my words.

    I don’t question whether or not it was bound to happen, but the point you and I make are quite similar. NTTD is going to be remembered for it’s ending, and not the other great, interesting elements that film brought to the table, and that’s a shame.

    I’m not sure about anyone else here, but I found the scene where Bond was making Breakfest for Mathilde, and his protection of her in Safin’s lair way more significant and impactful than watching Bond get thousands of missiles launched straight at him.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited February 2022 Posts: 9,509
    TripAces wrote: »
    I’ve always kept quite on this because of all the controversy surrounding it, but to me it felt as if killing Bond off was EON cashing in on the recent trend of killing off beloved cinematic heroes, not something entirely different from the endings of Logan, or Avengers Endgame, and with Craig departing the role, I can see why they opted to go with that ending. But that’s why it doesn’t carry much emotional value for me. It did when I watched it in theater, but over these past few months I’ve had second thoughts on it. I also dislike how much the ending stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to several other interesting plot elements the film had. I watched Calvin Dyson’s reaction video shortly after watching the film myself, and he mentioned that this film is going to be remembered as the film that killed off Bond, rather than the film that gave Bond a family, and I absolutely agree with that, which there in lies my issue with the ending. Everything great about NTTD has officially been overshadowed by the ending and the controversy it stirs. It makes discussing the film boring, especially when fans start getting smug and arrogant with each other over opinions.

    Sooner or later, someone was going to kill Bond. Some director or actor. It was bound to happen. DC had the balls to say "It's going to be me." It was bold and it was emphatic.

    I doubt this will EVER happen again. And NTTD will go down as a classic because of it. Mark my words.

    I don’t question whether or not it was bound to happen, but the point you and I make are quite similar. NTTD is going to be remembered for it’s ending, and not the other great, interesting elements that film brought to the table, and that’s a shame.

    I’m not sure about anyone else here, but I found the scene where Bond was making Breakfest for Mathilde, and his protection of her in Safin’s lair way more significant and impactful than watching Bond get thousands of missiles launched straight at him.

    I was moved by the emotional weight of the film from the very first scene; it all accumulated to its beautiful, and rightful, conclusion.

    Some people love it.

    Some liked it.

    But the haters seem obsessed. The same things are repeated over and over as if this film was produced solely to personally hurt you.

    FFS , it's a film. You hated it. You won't purchase it. You won't watch it again. And that's fine. But repeating the same posts over and over won't change the fact that this is the film we got. Who cares at this point? A new James Bond adventure will soon be on its way.


    EDIT: P.S. I am not directing this at you, @007ClassicBondFan .....
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Well, you say 'soon', but... ;)
  • peter wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    I’ve always kept quite on this because of all the controversy surrounding it, but to me it felt as if killing Bond off was EON cashing in on the recent trend of killing off beloved cinematic heroes, not something entirely different from the endings of Logan, or Avengers Endgame, and with Craig departing the role, I can see why they opted to go with that ending. But that’s why it doesn’t carry much emotional value for me. It did when I watched it in theater, but over these past few months I’ve had second thoughts on it. I also dislike how much the ending stands out like a sore thumb in comparison to several other interesting plot elements the film had. I watched Calvin Dyson’s reaction video shortly after watching the film myself, and he mentioned that this film is going to be remembered as the film that killed off Bond, rather than the film that gave Bond a family, and I absolutely agree with that, which there in lies my issue with the ending. Everything great about NTTD has officially been overshadowed by the ending and the controversy it stirs. It makes discussing the film boring, especially when fans start getting smug and arrogant with each other over opinions.

    Sooner or later, someone was going to kill Bond. Some director or actor. It was bound to happen. DC had the balls to say "It's going to be me." It was bold and it was emphatic.

    I doubt this will EVER happen again. And NTTD will go down as a classic because of it. Mark my words.

    I don’t question whether or not it was bound to happen, but the point you and I make are quite similar. NTTD is going to be remembered for it’s ending, and not the other great, interesting elements that film brought to the table, and that’s a shame.

    I’m not sure about anyone else here, but I found the scene where Bond was making Breakfest for Mathilde, and his protection of her in Safin’s lair way more significant and impactful than watching Bond get thousands of missiles launched straight at him.

    I was moved by the emotional weight of the film from the very first scene; it all accumulated to its beautiful, and rightful, conclusion.

    Some people love it.

    Some liked it.

    But the haters seem obsessed. The same things are repeated over and over as if this film was produced solely to personally hurt you.

    FFS , it's a film. You hated it. You won't purchase it. You won't watch it again. And that's fine. But repeating the same posts over and over won't change the fact that this is the film we got. Who cares at this point? A new James Bond adventure will soon be on its way.


    EDIT: P.S. I am not directing this at you, @007ClassicBondFan .....

    No worries @peter, I really enjoy NTTD myself! I agree with everything you say, people do seem to be incredibly upset with the choices this film had made, but I think some people are forgetting that we haven’t been playing by the rules of the formula since 2006. I’m not a fan of some of the decisions made within the Craig era, mainly found in both QOS and SP, but I also think that the best moments from the Craig era are amongst the series’ best moments in general, that Casino Royale, Skyfall, and NTTD are highly entertaining films that push the boundaries of what this franchise and the films can be, that Craig’s era has been the first time since 1969 that the series has dared to push any boundaries at all, but I’m one of the people who hopes that the next era will be a return to the formula. I pretty much want another film like FRWL/TLD, and another era of Bond crafted in the style of those films, grounded stakes without the need for deconstruction. But alas, only EON can make those decisions, we just have to roll with it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    Well, you say 'soon', but... ;)

    I should have said, "soon enough" @Venutius, 😄
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @007ClassicBondFan ...such a reasonable way of considering this era. There were things you didn't quite enjoy, or even like.

    However you realize what this era was about, where they were successful, but you articulate that you're ready for a return to tradition.

    I have no idea where they go next, but if they continued from the template that they largely used from '62- '02, I can see a world where Bond was put on ice . The formula was proving creaky.

    Now that they have had this run, and it was quite successful with the general audience, they're free to do what they want with a clean slate.

    Perhaps returning to tradition will seem new again (since it hasn't really been a staple in the past 16 years)?; Or maybe it's a mix of the tradition and the elements that worked in the Craig era.

    As you say, it's EoN's choice.

    And they will move in a direction that will put bums in seats AND (hopefully) generally appease the Bond fans (which really is impossible, 😉)
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