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The Future of Sex in the Bond films

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  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,796
    Many people today are laughing at Bond not having too many babies or sex related diseases or AIDS and STDs, some people are even commenting that Bond should use condoms too 😅.

    Well, Fleming had an STD once, the reason why he's kicked out of school (I can't remember the school's name).

    To me, I think they should address this, do you think a man with a sexually transmitted disease could still able to function in daily life? Especially in Bond's situation, that he had sex with multiple women (especially in the Classic Era)?

    I may be speaking as a devil's advocate here, but it's a health talk though, with Bond's number of sex in every film, it's still a question that he's still not developing a disease or impregnating several women (sans Madeleine, of course), so as much as I'm not a fan of NTTD, that part was still a bit realistic in Bond's part, a response to Bond's sex life.

    It's like consuming alcohol or smoking, Bond's use of sex was also a bit unhealthy, it's not that it needs to be stopped fully, but just to reduce a bit.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 945
    I don’t need to hear about STDs in a Bond film. I want escapism, not a lecture. Must we attack Bond just to show we know his lifestyle isn’t actually a good thing?

    I will bring up what I call ‘the hat dilemma’: when the Bond films started, a well-dressed man wore a hat; Bond consequently wore a hat, and his throwing said hat onto a hook on a hatstand was part of the Bond tradition. Then President Kennedy’s dislike of hats made hats unfashionable. What was the Bond franchise to do?

    They simply stopped him wearing hats as a default. They did not have a younger, cooler character mock him for wearing hats and point out that they were outdated, they didn’t make a plot-point out of it or make it a joke. If it feels natural for Bond to have sex with someone in the script, then okay, if not then don’t write it in.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,796
    sandbagger1 wrote: »
    I don’t need to hear about STDs in a Bond film. I want escapism, not a lecture. Must we attack Bond just to show we know his lifestyle isn’t actually a good thing?

    I will bring up what I call ‘the hat dilemma’: when the Bond films started, a well-dressed man wore a hat; Bond consequently wore a hat, and his throwing said hat onto a hook on a hatstand was part of the Bond tradition. Then President Kennedy’s dislike of hats made hats unfashionable. What was the Bond franchise to do?

    They simply stopped him wearing hats as a default. They did not have a younger, cooler character mock him for wearing hats and point out that they were outdated, they didn’t make a plot-point out of it or make it a joke. If it feels natural for Bond to have sex with someone in the script, then okay, if not then don’t write it in.

    Then I may need to repeat this issue again, so you're not against of Bond smoking again, right?

    Many people didn't liked it because it's unhealthy for Bond to do and didn't looked cool too, but as you said here, it's escapism, not a lecture.

    Then that's the same as sex, sorry 😁✌️
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,154
    As DarthDimi said, Bond doesn't have to reflect the way we live or conduct ourselves. I don't drink or smoke and I've always practiced safe sex. But I wouldn't bat an eyelid if Bond smoked, I've never spared a thought for his drinking and I'm not looking for socio-sexual responsibility as a key component of his character. I like the more grounded, realistic Bond films of the early Craig era, but if I wanted verite I'd be watching Ken Loach.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 945
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    sandbagger1 wrote: »
    I don’t need to hear about STDs in a Bond film. I want escapism, not a lecture. Must we attack Bond just to show we know his lifestyle isn’t actually a good thing?

    I will bring up what I call ‘the hat dilemma’: when the Bond films started, a well-dressed man wore a hat; Bond consequently wore a hat, and his throwing said hat onto a hook on a hatstand was part of the Bond tradition. Then President Kennedy’s dislike of hats made hats unfashionable. What was the Bond franchise to do?

    They simply stopped him wearing hats as a default. They did not have a younger, cooler character mock him for wearing hats and point out that they were outdated, they didn’t make a plot-point out of it or make it a joke. If it feels natural for Bond to have sex with someone in the script, then okay, if not then don’t write it in.

    Then I may need to repeat this issue again, so you're not against of Bond smoking again, right?

    Many people didn't liked it because it's unhealthy for Bond to do and didn't looked cool too, but as you said here, it's escapism, not a lecture.

    Then that's the same as sex, sorry 😁✌️
    I’m fine with Bond smoking. I watch noir, everyone smokes in those films!
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,984
    I'm all for the idea of returning Bond to his roots and character traits through escapism; the reality of his actions doesn't even come into my mind. I'd dig seeing Bond, who still loves smoking, in a world that's mostly abandoned it. Being a spy certainly isn't conducive to one's health but he still cuts down dozens of bad guys per film. Alcohol is terrible for your health yet he's downing the drink and even the pills in excess in a film like SF.

    It's not even like you need some thorough explanation for it - people still smoke and Bond could be one of those types. He's not looking to fit in, he is who he is.

    I personally think the still-normalized way people drink to the point of no return is ridiculous but it doesn't affect my enjoyability of the films when Bond does it.
  • jobojobo
    edited June 2023 Posts: 7,507
    I feel like some people react way too emotionaly. To point out that some scenes in the earlier films especially are unpleasant and problematic is not to "attack James Bond". Calm down.

    And there are a lot of strawmen around. Nobody has been advocating any censorships or "mocking" of the franchise.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,053
    Bond has developed with the times on his "sliding time scale". Bond always was both smart and - let's face it - dying to get recognition from his surroundings, to "belong" to the upper class or at least be accepted by them.

    Today's Bond wouldn't smoke any more for both of these reasons. Smoking stinks, everyone knows it's likely to kill you, and as they have been saying for the last fifty years, kissing a smoker tastes like licking out an ashtray. No, smoking doesn't fit into Bond's personality in the 21st century, and that's why I hope it's gone for good.

    I'm afraid drinking is still going strong in social acceptance, if you're not imbibing cheap booze from a discount store. But ordering cocktails at a fancy bar is still something that most people admire, since most have never tried or found it too expensive. (Full disclosure: I myself certainly drink more than my doctor would wish me to....though it's been ages since I went to a bar.)

    As for having sex with attractive women all the time, I suppose most (male?) members of the audience will continue to like Bond for that, since they wish they'd be in his position which most of us clearly are. But this entire thread shows that a lot of us feel uneasy about the scenes where this comes out as unvoluntary on the part of the woman. So I expect this to persist, but minus that last element.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited June 2023 Posts: 3,796
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Bond has developed with the times on his "sliding time scale". Bond always was both smart and - let's face it - dying to get recognition from his surroundings, to "belong" to the upper class or at least be accepted by them.

    Today's Bond wouldn't smoke any more for both of these reasons. Smoking stinks, everyone knows it's likely to kill you, and as they have been saying for the last fifty years, kissing a smoker tastes like licking out an ashtray. No, smoking doesn't fit into Bond's personality in the 21st century, and that's why I hope it's gone for good.

    I'm afraid drinking is still going strong in social acceptance, if you're not imbibing cheap booze from a discount store. But ordering cocktails at a fancy bar is still something that most people admire, since most have never tried or found it too expensive. (Full disclosure: I myself certainly drink more than my doctor would wish me to....though it's been ages since I went to a bar.)

    As for having sex with attractive women all the time, I suppose most (male?) members of the audience will continue to like Bond for that, since they wish they'd be in his position which most of us clearly are. But this entire thread shows that a lot of us feel uneasy about the scenes where this comes out as unvoluntary on the part of the woman. So I expect this to persist, but minus that last element.

    But sex is also getting close to the red line, with like what I've said, it's not just in this thread, but the general public thinks that the Bond films should reduce the sex parts, some were even making fun of Bond and advising him to wear condoms, or thinking he may have STDs or AIDS or whatsoever, or he may have to answer those parental support papers for he possibly impregnated those women.

    Sex in the Bond films is a very hot issue these days, a controversial one, especially in the times of censorship and advocates about safe sex.

    If we're considering real life events, then Bond having sexually transmitted diseases is very possible and likely to happen, even Fleming himself had those (gonorrhea?).

    And that wouldn't be good if we're considering good health and coolness, as I've observed the general public these days, sex is almost a dirty thing, especially in Bond's case which he also have sex with women younger than him, those large age gaps in Bond films.

    But like everyone's saying here, that's Bond, he does dirty things because that's how he is, he smokes, he drinks, he have sex.

    If everything's going to get censored, then we're stripping away who Bond really is.

    He's not clean, everyone in the Earth knows that, that's why some love the 60's Bond films, because they see Bond in that way.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,331
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Bond has developed with the times on his "sliding time scale". Bond always was both smart and - let's face it - dying to get recognition from his surroundings, to "belong" to the upper class or at least be accepted by them.

    Today's Bond wouldn't smoke any more for both of these reasons. Smoking stinks, everyone knows it's likely to kill you, and as they have been saying for the last fifty years, kissing a smoker tastes like licking out an ashtray. No, smoking doesn't fit into Bond's personality in the 21st century, and that's why I hope it's gone for good.

    I'm afraid drinking is still going strong in social acceptance, if you're not imbibing cheap booze from a discount store. But ordering cocktails at a fancy bar is still something that most people admire, since most have never tried or found it too expensive. (Full disclosure: I myself certainly drink more than my doctor would wish me to....though it's been ages since I went to a bar.)

    As for having sex with attractive women all the time, I suppose most (male?) members of the audience will continue to like Bond for that, since they wish they'd be in his position which most of us clearly are. But this entire thread shows that a lot of us feel uneasy about the scenes where this comes out as unvoluntary on the part of the woman. So I expect this to persist, but minus that last element.

    But sex is also getting close to the red line, with like what I've said, it's not just in this thread, but the general public thinks that the Bond films should reduce the sex parts, some were even making fun of Bond and advising him to wear condoms, or thinking he may have STDs or AIDS or whatsoever, or he may have to answer those parental support papers for he possibly impregnated those women.

    Sex in the Bond films is a very hot issue these days, a controversial one, especially in the times of censorship and advocates about safe sex.

    If we're considering real life events, then Bond having sexually transmitted diseases is very possible and likely to happen, even Fleming himself had those (gonorrhea?).

    And that wouldn't be good if we're considering good health and coolness, as I've observed the general public these days, sex is almost a dirty thing, especially in Bond's case which he also have sex with women younger than him, those large age gaps in Bond films.

    But like everyone's saying here, that's Bond, he does dirty things because that's how he is, he smokes, he drinks, he have sex.

    If everything's going to get censored, then we're stripping away who Bond really is.

    He's not clean, everyone in the Earth knows that, that's why some love the 60's Bond films, because they see Bond in that way.

    I think they should always show Bond's penis, just so The Daily Mail can be sure he is wearing a condom in all encounters! J/K

    Bond is escapism. I'm assuming it's the tabloids who are talking about safe sex and STDs as an overall critique of Bond?!? I don't want a scene like that in a Bond film.

    Here's where we are, societally (at least in the US and probably in the UK and western Europe): drinking alcohol is still cool, smoking is not cool, sex with consent is cool.

    And that's what Bond should do, or not do.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,147
    If I have to live in a world without escapism, or a few hours from my day to day reality, then why am I going to the cinema?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2023 Posts: 16,492
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Bond has developed with the times on his "sliding time scale". Bond always was both smart and - let's face it - dying to get recognition from his surroundings, to "belong" to the upper class or at least be accepted by them.

    Today's Bond wouldn't smoke any more for both of these reasons. Smoking stinks, everyone knows it's likely to kill you, and as they have been saying for the last fifty years, kissing a smoker tastes like licking out an ashtray. No, smoking doesn't fit into Bond's personality in the 21st century, and that's why I hope it's gone for good.

    I'm afraid drinking is still going strong in social acceptance, if you're not imbibing cheap booze from a discount store. But ordering cocktails at a fancy bar is still something that most people admire, since most have never tried or found it too expensive. (Full disclosure: I myself certainly drink more than my doctor would wish me to....though it's been ages since I went to a bar.)

    As for having sex with attractive women all the time, I suppose most (male?) members of the audience will continue to like Bond for that, since they wish they'd be in his position which most of us clearly are. But this entire thread shows that a lot of us feel uneasy about the scenes where this comes out as unvoluntary on the part of the woman. So I expect this to persist, but minus that last element.

    But sex is also getting close to the red line, with like what I've said, it's not just in this thread, but the general public thinks that the Bond films should reduce the sex parts, some were even making fun of Bond and advising him to wear condoms, or thinking he may have STDs or AIDS or whatsoever, or he may have to answer those parental support papers for he possibly impregnated those women.

    Is this actually true though? Where does that happen? I'm a Bond fan and read lots of coverage about it, and I don't recall that being a conversation which happens much. I think folks are too quick to leap to these accusations like calling people 'easily offended' and the like, and imagining that there's some sort of moral crusade trying to restrict their actions and characterising their actions as something to fight against. I suspect most people are just fine with the amount of women Bond has been with in the last few films. In Spectre it's exactly the same amount he had in a film nearly 20 years before it (and more than in GoldenEye too). As jobo says, this feels like a bit of a strawman.
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Bond has developed with the times on his "sliding time scale". Bond always was both smart and - let's face it - dying to get recognition from his surroundings, to "belong" to the upper class or at least be accepted by them.

    Today's Bond wouldn't smoke any more for both of these reasons. Smoking stinks, everyone knows it's likely to kill you, and as they have been saying for the last fifty years, kissing a smoker tastes like licking out an ashtray. No, smoking doesn't fit into Bond's personality in the 21st century, and that's why I hope it's gone for good.


    Yep, that's an entirely sensible take on it. Bond puffing on cigarettes would be dumb for a physically active secret agent and would promote smoking, there's no point in pretending it wouldn't. He makes things look cool because he is cool. That's why marketers pay megabucks to have him associated with their products: anecdotal tales of 'well I'm not stupid so I don't do everything Bond does' don't really convince me that these companies spending literally millions on 007 and market research and customer psychology have it all wrong.
    Why do folks actually want to see him smoke? What does it add? If any part of your mind is saying 'he'd look cool doing it', then there's the argument for not doing it. Personally I think he'd look a bit of a desperate loser doing it nowadays, and it would damage his standing as a super smooth aspirational figure. Imagine him having to sneak out the fire escape of the casino and have a puff out there in the rain.
    I'm not sure there's a character in pop culture who has been more mimicked and seen as a style icon than Bond, is there? And that doesn't mean that people go out and kill Russians because of him: people aren't as lacking in nuance as some arguments on forums would have you believe.
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I'm afraid drinking is still going strong in social acceptance, if you're not imbibing cheap booze from a discount store. But ordering cocktails at a fancy bar is still something that most people admire, since most have never tried or found it too expensive. (Full disclosure: I myself certainly drink more than my doctor would wish me to....though it's been ages since I went to a bar.)

    As for having sex with attractive women all the time, I suppose most (male?) members of the audience will continue to like Bond for that, since they wish they'd be in his position which most of us clearly are. But this entire thread shows that a lot of us feel uneasy about the scenes where this comes out as unvoluntary on the part of the woman. So I expect this to persist, but minus that last element.

    Again, well said. Not all of these are the same: smoking is not the same as drinking, downing pints is not the same as sipping on expensive cocktails. Consensual sex is not the same as taking advantage of a woman, I can't actually imagine wanting to see Bond do that last one, so I'm not sure why anyone would argue that it would be good to see it.
    That doesn't mean I want to see him be a goody two shoes: part of the enjoyment of watching Bond is to live vicariously through him: he does the things we wish we could do consequence-free. So he can break various laws, destroy traffic cameras, talk smart to people in power and always have something great and witty to say as comebacks, have great sex with no strings etc. But these are all victimless crimes, and just because I'm happy to see him be something of the antihero it doesn't mean I want to see him be immoral, murdering children, raping women, burning down old peoples' homes etc. He doesn't have carte blanche and there is a line beyond which he would lose the audience as being an aspirational fantasy figure to one where he would become a figure we hate.
    I'm not 'one of the easily offended' I just happen to know what lines I want to see him step over and which ones I need him to stay behind.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 693
    How can we say for sure Bond hasn't worn a condom with every woman he's been with?
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    edited June 2023 Posts: 1,083
    "Durex-pect me to talk, Goldfinger?"
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,053
    Good points. Though I'd be surprised if anyone involved had thought of contraception.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,483
    My head canon has always been that Bond keeps condoms on him at all times. Not like it’s hard to transport!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,331
    George_Kaplan wrote: »
    How can we say for sure Bond hasn't worn a condom with every woman he's been with?

    Well, clearly not with Madeleine!
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited June 2023 Posts: 693
    echo wrote: »
    George_Kaplan wrote: »
    How can we say for sure Bond hasn't worn a condom with every woman he's been with?

    Well, clearly not with Madeleine!

    Damn how did I forget that? Then again, they only have a 98% success rate.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    echo wrote: »
    Well, clearly not with Madeleine!
    Unless it split with the ferocity of their, er, ardour.

  • GerardGerard
    Posts: 6,003
    Or Kissy in the novels. Or Patricia, if The Moneypenny Diaries is to be believed.
  • mattjoesmattjoes THE MOONRAKER TAPES ARE LOST THE MOONRAKER TAPES ARE LOST
    Posts: 7,040
    FoxRox wrote: »
    My head canon has always been that Bond keeps condoms on him at all times. Not like it’s hard to transport!

    I read that as "my head condom has always been..."

    I don't know what was going through my head.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 945
    jobo wrote: »
    I feel like some people react way too emotionaly. To point out that some scenes in the earlier films especially are unpleasant and problematic is not to "attack James Bond". Calm down.
    It’s very difficult to give anybody the benefit of the doubt after they have said “calm down” on an internet message board. It is used almost exclusively on the internet to patronise and troll. Why go this route? It doesn’t help the conversation.
    To point out that some scenes in the earlier films especially are unpleasant and problematic is not to "attack James Bond"
    I was not criticising people here who were pointing out things they felt problematic, I think it’s perfectly valid to say you find this scene or that scene an issue for you. SIS_HQ said he wanted the negative consequences of Bond’s sleeping around addressed on film, I was saying it’s something I wouldn’t want to see. ‘Lampshading’ issues with characters, which is they way these things often go, is something I find a bit irritating - I just don’t see the appeal of criticising the protagonist on screen. I’d rather they phased out the behaviour if they object to it. That’s just my view on what I’d like to see, not a criticism of any other user here for having a view different to mine.
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
    deleted
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,216
    Bond films play in a world where few deeds ever have significant consequences. Bond doesn't suffer from PTSD after shooting down dozens of bad guys. He breaks tons of traffic laws and never harms an innocent man. He sleeps with tons of women and never has to worry about STDs or unwanted pregnancies. That's part of the escapist fun these films offer. The real world, by contrast, is one in which eating spicy food can give you explosive diarrhea. In the real world, punching another man can break your wrist. In the real world, a bad day at work can keep you awake at night. We want to escape that world when we watch a Bond film. We want to live the fantasy. Why then pretend that we should apply real-world logic to the Bond films in general and to their depiction of sex specifically?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Bond films play in a world where few deeds ever have significant consequences. Bond doesn't suffer from PTSD after shooting down dozens of bad guys. He breaks tons of traffic laws and never harms an innocent man. He sleeps with tons of women and never has to worry about STDs or unwanted pregnancies. That's part of the escapist fun these films offer. The real world, by contrast, is one in which eating spicy food can give you explosive diarrhea. In the real world, punching another man can break your wrist. In the real world, a bad day at work can keep you awake at night. We want to escape that world when we watch a Bond film. We want to live the fantasy. Why then pretend that we should apply real-world logic to the Bond films in general and to their depiction of sex specifically?

    I must absolutely agree with you in no small part because DAF was my first exposure to Bond at age 11, and it imprinted upon me that Bond is fantasy & fun & getting cuddles from cute girls & beating bad the guys. My Mom had to take me to the movie (I don't think she knew what she was taking me to, it was my request based on a TV commercial that made it look sort of science fictiony), and afterward she felt she had to explain that real people didn't act like this and I was all like, yeah Mom, it's just a movie!
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
    deleted

  • mattjoesmattjoes THE MOONRAKER TAPES ARE LOST THE MOONRAKER TAPES ARE LOST
    edited June 2023 Posts: 7,040
    For me, it's the one where Rosika Miklos and Lenkin Peter Porteous the gas technician almost get it on. Such an unexpected display of powerful eroticism. Lenkin's Porteous' The technician's disbelief is palpable as a seductive Miklos approaches him, probably after years of hoping she would play with his pipeline. Oh, and his penis, too. Anyway, the blinking panel lights only add to the frenetic passion that unfolds between them. And then, just as quickly as it started, their romantic encounter comes (?) to an end, never to be discussed. Yes, for a few precious moments, they explored each other's bodies, but deep down, they are dedicated professionals, and the gas industry in Cold War Bratislava would not allow them to have a relationship.

    And neither, of course, would Mrs. Lenkin Porteous gas technician.
  • CrabKeyCrabKey
    edited April 18 Posts: 2,006
    deleted
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    edited June 2023 Posts: 12,483
    It's simple and short, but Honey emerging from the water in DN is probably my pick for sexiest moment. Would have been even sexier if it was more in line with the novel version! The part in FRWL when Bond catches Tania in the nude running to her bed, plus the ensuing banter and sex between them, is high up there, too.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Plenty of chat on this thread about getting it wrong, but what about getting it right? Which scene from a Bond film is the sexiest?
    FoxRox wrote: »
    It's simple and short, but Honey emerging from the water in DN is probably my pick for sexiest moment. Would have been even sexier if it was more in line with the novel version! The part in FRWL when Bond catches Tania in the nude running to her bed, plus the ensuing banter and sex between them, is high up there, too.

    Yeah, there's a reason that FRWL scene is apparently still the one they go to in screentests to gauge a potential actor's sex appeal. It's probably the best.
    I've mentioned the QoS scene in the hotel before.
    Moore and Manuela in Moonraker is pretty sexy, although the cut to the hectic street carnival just as he opens her dress always makes me laugh.
    And then maybe I'm telling on myself too much here, but Paloma in that bar in Havana makes me want to throw my life away and just follow Ana de Armas wherever she goes...
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