The Future of Sex in the Bond films

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  • DwayneDwayne New York City
    Posts: 2,851
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, the GF scene is unfortunate and terrible.

    I am not one for censorship of any kind, but this scene (how would you excise it, though?), the Pat Fearing one in TB, and the two (!) smacks of Tracy in OHMSS always take me out of these films in a very bad way.

    "Smacks" were quite common in classic films.

    The following is actually one of the film posters for TOO LATE FOR TEARS (1949) and I've yet to see a Gloria Grahame noir where she doesn't get knocked around multiple times.
    MV5BMTUwOTY4MTgxOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNjg4NDUzMzE@._V1_.jpg

    Subjective opinion: While there are many things in early Bond films (or classic movies, for that matter) that give me pause, I try to compartmentalize how I evaluate them. While depictions of gender and race in older films are often problematic, it would be wrong to censor them (or pretend that they didn't exist). In fact, we can use them to have a discussion about how things should be handled going forward. We can also use them to contrast other cases where things were handled differently.
  • Posts: 12,483
    JustJames wrote: »
    Atomic Blonde, Anna, Red Sparrow — there’s definitely a way to do Spy films with sex, but if Bond moves more into that direction, it will be moving further and further from its vaguely family friendly past.
    It’s already become more arthouse, it may as well go all in.
    Get Won Kar Wai in.

    It would feel a bit strange to start having R-rated Bond movies after a run of 25 PG / PG-13 ones, but to be fair, if all the Fleming novels were done completely faithfully, they all would be. It’d be a bold new direction, possibly good.
  • edited May 2023 Posts: 2,919
    R-ratings would limit the audience and lower the box office, so I doubt they'll be considered. Cubby used to refer to the Bond films as "sadism for the whole family," and that applies to sex too. The Bond films will continue to feature beautiful women and some beefcake, but I don't foresee the series getting more explicit.
  • Posts: 12,483
    It’s probably not likely, no. But there have been some highly successful R-rated pictures in recent years. I definitely expect the series to stay PG-13 though.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,796
    Yes, aside from TB and GF, what about Bond sneaking into Severine's shower in Skyfall?

    And it didn't came from an old movie.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 218
    chrisisall wrote: »
    JustJames wrote: »
    Atomic Blonde, Anna, Red Sparrow — there’s definitely a way to do Spy films with sex, but if Bond moves more into that direction, it will be moving further and further from its vaguely family friendly past.
    It’s already become more arthouse, it may as well go all in.
    Get Won Kar Wai in.

    To ME, Bond movies peaked with Timothy Dalton. A perfect blend of novel Bond & movie Bond.
    We might never see such perfection again.

    The Living Daylights held my top spot for the longest time. Arguably it still does. Only the the slightly muddled boss fight at the end let’s it down, and it’s not as visually appealing compared to later things. It would have been a cooler ending if Bond had just shot Whitaker with a Sniper rifle, bringing that full circle and closing that particular Chekhov’s gun. But that was too low key for 87. They could more or less redo the films overall story now, and it would work.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 945
    There is a difference between romance and sex, just as there is a difference between genuine wit and cheesy one-liners. Romance doesn’t have to mean Bond falling head over heels in love and feeling ‘this is the one’, it can come from a mutual attraction in extreme circumstances that leads to a temporary relationship. You can do that without it feeling gratuitous, but I do think there is a problem of every film needing to have two beautiful young women in it as part of the marketing formula, which often leads to one being ‘disposable’; killing the first Bond-girl in the film as both a way of getting him emotionally involved and a convenient way of getting her out of the way ready for girl #2 looks less and less acceptable today, imo.

    I think the Craig films have been quite inventive in shaking the formula up in some cases, but that Skyfall shower scene, as SIS_HQ pointed out, is kind of a head-scratcher - I’m sure I remember hearing Mendes or Craig talk about trying to make it seem less ‘rapey’, but to me it just seems ill-conceived and unnecessary. The idea that Bond has snuck aboard, stripped naked, and hidden himself in her shower for god-knows-how-long, just waiting to surprise her is just all sorts of weird and creepy. What were they thinking?
  • Posts: 7,518
    JustJames wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    JustJames wrote: »
    Atomic Blonde, Anna, Red Sparrow — there’s definitely a way to do Spy films with sex, but if Bond moves more into that direction, it will be moving further and further from its vaguely family friendly past.
    It’s already become more arthouse, may as well go all in.
    Get Won Kar Wai in.

    To ME, Bond movies peaked with Timothy Dalton. A perfect blend of novel Bond & movie Bond.
    We might never see such perfection again.

    The Living Daylights held my top spot for the longest time. final encounter still does. Only the the slightly muddled boss fight at the end let’s it down, and it’s not as visually appealing compared to later things. It would have been a cooler ending if Bond had just shot Whitaker with a Sniper rifle, bringing that full circle and closing that particular Chekhov’s gun. But that was too low key for 87. They could more or less redo the films overall story now, and it would work.

    While I agree with you regarding TLD being one of the very best, I do love that final encounter with Whitaker in his War room! Your idea could have worked, but I think Bond needs to have the last meet with the villain face to face! ( One of the reasons why I dislike SF. i was looķng forward to Silva and Bonds final confrontation, only for to be let down with the abrupt knife killing!)
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Like others on here, I've no interest in seeing 'the act'. But the build-up, the seduction and the aftermath? Keep it as it is - Bond and Solange in CR was a great example of the way to present it. After all, just like Bond himself, some women also like uncomplicated, no-strings sex for it's own sake, right? Er, so I've heard... I don't have any problem with Bond and those women getting what they want from each other.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Two attractive people, in dangerous situations... It's not hard to fathom... You don't need a woman helplessly falling into Bond's arms, nor Bond falling in love...

    Hemingway's last wife discussed the sexual energy in Europe during the Second World War; it was erotically charged.

    It's not sexist to think a man like Bond, who lives a dangerous life, would be Ina situation with a woman where they hungrily take and comfort each other.

    It's human nature and can be depicted with class and maturity.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,331
    Dwayne wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    Yes, the GF scene is unfortunate and terrible.

    I am not one for censorship of any kind, but this scene (how would you excise it, though?), the Pat Fearing one in TB, and the two (!) smacks of Tracy in OHMSS always take me out of these films in a very bad way.

    "Smacks" were quite common in classic films.

    The following is actually one of the film posters for TOO LATE FOR TEARS (1949) and I've yet to see a Gloria Grahame noir where she doesn't get knocked around multiple times.
    MV5BMTUwOTY4MTgxOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwNjg4NDUzMzE@._V1_.jpg

    Subjective opinion: While there are many things in early Bond films (or classic movies, for that matter) that give me pause, I try to compartmentalize how I evaluate them. While depictions of gender and race in older films are often problematic, it would be wrong to censor them (or pretend that they didn't exist). In fact, we can use them to have a discussion about how things should be handled going forward. We can also use them to contrast other cases where things were handled differently.

    I realize this. What I'm saying is that it takes me out of GF, TB, and OHMSS in particular, which is unfortunate because I think GF and OHMSS are near-perfect Bond films.

    Eon could not have known how people would "read" a behavior decades later. But here we are.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,796
    There is a difference between romance and sex, just as there is a difference between genuine wit and cheesy one-liners. Romance doesn’t have to mean Bond falling head over heels in love and feeling ‘this is the one’, it can come from a mutual attraction in extreme circumstances that leads to a temporary relationship. You can do that without it feeling gratuitous, but I do think there is a problem of every film needing to have two beautiful young women in it as part of the marketing formula, which often leads to one being ‘disposable’; killing the first Bond-girl in the film as both a way of getting him emotionally involved and a convenient way of getting her out of the way ready for girl #2 looks less and less acceptable today, imo.

    I think the Craig films have been quite inventive in shaking the formula up in some cases, but that Skyfall shower scene, as SIS_HQ pointed out, is kind of a head-scratcher - I’m sure I remember hearing Mendes or Craig talk about trying to make it seem less ‘rapey’, but to me it just seems ill-conceived and unnecessary. The idea that Bond has snuck aboard, stripped naked, and hidden himself in her shower for god-knows-how-long, just waiting to surprise her is just all sorts of weird and creepy. What were they thinking?

    True!
  • edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,154
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I've never been bothered by the GF and TB scenes because I see them as tongue-in-cheek, not rapey scenes as some have described them.
    Yes, there's a lot of truth in that. Compare either of those scenes to Max Cady's sexual assault (at the very least) on Bowden's wife in the original Cape Fear. Compare the whole tone. That's a 'rapey' scene and, despite not being explicit by later standards, it remains brutal and distressing to this day, even though it's contemporary with Dr. No. Compare Connery's performance with Mitchum's, where the threat of sexual violence, domination and force that he projects is almost tangible. The whole intent is vastly different in Bond.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,053
    Venutius wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I've never been bothered by the GF and TB scenes because I see them as tongue-in-cheek, not rapey scenes as some have described them.
    Yes, there's a lot of truth in that. Compare either of those scenes to Max Cady's sexual assault (at the very least) on Bowden's wife in the original Cape Fear. Compare the whole tone. That's a 'rapey' scene and, despite not being explicit by later standards, it remains brutal and distressing to this day, even though it's contemporary with Dr. No. Compare Connery's performance with Mitchum's, where the threat of sexual violence, domination and force that he projects is almost tangible. The whole intent is vastly different in Bond.
    The difference is that in Cape Fear (and most other movies with such a situation) the attempted rape or sexual aggravation or harassment is done by the bad guys, to show how bad they are. In those Bond cases in question here, it is the protagonist who acts in quite a dubious and unacceptable way, with some people possibly thinking it's okay in real life if James Bond acts like that, too.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,154
    Yes, I take your point - although Bond's never been a traditional White Hat character and I'd prefer that he didn't become one. Part of the appeal is that Bond is the most dangerous man in the room and he'd make a hell of an enemy so you're glad that he's on your side, no? I wouldn't want that edge to be sanitised out of the character in future films. So there should always be elements that may be morally dubious - he couldn't do his job/be who he is otherwise.
    True, no doubt some viewers could be influenced to mimic Bond's actions - an individual in the same city as me recently changed his name to 'James Bond' and was arrested for carrying a bb gun for what he said was 'the symbolism'! But I wouldn't want future Bonds be unarmed in order to prevent other vulnerable viewers from deciding to copy him too. Similarly, I wouldn't want the next Bond to produce a written consent form for the Bond girl to sign before they do the deed. Exaggerating for effect, but you get the idea.
    In light of Cary Fukunaga saying explicitly that Connery's Bond was 'a rapist' and others saying that those scenes in GF and TB are 'rapey scenes', I do think that the Cape Fear comparison is fair, tbh. I'd say that Mitchum's performance in that scene in Cape Fear shows you what that actually looks like. And it doesn't look anything like GF and TB.
  • edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
    deleted


  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,053
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Cary Fukunaga, no irony there.
    Wow, it took me a few moments to get your pun.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,847
    I take the scenes as they're presented.


    GF. Bond forces himself on Ms. Galore then she visibly gives in, returning his passion. And is shown to be on his side soon after. She literally and happily ends the film in his arms. Does not detract from the strong character to my mind.

    TB. Patricia Fearing gives a finger-waving but still playful objection to Bond's suggestion. Seconds later is shown losing her robe and acquiescing. After 007's late night rounds, she expresses jealousy regarding his comment to the beautiful woman in the corridor. They part the next day on the best of terms or even better. "Any time, James. Any place!"

    OP. Some back and forth discussion, two of a kind on opposite sides. Also some frustration going on. Bond takes a chance and forces an embrace and a kiss. Initial reaction to resist is quickly overcome, Octopussy fully opens herself to the kiss and to Bond without reservations. She doesn't waiver from that through the rest of the film.

    SF. Bond has the invitation from Sévérine--if he survives the casino, meet at her yacht Chimera. She's shown in a silk robe waiting for him, champagne and two glasses on the table. She showers. Bond shows up, lets himself into the shower and she does not resist in the slightest what appears to be her plan all along. It makes sense to me she would want that both for herself (as a personal escape from the control she's under by the bad guys) and toward a final out from Silva altogether.

    SP. Bond's Turkish lover. Shown in passion and otherwise. I didn't see evidence of anything negative, just a relationship that the two took on as useful and enjoyable at the time.

    SP. Bond offers Lucia life insurance at the funeral and backs it up at her residence. It appears she didn't love her husband Sciarra but she rightly vents rage at Bond for disrupting her arrangement and signing her death warrant as she says. Bond forces the issue and they passionately embrace, couple off screen. Before he moves on he reassures her a CIA contact will offer protection. She expresses concern for him, for the danger involved in the direction taken.


    Based on the end result and reaction of the women involved, these scenarios work fine for the story and for me. The modern Craig Bond set-ups are exceptionally well done across Solange, Vesper, Fields, Camille, Sévérine, Estrella, Turkish lover, Paloma, and Madeleine. Whether or not they go to bed.

    In recent years I've been at a GF screening with an audience, and the roll in the hay generated some awkward silence and nervous laughter. So times have changed, and I don't expect the GF and TB type examples will come up again in new films. But even beyond the context of the 20th Century origins, taken as a whole the scenes in question show both male and female characters deciding to engage with positive outcomes for both. That's wish fulfillment for all sides I hope.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited May 2023 Posts: 3,154
    SF. Bond has the invitation from Sévérine--if he survives the casino, meet at her yacht Chimera. She's shown in a silk robe waiting for him, champagne and two glasses on the table. She showers. Bond shows up, lets himself into the shower and she does not resist in the slightest what appears to be her plan all along. It makes sense to me she would want that both for herself (as a personal escape from the control she's under by the bad guys) and toward a final out from Silva altogether.
    Yes, well put. You've said it more clearly than I could, RichardTheBruce - I had a go at something like this earlier, but couldn't get it summed up as succinctly as this, so I gave up! ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,492
    I take the scenes as they're presented.

    Bear in mind you are presenting the scenes here though, not the films. For example:
    SF. Bond has the invitation from Sévérine--if he survives the casino, meet at her yacht Chimera. She's shown in a silk robe waiting for him, champagne and two glasses on the table. She showers. Bond shows up, lets himself into the shower and she does not resist in the slightest what appears to be her plan all along. It makes sense to me she would want that both for herself (as a personal escape from the control she's under by the bad guys) and toward a final out from Silva altogether.

    You’ve left out that Severine is a sex slave who has been exploited and abused by men all her life. For Bond to then have sex with her, in a rather vulnerable position, is a bit creepy. It’s clear she’s so used to being subservient to men that she automatically does the same when another strong male, in the shape of Bond, comes along. He means well but he’s just the next exploitative man in a row of many (and he does want to use her for his own means). It feels a far cry from the Bond who got into the shower with Vesper fully clothed just to comfort her.

    That’s how the film presents it as well: it’s not quite right to pick only some elements and say that is objectively how the film presents it.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,331
    I blame Mendes.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 218
    mtm wrote: »
    I take the scenes as they're presented.

    Bear in mind you are presenting the scenes here though, not the films. For example:
    SF. Bond has the invitation from Sévérine--if he survives the casino, meet at her yacht Chimera. She's shown in a silk robe waiting for him, champagne and two glasses on the table. She showers. Bond shows up, lets himself into the shower and she does not resist in the slightest what appears to be her plan all along. It makes sense to me she would want that both for herself (as a personal escape from the control she's under by the bad guys) and toward a final out from Silva altogether.

    You’ve left out that Severine is a sex slave who has been exploited and abused by men all her life. For Bond to then have sex with her, in a rather vulnerable position, is a bit creepy. It’s clear she’s so used to being subservient to men that she automatically does the same when another strong male, in the shape of Bond, comes along. He means well but he’s just the next exploitative man in a row of many (and he does want to use her for his own means). It feels a far cry from the Bond who got into the shower with Vesper fully clothed just to comfort her.

    That’s how the film presents it as well: it’s not quite right to pick only some elements and say that is objectively how the film presents it.

    It’s even worse when you then put in the rather pointless (both in universe, and in terms of the plot or story or characters forward) death, and the ‘waste of good scotch’. It’s a bit edgelord, frankly, and there are likely better ways to have dealt with that character at least. Her surviving would basically have been Bonds only win in that film, had it occurred. As foreshadowing for Ms death, it doesn’t work, and as ‘ooh look Silva is so Eeeeevillll’ it’s just clumsy and overegging.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,847
    mtm wrote: »
    I take the scenes as they're presented.

    Bear in mind you are presenting the scenes here though, not the films. For example:
    SF. Bond has the invitation from Sévérine--if he survives the casino, meet at her yacht Chimera. She's shown in a silk robe waiting for him, champagne and two glasses on the table. She showers. Bond shows up, lets himself into the shower and she does not resist in the slightest what appears to be her plan all along. It makes sense to me she would want that both for herself (as a personal escape from the control she's under by the bad guys) and toward a final out from Silva altogether.

    You’ve left out that Severine is a sex slave who has been exploited and abused by men all her life. For Bond to then have sex with her, in a rather vulnerable position, is a bit creepy. It’s clear she’s so used to being subservient to men that she automatically does the same when another strong male, in the shape of Bond, comes along. He means well but he’s just the next exploitative man in a row of many (and he does want to use her for his own means). It feels a far cry from the Bond who got into the shower with Vesper fully clothed just to comfort her.

    That’s how the film presents it as well: it’s not quite right to pick only some elements and say that is objectively how the film presents it.

    The tattoo indicating sex trafficking/human trafficking is an important point, to give understanding for her character. That she would take the risk on Bond and he fails is also key.

    I took the shower scene how I described it. On screen the character is shown in control of her actions, actively seeking pleasure, and hopeful to find a way out of her dire situation. Her tragic past and unfortunate end during the duel don't cancel that for me. Not her intent, but in a way she follows Vesper in seeking some last moments of pleasure before events overcome all.

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,617
    Never saw a problem with the Severine shower scene. Always assumed that Bond arrived, had a drink with her, did the deed then showered. Events can happen off-screen and often do. Surely Severine didn't stand there in front of two full champagne glasses looking disappointed, then teleport into a running shower. Stuff can happen in between. I read it that the shots are cut this way to make it look like Bond didn't show up, initially disappointing her and the viewer, rather than Bond just walking in and doing whatever he feels like.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,448
    Back in the day, it was a big deal that Bond would be only sleeping with one woman. After Randy Rog's portrayal where women he just met would be shagged, this was a major departure. This Dalton portrayal seemed to bleed into the Brosnan films as he wasn't as adventurous with the ladies as Moore and to a small extent Connery.

    Craig's Bond seemed to downplay the sex, or the use of it to advance Bond's work. Aside from Solange in CR I can't think of Bond sleeping with someone to get intel. His Bond was probably the least romantic and least sexual of the Bond's of yesterday. It will be interesting to see if the sex is played up again for the next fellow!
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,796
    thedove wrote: »
    Back in the day, it was a big deal that Bond would be only sleeping with one woman. After Randy Rog's portrayal where women he just met would be shagged, this was a major departure. This Dalton portrayal seemed to bleed into the Brosnan films as he wasn't as adventurous with the ladies as Moore and to a small extent Connery.

    Craig's Bond seemed to downplay the sex, or the use of it to advance Bond's work. Aside from Solange in CR I can't think of Bond sleeping with someone to get intel. His Bond was probably the least romantic and least sexual of the Bond's of yesterday. It will be interesting to see if the sex is played up again for the next fellow!

    He did it again in SPECTRE with Lucia Sciarra, we can safely say he did also slept with her.

    He also did with Strawberry Fields and with Severine.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    Yeah, but spies have slept with people for intel as long as there's been spies and intel, no?
  • edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
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  • Posts: 36
    Agreed, CrabKey. I think mtm's reading of the scene is a little patronising towards the character and denies her any kind of agency in that moment. Yes, she's undoubtedly experienced a traumatic past, but she can still make an informed choice and pursue her own pleasure, on her own terms - with the additional benefit that Bond also represents an escape from this lifestyle.

    I do find the "waste of a good Scotch" line absolutely gruesome. I know the intention behind that moment - Bond is presenting an impregnable front to Silva - but it plays just a little too ambiguously on screen.
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