"You missed Mister Bond!"..."Did I?"...The Missed Opportunities of Never Say Never Again

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  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    I think they should have embraced the fact that they'd already established Quantum and have Spectre go to war with them, rather than just have Quantum evaporate. You'd probably have needed another film after Spectre and before NTTD for that though.

    Turning Quantum into Spectre was a bit shoddy, that said I didn't minded too much because I always understood that Quantum was a stand-in for Spectre due to legal restrictions. But it could have and should have been better explained and developed.

    I said it in the QOS thread: I would love to read a series of graphic novels showing Bond's missions set between the events of QOS and SF/SP. Not sure if it's a missed opportunity or merely an idea for fanfic, but there you go.

    It was pretty clear that Quantum was a stand-in for SPECTRE, with colors (White, Greene, Slate) instead of numbers. Pretty clearly--and stay with me here--these colors were code names.

    I think it would have been exciting to see White take over in a coup and rename the whole organization SPECTRE...and then reveal his real name as Blofeld. It would have been logical, believable, and dramatic because we would have watched it take place over three films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    I think they should have embraced the fact that they'd already established Quantum and have Spectre go to war with them, rather than just have Quantum evaporate. You'd probably have needed another film after Spectre and before NTTD for that though.

    Turning Quantum into Spectre was a bit shoddy, that said I didn't minded too much because I always understood that Quantum was a stand-in for Spectre due to legal restrictions. But it could have and should have been better explained and developed.

    I said it in the QOS thread: I would love to read a series of graphic novels showing Bond's missions set between the events of QOS and SF/SP. Not sure if it's a missed opportunity or merely an idea for fanfic, but there you go.

    Yeah I think there could be fun stories in there, you're right.
    Mallory wrote: »
    EoN should’ve sat on Spectre and used them for the next Bond, and have them as a permanent thread throughout their tenure, and continued with Quantum for Craig’s.

    I don't think there's much point in deferred pleasure: if you've got a great idea now, do it now. There's no point in waiting ten years.
  • edited September 2023 Posts: 4,168
    While I don't think Blofeld was handled all that well in SP, I'm glad they didn't create some sort of plot twist where Mr. White turned out to be that same character. To me he always felt like the 'field guy' - the one doing the dirty work on the ground in a similar way to Largo in TB - not the actual puppet master of the whole thing. I think a Blofeld who had previously been operating in the shadows was needed, and what happens with White is actually one of the things I like about SP.

    I do think they could have expanded upon the idea that Quantum was being taken over by SPECTRE though. I think running with that subplot would have been impactful than the idea that Bond and Blofeld knew each other as children. It certainly would have given the impression that Bond is essentially walking into this very dangerous civil war between warring factions of SPECTRE.
  • Posts: 2,165
    Is it ever actually explained how Quantum became Spectre? In the film? They have a sorta blink and youll miss it family tree in the shape of an octopus for a few seconds, but thats about it.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Quantum wasn't taken over by Spectre, and it didn't become Spectre. It was part of Spectre.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Mallory wrote: »
    EoN should’ve sat on Spectre and used them for the next Bond, and have them as a permanent thread throughout their tenure, and continued with Quantum for Craig’s.

    Maybe. But I think it made sense to beat the iron while it's hot, although they rushed things. They can correct the mistakes for the next Bond, which might be why they decided to go for it with Craig, if killing Bond was the end game.
    echo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve seen more than one suggest Mr. White should have been the Blofeld of Craig’s era, and I’m inclined to agree. The #1 issue of Craig’s tenure is bringing back Blofeld and SPECTRE just because they could, and doing it very forcefully. I would have liked to see Quantum just be the big bad organization, or just a couple more standalones, instead of the direction SP put things on. I give NTTD a lot of credit though for being as good as it is having to be a direct sequel to that.

    I think they should have embraced the fact that they'd already established Quantum and have Spectre go to war with them, rather than just have Quantum evaporate. You'd probably have needed another film after Spectre and before NTTD for that though.

    Turning Quantum into Spectre was a bit shoddy, that said I didn't minded too much because I always understood that Quantum was a stand-in for Spectre due to legal restrictions. But it could have and should have been better explained and developed.

    I said it in the QOS thread: I would love to read a series of graphic novels showing Bond's missions set between the events of QOS and SF/SP. Not sure if it's a missed opportunity or merely an idea for fanfic, but there you go.

    It was pretty clear that Quantum was a stand-in for SPECTRE, with colors (White, Greene, Slate) instead of numbers. Pretty clearly--and stay with me here--these colors were code names.

    I think it would have been exciting to see White take over in a coup and rename the whole organization SPECTRE...and then reveal his real name as Blofeld. It would have been logical, believable, and dramatic because we would have watched it take place over three films.

    Yeah I think there was something of that, at least for CR/QOS. I wished they had developed it more. I'm fairly surprised they didn't come off with a Mr Blue, or Signor Azzuro or de Bleuville for Blofeld.
    007HallY wrote: »
    While I don't think Blofeld was handled all that well in SP, I'm glad they didn't create some sort of plot twist where Mr. White turned out to be that same character. To me he always felt like the 'field guy' - the one doing the dirty work on the ground in a similar way to Largo in TB - not the actual puppet master of the whole thing. I think a Blofeld who had previously been operating in the shadows was needed, and what happens with White is actually one of the things I like about SP.

    I do think they could have expanded upon the idea that Quantum was being taken over by SPECTRE though. I think running with that subplot would have been impactful than the idea that Bond and Blofeld knew each other as children. It certainly would have given the impression that Bond is essentially walking into this very dangerous civil war between warring factions of SPECTRE.

    I agree, for me Mr White is a field commander.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited September 2023 Posts: 13,816
    Remembering Mr. Slate. And Mr. Silva. As colourful.

  • Posts: 15,125
    Remembering Mr. Slate. And Mr. Silva. As colourful.

    Them too.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,152
    peter wrote: »
    Lol; I think it would have taken a different path... No foster brother, no Madeleine...
    Even better: if Marc Forster hadn't cut the final scene in QOS where Bond killed Guy Haines and Mr. White, the whole of the remaining Craig era would've had to have happened differently. They filmed two different versions of it, but Forster said he cut it to give EON 'choices' in the way they wanted to go in future. That one decision proved to be ridiculously pivotal.
  • Posts: 1,998
    Venutius wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Lol; I think it would have taken a different path... No foster brother, no Madeleine...
    Even better: if Marc Forster hadn't cut the final scene in QOS where Bond killed Guy Haines and Mr. White, the whole of the remaining Craig era would've had to have happened differently. They filmed two different versions of it, but Forster said he cut it to give EON 'choices' in the way they wanted to go in future. That one decision proved to be ridiculously pivotal.

    I've always been curious why the writers chose Guy Haines as a name. They would certainly have been familiar with Hitchcock's Strangers on a Train.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    https://www.cbr.com/john-rhys-davies-making-a-comic/

    Might be a way to find out what happened to General Pushkin. It’s a missed opportunity that JRD didn’t come back for LTK or GE.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    Yes I believe both him and Jerome Krabbe were on record saying they were open for a return. A shame we never got to see it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I believe both him and Jerome Krabbe were on record saying they were open for a return. A shame we never got to see it.

    Yes. Instead, of unique characters like them, EON decided to bring back Sheriff JW Pepper :( :((
  • Posts: 1,998
    I feel we got three JW Pepper films. The doofus sheriff in DAF goes on to be JW in the two following films. Clearly someone liked that stereotype.
  • CrabKey wrote: »
    I feel we got three JW Pepper films. The doofus sheriff in DAF goes on to be JW in the two following films. Clearly someone liked that stereotype.

    Four if you count the officer in AVTAK.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,638
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I feel we got three JW Pepper films. The doofus sheriff in DAF goes on to be JW in the two following films. Clearly someone liked that stereotype.

    Four if you count the officer in AVTAK.

    Yes, I suppose they should have gotten Clifton James as Sheriff JW Pepper back in AVTAK.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    We are dealing with 2 stereotypes here.

    The Southern Sheriff who is racist and bumbling. He is a buffoon and the screenwriter made him the butt of jokes.

    The DAF and VTAK sheriff is a bumbling cop. He is worn down and broken down and is bumbling.

    Lots of the movies of the 70's and 80's showcased these characters and Bond was one of them.

    I am not sure that you can make a clear case that they are all one in the same.

    I think Pepper and Jaws were examples of the producers doing fan service and putting the character back in the next film. Jaws required a script change to facilitate. We can argue the merits of both. I think they ruined a good thing with Jaws and they jammed Pepper into a film that really didn't need him as a character.
  • Posts: 15,125
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I believe both him and Jerome Krabbe were on record saying they were open for a return. A shame we never got to see it.

    That would have been nice: a recurring adversary during the Dalton era. With a less comedic Koskov. I always thought they had the perfect actor for their villain, but the worst approach. Imagine Krabbe playing Koskov the way he played Handel a few years later in Farinelli.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited September 2023 Posts: 16,427
    I do kind of wonder how much inspiration Bond films like DAF and LALD were for the more comedic American action cinema of the late 70s. Certainly you look at Connery's easygoing comedic style in DAF and even more blatantly, Sheriff JW Pepper, and it's not a very long throw to Smokey And The Bandit in '77.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    mtm wrote: »
    I do kind of wonder how much inspiration Bond films like DAF and LALD were for the more comedic American action cinema of the late 70s. Certainly you look at Connery's easygoing comedic style in DAF and even more blatantly, Sheriff JW Pepper, and it's not a very long throw to Smokey And The Bandit in '77.

    Yes, that's very interesting in that the general thinking is that Bond followed trends (too much) in the 1970s.

    Is this an example where '70s Bond started a trend?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited September 2023 Posts: 3,789
    echo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    I do kind of wonder how much inspiration Bond films like DAF and LALD were for the more comedic American action cinema of the late 70s. Certainly you look at Connery's easygoing comedic style in DAF and even more blatantly, Sheriff JW Pepper, and it's not a very long throw to Smokey And The Bandit in '77.

    Yes, that's very interesting in that the general thinking is that Bond followed trends (too much) in the 1970s.

    Is this an example where '70s Bond started a trend?

    Yes, it is.

    You have the 70's bleak and dark humor? Check!
    You have a popular trend of the Moon Landing (it's played up in the film), check.
  • Posts: 1,998
    The sheriff stereotype may well have been influenced by Cool Hand Luke, (1967). I never cared for Bond films referencing other films such as Star Wars, Close Encounters, etc. I prefer Bond be the trend setter.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited October 2023 Posts: 5,436
    I am inspired by @Benny and his incredible thread about BTS of the different film adventures. I figured that we could take the same approach with this thread and each week we have a discussion about any missed opportunities about a specific adventure. Some weeks might have more to discuss than others.

    First up Doctor No the first film adventure. The producers had to be economical when bringing this film to the big screen. They ended up with some great casting and of course made the great decision to have Sean Connery be their hero. BUT were there missed opportunities? We know that a crab sequence was attempted but didn't translate to the screen. Common feedback of the movie says they would have liked more of Bond in the pipes on the island. Does anyone wish we got a Connery vs Giant Squid battle? Is there something that should have been in the film? What would you do different with this film?

    What are the missed opportunities of Doctor No?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,306
    My missed opportunity is at the very beginning.

    I wish we had gotten a little bit more of Strangways, who was in the novel LALD, or perhaps a better actor.

    I feel a lot more for his secretary, which could be down to the melodramatic music and screaming, than I do for him.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,427
    The obstacle source is a big missed opportunity and one which a future Bond film really should pick up- it would work nowadays very well.

    Less of a missed opportunity and more something they just hadn't figured out yet, is Bond's character in this one.. he's just a bit too much of a dick! It's kind of amazing how well they got that pinned down for the next movie and made him way more likeable.
  • Posts: 4,168
    mtm wrote: »
    The obstacle source is a big missed opportunity and one which a future Bond film really should pick up- it would work nowadays very well.

    Less of a missed opportunity and more something they just hadn't figured out yet, is Bond's character in this one.. he's just a bit too much of a dick! It's kind of amazing how well they got that pinned down for the next movie and made him way more likeable.

    The obstacle course is very much a missed opportunity. I do agree that Bond is kinda off in this one too. I think he’s much too wry and in control throughout the whole film, which is quite jarring when you consider the book (which I’ve always thought is about Bond slowly gaining his physical ability/confidence after his ordeal in FRWL. Him beating the obstacle course completes that circle I suppose).

    Maybe trying to evoke that side of the literary Bond is a missed opportunity in DN - that sense of him being a bit more unsure about the situation he finds himself in. I think it was brought out much better in Connery’s subsequent Bond films.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,436
    Never thought of the characterization of Bond and the fact he's a dick. Do we mean too arrogant? Or too much of a confident prick? He does seem to order people around with the terrible "fetch my shoes" being a cringey type line of dialogue.

    The obstacle course is something that could definitely be brought out and fleshed out for a future film adventure. A villain that is interested in the lengths of pain that can be inflicted on another human is very interesting. A wonder that it hasn't be used to this point at all. I love the sound effects when he's in that piping. The steam coming off the metal, it was done so well.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,168
    thedove wrote: »
    Never thought of the characterization of Bond and the fact he's a dick. Do we mean too arrogant? Or too much of a confident prick? He does seem to order people around with the terrible "fetch my shoes" being a cringey type line of dialogue.

    The obstacle course is something that could definitely be brought out and fleshed out for a future film adventure. A villain that is interested in the lengths of pain that can be inflicted on another human is very interesting. A wonder that it hasn't be used to this point at all. I love the sound effects when he's in that piping. The steam coming off the metal, it was done so well.

    I guess for me it’s that Connery’s Bond doesn’t really put a foot wrong throughout the entire film. Even when Mr. Jones is hired to take him out he easily figures out what’s happening and manipulates the situation. Same with Dent.

    Connery’s performance sells it, and I’m not saying Bond shouldn’t be in control, but I think an important aspect of the character is that he often doesn’t know how each situation is going to play out. You often have moments in the novels and later films where Bond will, say, get himself into a tricky spot and have to find some way of using what’s around him to get out of it. He sometimes makes questionable decisions or even outright mistakes when getting into them, but it’s his ability to think on his feet that saves him. He’s not a Jack Reacher type who always knows well in advance how each situation will pan out even if it seems he’s at a disadvantage. I feel in DN’s first half Bond seems a bit too in control and confident, planning each situation in advance, and it takes away some of the tension you find in the novel where Doctor No is almost this powerful but invisible presence trying to kill him at every turn.

    That’s kinda why the obstacle course could have been cool as well. It would have genuinely put Bond in a perilous situation and the idea of him using his wits to get out of it would have been emphasised even more. It is kinda there in the film (I think Connery’s Bond is at his most human towards the end of the film) but I feel FRWL is better in this area in the sense that Bond is not aware of SPECTRE’s involvement, he seems a bit uneasy about walking into a trap, and by the end has to get himself out of it with how he defeats Grant/the other agents.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited October 2023 Posts: 16,427
    thedove wrote: »
    Never thought of the characterization of Bond and the fact he's a dick. Do we mean too arrogant? Or too much of a confident prick? He does seem to order people around with the terrible "fetch my shoes" being a cringey type line of dialogue.

    Yeah he's rather humourless and very cold when he arrives at the embassy, dealing with the photographer etc. he orders people around a lot and is just kind of hard to like. Probably on the side of being arrogant more than just self-confident, as he is in later films, yeah. He also gets Quarrel killed with his mad plan and doesn't seem to show any sort of regret, plus I can never quite over him popping up out of the water in the river scene and murdering that guard despite not really needing to.
    But come FRWL they've sorted all that out and got his character working perfectly.

    I kind of feel it's hard to accuse them of missing opportunities in DN too much because they very clearly hadn't figured it all out yet, although I know the thread is a bit more light-hearted than that! :) I guess I'd like to see it more in the fashion of later Bond movies (I suppose a big missed opportunity is not just hiring John Barry to do the whole thing right then and there) but I can't dislike it on its own terms. It's just not a favourite of mine as I prefer where the series went after this.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,168
    I will say another missed opportunity is the fact they didn’t more faithfully adapt the exchange when Quarrel is killed. In the book Bond begins to walk towards his body, the henchman barks at him, and Bond in turn insists on going to see ‘the man [they] just murdered’, even privately apologising to Quarrel.

    In the film it just comes off as a bit weird with Bond randomly turning around when being held at gun point. The scene itself isn’t well shot in my opinion (it’s a bit too dark and the ‘dragon’ is simply a truck with a badly painted set of eyes/mouth). I think Connery was perfectly capable of such a moment and it would have humanised Bond a bit more.
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