James Bond books edited to remove racist references

1235715

Comments

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,800
    Yo, Fleming Estate, want me to buy ALL the Bond novels again? Just put new covers on them with great paintings similar to the 60's, 70's & 80's movie posters.
  • Posts: 2,918
    Burgess wrote: »
    The whole argument concerns the exact letter of Fleming’s word.

    Yes, in the reprints of Fleming's books, where one would expect Fleming's exact word to be respected, as it has been in the UK for the past 70 years and in America for the past 20. How could a continuation author creating a new adventure starring James Bond be expected to preserve "the exact letter of Fleming’s word"?
    It just seems highly selective to accept what are bastardized versions of Bond from continuation authors yet bemoan the relatively light changes of Fleming’s novels.

    There's no logical connection between those premises. What a continuation author writes doesn't change the content of Fleming's books. The continuation author is writing their version of Fleming's Bond, not rewriting or editing Fleming's books.
    I mean, if Fleming is Gospel then any other novels about Bond, by their very existence, are sacrilegious.

    No, it just means that fans are at liberty to accept them or not accept them as canon. The actual gospel had multiple writers after all and various "apocryphal" books. Sacrilege would be the actual deletion of parts of the "gospel," and that's what's happening here.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 380
    Revelator wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    The whole argument concerns the exact letter of Fleming’s word.

    Yes, in the reprints of Fleming's books, where one would expect Fleming's exact word to be respected, as it has been in the UK for the past 70 years and in America for the past 20. How could a continuation author creating a new adventure starring James Bond be expected to preserve "the exact letter of Fleming’s word"?
    It just seems highly selective to accept what are bastardized versions of Bond from continuation authors yet bemoan the relatively light changes of Fleming’s novels.

    There's no logical connection between those premises. What a continuation author writes doesn't change the content of Fleming's books. The continuation author is writing their version of Fleming's Bond, not rewriting or editing Fleming's books.
    I mean, if Fleming is Gospel then any other novels about Bond, by their very existence, are sacrilegious.

    No, it just means that fans are at liberty to accept them or not accept them as canon. The actual gospel had multiple writers after all and various "apocryphal" books. Sacrilege would be the actual deletion of parts of the "gospel," and that's what's happening here.

    Fair points. But there are various translations of the Gospels that are updated for all sorts of reasons, including that of modernity. The spirit still exists even if the language is modified.

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    Burgess wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Burgess wrote: »
    If the argument against sensitivity edits is centered on preserving Fleming's written word, worldview and characterization of Bond, then wouldn't any other work about Bond by any other author be just as offensive?

    I don't think anyone believed that Gardner and Benson were required to completely preserve Fleming's written word and worldview. That's an impossible task of literary ventriloquism. The only person who could accurately capture Fleming's worldview was Fleming himself. We expected Gardner and Benson to tell good Bond stories that reflected the best aspects of Fleming, and since those stories weren't set in Fleming's time and were by different authors, their worldview would have to be different. This even applied to Colonel Sun, which was closer in time to the original books but was by a much dfferent author. Amis channelled Fleming but did not slavishly mimic him. As for preserving Fleming's characterization of Bond, I think we expect continuation authors to be true to the spirit rather than the exact letter.
    It's clear that IFP's sensitivity changes are financial in origin. Any time they decide to publish anything Bond or Fleming related is, of course, a money-making venture. If these changes mean that Fleming can sit comfortably next to Doyle or Tolkien at Barnes and Noble then so be it.

    That's the thing: If I go to my local Barnes and Noble and find Conan Doyle on the shelf, I'm almost certain I wouldn't find an expurgated volume of Holmes stories edited for racial sensitivity. Doyle used the n-word too, and there's plenty more racial stuff that could be edited, but the only expurgated editions I've seen are in the children's section. If IFP thinks selling censored editions will really increase sales, I'd like to see their evidence.
    We have the novels as they were originally written in so many different editions, including those recent releases from the Folio Society.

    That's what makes IFP's decision so silly. They're shutting the barn door 60 years after the horse left. If Fleming was a children's writer I could see the financial incentive for sanitized versions (as with Dahl), but I think most people who enjoy reading books dislike reading censored ones. And any new readers who don't realize they've read censored versions will be quickly wised up by the internet and might resent being soft-soaped. Lastly, I also dislike the idea that anyone who wants to buy new uncensored copies of Fleming will have no options besides they want to pay extra for the Folio editions or waiting for whatever deluxe hardcovers IFP is rumored to release down the line.

    The whole argument concerns the exact letter of Fleming’s word. It just seems highly selective to accept what are bastardized versions of Bond from continuation authors yet bemoan the relatively light changes of Fleming’s novels.
    I mean, if Fleming is Gospel then any other novels about Bond, by their very existence, are sacrilegious.
    Oh I don't see it that way regarding John Pearson, Kingsley Amis, and by now many followers. In their way they respectfully continued the missions.

    A counterpoint would be that NONE of the writers' released works should be altered at later dates. They can stand or fall on publication, and later.

    With Ian Fleming Library I'm not actually certain what they're reacting to. Is it their own closely held beliefs to change the Chapter 5 name and other content of Live and Let Die? Or did they become a target by a group? Did they see the writing on the wall for these things, I actually couldn't blame them for that.

    In a similar way and considering recent political bents, will the mere mention of Nazi come to be expunged from media past and present? Or maybe not, since it's invoked with venom in arguments for its own purpose.

    This kind of meddling used to be closer to the creation than so many years later I note.

    casino%2Broyale%2Byou%2Basked.jpg 981378959.0.m.jpg


  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Fact: the Fleming novels can be found as .pdf documents online.
    Fact: the books become public domain in a decade or so.
    Fact: whoever wants to read them as they are, will always be able to.
    Fact: most people prefer the uncut, unedited, unrated, original thing over anything that was tempered with.

    My belief is that these selectively white-washed anniversary editions will not sell well.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fact: the Fleming novels can be found as .pdf documents online.
    Fact: the books become public domain in a decade or so.
    Fact: whoever wants to read them as they are, will always be able to.
    Fact: most people prefer the uncut, unedited, unrated, original thing over anything that was tempered with.

    My belief is that these selectively white-washed anniversary editions will not sell well.

    Which will make them rare. And thus, "collectible." And 20 years down the road, ridiculously "valuable." Just look at it as an investment, and you too will need to collect the whole series!
  • Posts: 3,327
    The only way Fleming Estate would get me to buy all the Bond books again is to reprint the Pan 60's editions in the same retro covers. And leave the writing inside 100% intact!
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited March 2023 Posts: 7,551
    Already have two full sets uncensored so it doesn't really affect me. If all they did was scrub the N word out of Live and Let Die, I don't really have a problem with it. My preferred solution however would just be to put a disclaimer at the book saying how these views and language don't reflect the ideas of the Fleming Estate in 2023, etc etc.
    Either way, I wouldn't be buying another full set unless they had unbelievable covers and were very inexpensive.
    All that to say, censorship is bad.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Fact: the Fleming novels can be found as .pdf documents online.
    Fact: the books become public domain in a decade or so.
    Fact: whoever wants to read them as they are, will always be able to.
    Fact: most people prefer the uncut, unedited, unrated, original thing over anything that was tempered with.

    My belief is that these selectively white-washed anniversary editions will not sell well.

    Literary Bond = already public domain in Canada!
  • ggl007ggl007 www.archivo007.com Spain, España
    Posts: 2,541
  • KronsteenKronsteen Stockholm
    Posts: 783
    My problem with this debate is that most people (outside this forum of course) that rants over this situation haven't even come close to opening a Fleming book. They don't really care about Bond. They just use Bong as a pawn in their weird right-wing agenda screaming "woke" on everything they don't like (the woke argument is just lazy nonsense).

    I've read all the Flemings countless of times, but I'm quite sure that the changes will be minor and therefore personally I don't care too much. I know that I, and probably many others, wouldn't even notice the changes unless someone pointed them out...

    One aspect to the situation is also that of censorship and intellectual property, where the debate is off the rails Changing the works you have the rights to cannot, by definition, be censorship. Quite the opposite in fact. If you own the rights to a work, whether you're the artist or just the copyright holder, you must have the right to alter it. That is the way the copyright must work. If you were forbidden to change a work you had the ownership over, that is actually a kind of censorship (but also not, but you get my point...) On another note I still think 70 years is too long.

    With this mild and minor rant I still want to say that I don't think anyone should change another artists work (unless works aimed for children, in that case I think there are situations where the works should be altered, as kids don't have the same ability as adults to critically reflect on what they're reading).

    So: I don't think they should change the Fleming novels, at least not when they're celebrating the 70th anniversary. I understand why they're doing it and I can sympathise with their feeling of wanting to do it, but I don't fully agree with it. The Bond film series is getting more modern for every movie that comes out and I suppose they're hoping to get young Bond movie fans to explore the literary character as well. No idea if it will pay off. Probably not.

    Another weird thing about this whole situation is what they've decided to leave in and what to take out. Who have decided? And how? Why is it okay to leave racism towards Asians? Or some of the more extreme sexism comments? That is quite baffling to me. Either you take out all of the offensive stuff, or you leave everything in. But if you start taking all offensive stuff out, who decides where the line is? That is a big issue for me in this situation.

    Over and out, fellow Bond fans...
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    edited March 2023 Posts: 1,101
    ggl007 wrote: »

    Even i could do something "better" than that.
    7dcl21.jpg
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited March 2023 Posts: 3,152
    I'm not a collector so the only way I'd buy another copy of a book is if it contained previously unpublished material or was a more 'pure text' version of it. Fleming himself apparently signing off on the original US version of the LALD mss is one thing, but modern censors rewriting to appease a perceived opinion among a set of people who'll probably never even read Fleming is another. It's bizarre that IFP seem to think that the main selling point of the 70th anniversary editions is that they've been censored. Even if I'd been planning to get these that'd be an immediate no sale.
  • Posts: 5,994
    What kills me is the first answer to that tweet :
    Comic Book Craig #MakeTheSnyderVerseAnime
    @ComicBookCraig
    ·
    20h
    En réponse à
    @DutchBondFan
    et
    @rolandhulme
    There aren’t even any missiles in moonraker if it was the spy who loved me maybe. But come on!! Similar thing happened with the LOTR book rerelease. They took crap shots from the craptacular rings of power!!

    Errr... There is a missile in MR : The MoonRaker itself ! And there are no missiles in TDWLM. Another one who hasn't read the novels and mistake them for the movies.
  • brinkeguthriebrinkeguthrie Piz Gloria
    Posts: 1,400
    All my Flemings are on my Paperwhite. I hope they don't do this to them-
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/23/03/04/0521244/roald-dahl-ebooks-reportedly-censored-remotely
  • LucknFateLucknFate 007 In New York
    Posts: 1,649
    All my Flemings are on my Paperwhite. I hope they don't do this to them-
    https://yro.slashdot.org/story/23/03/04/0521244/roald-dahl-ebooks-reportedly-censored-remotely

    Changing something I've already bought would bother me a lot more than changing something I still have the choice to buy, for sure.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    Yes, indeed, the idea of buying the versions you want only for the publishers to remotely censor them later is pretty damn creepy, tbh!
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,280
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, the idea of buying the versions you want only for the publishers to remotely censor them later is pretty damn creepy, tbh!

    Indeed. I do wonder if there'd be a case for misrepresentation under UK law too as the text was purchased (and thus the contract entered into) on the grounds that it was the full unexpurgated text. It's tantamount to fraud or deceit, which is what misrepresentation ultimately us. I'm afraid actions like this on the part of publishers will do nothing to allay the legitimate fear of readers that publishers are busily engaged in the blatant rewriting of history a la Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,803
    Gerard wrote: »
    What kills me is the first answer to that tweet :
    Comic Book Craig #MakeTheSnyderVerseAnime
    @ComicBookCraig
    ·
    20h
    En réponse à
    @DutchBondFan
    et
    @rolandhulme
    There aren’t even any missiles in moonraker if it was the spy who loved me maybe. But come on!! Similar thing happened with the LOTR book rerelease. They took crap shots from the craptacular rings of power!!

    Errr... There is a missile in MR : The MoonRaker itself ! And there are no missiles in TDWLM. Another one who hasn't read the novels and mistake them for the movies.

    These things happen.

    9781567310801-us.jpg

  • edited March 2023 Posts: 2,918
    The version of Goldfinger from that series has the same problem.

    d3fcbb73-fad5-491b-8333-4b3a367ab1cb.4650ee29d2bef8cdc0dc588736adcdc1.jpeg

    The weird thing is that the covers of Doctor No, Live and Let Die, For Your Eyes Only, Moonraker, and The Spy Who Loved Me depict events that happened only in the novels!

    9781567310542-us.jpg

    9781567310573-us.jpg

    9781567310498-us.jpg

    518PX82RYJL.jpg

    1TSWLM_Cover-2.jpeg

    Makes you wonder if the cover designer was out sick one day and left the artist to his own devices. A pity, since most of the covers were excellent.

    As for the censored editions, apparently they will have a little disclaimer buried in the copyright page that says certain passages have been altered. I see the censored edition of LALD is already on Amazon, with a pre-sale date of June 27. It has the blandest cover art imaginable.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,280
    Revelator wrote: »
    The version of Goldfinger from that series has the same problem.

    I suppose that one is slightly more excusable than the cover for YOLT. Even John Gardner slipped up and had Bond recalling a girl painted in gold in Cold/Cold Fall (1996).
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    What's the problem with that YOLT cover? Is it that Bond should be facedown unconscious in the water as the volcano is erupting?
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 2,918
    If memory serves, it's a geyser that goes off in YOLT, not a volcano. Bond turns the wheel of the geyser's regulating valve, which causes Blofeld's castle to collapse in flames. An accurate cover would show Bond hanging on to a helium balloon while in the background the castle goes down in fire and rubble.
  • Posts: 380
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, the idea of buying the versions you want only for the publishers to remotely censor them later is pretty damn creepy, tbh!

    Indeed. I do wonder if there'd be a case for misrepresentation under UK law too as the text was purchased (and thus the contract entered into) on the grounds that it was the full unexpurgated text. It's tantamount to fraud or deceit, which is what misrepresentation ultimately us. I'm afraid actions like this on the part of publishers will do nothing to allay the legitimate fear of readers that publishers are busily engaged in the blatant rewriting of history a la Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    This is far from rewriting history. I’m more worried about American Conservatives passing legislation in various states to restrict the actual teaching of history. No one is burning past editions or restricting the access of past editions. We don’t even know if IFP has a plan to release edited and non-edited editions side-by-side or within a close timeframe.

    I’m assuming that everyone who believes only authors can change their own work fully support George Lucas’ right to not only edit his Star Wars movies but restrict the sale of the trilogy as it was originally shown.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Burgess wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    Yes, indeed, the idea of buying the versions you want only for the publishers to remotely censor them later is pretty damn creepy, tbh!

    Indeed. I do wonder if there'd be a case for misrepresentation under UK law too as the text was purchased (and thus the contract entered into) on the grounds that it was the full unexpurgated text. It's tantamount to fraud or deceit, which is what misrepresentation ultimately us. I'm afraid actions like this on the part of publishers will do nothing to allay the legitimate fear of readers that publishers are busily engaged in the blatant rewriting of history a la Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    This is far from rewriting history. I’m more worried about American Conservatives passing legislation in various states to restrict the actual teaching of history. No one is burning past editions or restricting the access of past editions. We don’t even know if IFP has a plan to release edited and non-edited editions side-by-side or within a close timeframe.

    I’m assuming that everyone who believes only authors can change their own work fully support George Lucas’ right to not only edit his Star Wars movies but restrict the sale of the trilogy as it was originally shown.

    Good question. I have always supported the idea that Mister Star Wars himself could do to the films whatever he wanted... since he is, ultimately, Mister Star Wars. But trying to keep us from watching "original" Star Wars is something I didn't agree with.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2023 Posts: 17,800
    BTW, these are my favourite Bond book covers. So simple. Lets you find out for yourself without any ideas going in.
    Edit: okay, can someone tell me how to paste pictures in here? Why is it such a problem? Every single time I try to post pictures here I have to spend an hour trying to figure it out...
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,431
    If the artist wishes to tinker or do things with their art I say let them have at it. When Estates, or publishers start to take it on themselves to hire "sensitivity readers" (what a bonkers term that is) and have them change words and sentences I draw the line. The fact that IFP is using Ian's supposed (I have heard some say he didn't sign off on the US LALD) agreement with publishing a US version of LALD as a blanket statement to change some of his other works is taking an easy way out.

    I fear for the generations ahead of us. Sport articles here in Canada have disclaimers when they deal with domestic violence and such. My Toastmaster clubs at the contest now have a disclaimer about the views and opinions of the speakers are their view and don't reflect Toastmasters. We seem to be bending over backwards to provide "safe" spaces, but the world isn't bubble wrapped and part of navigating it is to develop critical thinking skills and the nuance of thought.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 2,918
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Edit: okay, can someone tell me how to paste pictures in here? Why is it such a problem? Every single time I try to post pictures here I have to spend an hour trying to figure it out...

    Place the image's weblink in between these image tags [img][/img]

    For example, if I find an image with this url: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0210/6626/products/2023_01_06_09_53_30_001_600x.jpg?v=1673022938

    I would then bracket the url with the image codes [img][/img] and get this:

    2023_01_06_09_53_30_001_600x.jpg?v=1673022938
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2023 Posts: 17,800
    7f82e3bc-93c2-49e9-8652-6d2e94d5920f
    Nope. Doesn't work. Eff it. EVERY OTHER SITE lets you just upload images. I'm done here. Frustrated beyond belief.
  • edited March 2023 Posts: 2,918
    I see the url of the image you're trying to post is
    https://photobucket.com/u/chrisisall/p/7f82e3bc-93c2-49e9-8652-6d2e94d5920f

    When I copy and paste this url it takes me to a log-in screen for photobucket, so you might need to adjust its privacy settings. I think the problem is on Photobucket's end.

    I used to use that site but nowadays I prefer Imgur for image hosting. When I click on an image in my Imgur account I'm given several weblinks, and I usually select "BBCode (message boards & forums)", which works on this board.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2023 Posts: 17,800
    7f82e3bc-93c2-49e9-8652-6d2e94d5920f
    Well I have access to photobucket, and it still doesn't work. Really, I have a heavy heart here, I just wish I could post pictures without joining Imager. Yet another hoop to jump through.
Sign In or Register to comment.