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I was watching Goldfinger with one of my daughters (she was late teens at the time), and I was mortified….
To pretend that these scenes aren’t problematic is turning a blind eye.
Once again, cool 👍🏻. Bang on. You got it. You’re sooo correct.
🙄…
James "Problematic" Bond. A quiet, dull, anonymous name.
💯
Ok Deke
Yeah, OK. Bond is an anti-hero.
Yes Deke
But is it only problematic to a certain generation of women? For example, your daughter may have been appalled, but what about your mother / grandmother?
Bond had to do something to stop Goldfinger. He deduced (correctly) that Pussy fancied him and wasn’t totally bad, so if he could get her to put him ahead of her loyalty to her employer, then there was a chance to save the world. He didn’t do it for fun.
Maybe Bond should just beat up / shoot the female baddies in future instead of bedding them.
I’ve actually posted about this before: my mother had a problem with Connery, and she did not enjoy the barn scene. Ever (and Connery was King in our house (my brother, father and I worshipped him).
I never took my mum’s complaints seriously until my wife saw the barn scene, then one of my daughters.
I imagine that women of that era, like my mum, may have always been uncomfortable with this sort scene in Goldfinger, but who were they going to discuss this with? Their husbands? The media? It’s not like they had a lot of avenues to discuss this.
It’s not a proud moment in Bond history.
Feminists hated James Bond from the beginning.
Nice troll, Deke.
Dunno if my mother would consider herself a feminist in the way your brilliant post could be insinuating, but, of course, you don't read posts fully before responding, do you?
So I'll repeat for you: she always had a problem with Connery, not James Bond, and she always hated the barn scene.
She had no problem with Bond; her favourite was Moore. And later in life, Craig.
Try READING the post next time...nothing I said had any reference to feminism, nor hating James Bond...
I'm not talking about your mother.
Look, James Bond had a lot of criticism at the time.
Right Deke, gotch, bro!
It's a bit of a shame. For someone younger if that's your only reference for Bond, of course it's going to be negative. I have a friend (maybe more accurately a friend of a friend) who I've spoken to about Bond. Feminist, uni educated in London and wasn't too keen on Bond. I actually recommended Fleming's TSWLM and a few of the other films/books for her. Apparently with a few criticisms she liked all of them and they didn't feel uncomfortable to watch/read. So I do feel that these sorts of moments are outliers and more a thing of the 'swinging 60s'.
@peter Deke is a man of few words. I suggest we continue to exchange thoughts without allowing his one-sentence posts and stubborn lack of social behavior to get in the way.
Yeah, I don’t think we have to ever be concerned with Bond flipping a woman over his shoulder, saying a line, “now let’s both play”, forcing his weight on her, her fighting back, and then being overcome with his absolute masculinity and animalistic sensuality, that, of course she has to submit to her *true* desire for him.
It’ll never be seen again, it’s safe to say.
EDIT: agree @DarthDimi — 💯 💯 💯
That is one interpretation of the scene. Others have a more realistic grown up interpretation.
But I think we can all(?) agree that we would not see such a scene in a modern film. Just as we would not have seen a woman fighting a man in the 1960s. Censorship and advocating change in social values is always with us, and forever changing.
I’m sorry I don’t fit your description of a grown up @Troy …
I mean, as an adult, is it necessary to make an ad hominem? Speaking as an adult?
Apologies if you feel personally offended. That was not my intention, despite my, perhaps, clumsy language.
I’m not offended. Merely surprised. You asked me a question @Troy and I thought I answered it, yet you made a comment about a post I made in reply to someone else.
And you’re still pigeon-holing a stranger that you know nothing about as being a woke-me too-liberal-politically correct observer. But instead—
I’m merely a person, a stranger on a fan site, stating an opinion you don’t agree with. No political agenda to it whatsoever.
Very odd: an apology for one thing, that accuses me of a list of others, 😂.
Anyways…. Just my opinion, and, actually, more of a description of the scene, but, next time, it’d be nice of you not to assume I’m a part of any political ideology. I’ll be happy to discuss further over PM, but if not, I hope you can discuss our differences rather than trying to peg me as an empty headed ideologue who only spouts “opinions” based on politics. That’s kinda shallow, in my opinion…
What's the reality of the situation? What is the period's perception of these moments in films?
Objectively, I see a man pinning down a woman and kissing her until she relinquishes and decides to kiss him back. In the second I see a man forcing a kiss on a woman, who he then propositions sex as recompense for a mistake of hers.
Is there something wrong in what I see? Or do you interpret the previous paragraph in a different way than the contemporary view?
"Woke" is a poorly defined word, mostly used to negatively reflect on "trends" that are typically exxagerated. Bluntly put, Bond still bangs women, so I don’t see what we are so worried about. That he probably isn't going to hassle them or squeeze his tongue inside their mouths anymore, is not part of some major anti-male agenda. Many people simply don't like that anymore. Politics has little to do with that. Try upbringing instead, and younger generations figuring out what they find acceptable in their world, just like we did when we were younger.
Most folks today wouldn't throw an empty beer can in a river or forest anymore (I hope). That, however, doesn't mean that we are all extreme environmentalists all of a sudden. Let's not put "woke" or "PC" or "Me Too" or "liberal" labels on things too hastily. Knowing @peter, he doesn't mind Bond sinning his pelvic region straight into Catholic hell with as many girls as he can seduce in a film. He merely observes that some things change over the course of 60 very long years.
Remember when kids were physically assaulted by teachers in schools? You didn't do your home work? Let's hit those knuckles with a steel rod until they bleed! Would any of us find that acceptable anymore? I don't assume so. Does that mean that we are all pacifist say-it-with-flowers pussies? No. And judging by some of the violence we have seen in recent Bond films, neither are the folks at EON. In fact, why didn't Largo get a few more minutes of pleasant torture with Domino, before the interruption? CR showed us crude, naked pain. Could it be that what wasn't acceptable back in the '60s has become more acceptable now? Boy, were those people back then a bunch of sensitive wallflowers!
My point is that some things change, and some things don't. That's the nature of societal evolution. It doesn't always have to come down to politics. In fact, if we continue to pull everything into the political arena, we will start losing track of natural trend shifts in society, as they have always occurred. Not everything is the result of an evil cabal of angry feminists plotting against us, toxic males, by taking the manly stuff out of our films! If audiences really wanted such scenes, they'd make that clear, and filmmakers would listen. Because money always wins in the end.
But seriously, you said it far better than me: times change and hopefully, more often, for the better. There’s nothing nefarious in change. And there’s no agenda to Bond no longer performing in a similar scenes as the barn in Goldfinger. That’s it, and you explained it very well.
I agree that’s what was probably intended at the time, but that doesn’t mean the more critical interpretation isn’t warranted. Attitudes change, and lines that once seemed blurred become much clearer. And as a result, trying to kiss a woman while she’s been pinned to the ground and visibly struggling, and blackmailing another, just doesn’t seem as harmless and playful as it once did.
It's a bit like seeing blackface or a racial caricature presented unironically in an old film or whatever. There's that gritting of the teeth and the 'ooof' reaction.
I'm sure people were affected by it, and I'm not defending the portrayal of sexual assault as playful and fun, just that the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable is much clearer now that most of us are more sensitive (and by sensitive I mean sympathetic, not easily offended) to issues of sexual violence. And for someone to not see a problem with these scenes, is odd to say the least.