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The theories of Bond films! Why is Holly Goodhead so antagonistic to Bond for most of MR?

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  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    007HallY wrote: »
    Mainly because the fall of the Soviet Union took place between ‘88-91. I’m not a historian but in ‘86 the Soviet Union still had its chemical and nuclear weaponry (Gorbachev had gotten in the year prior and from my understanding his plan was to slowly phase out a lot of this stuff. I guess it makes sense that it takes place in ‘86 as relations between the Russians, US, and UK are still frosty at this time and Bond would be more likely to be sent on such a mission to get rid of a shadowy, possibly even rogue Russian chemical facility).

    Basically it makes the most sense contextually. Any later and it’s unlikely historically. Any earlier and it doesn’t quite work with Brosnan Bond’s age. There’s actually a decent amount of consideration there - save for Alec’s age of course!

    Oh forgot that one as well: the USSR was not falling apart quite yet.
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    @Ludovico, except for your no. 7, you make too much sense for this thread ;) . I never questioned nor worried about the time gone by between the PTS scenes and the main GE action. I just accepted that the former took place in the Soviet Union and the latter in the Russian Federation. Oh, had we only known that there is not much of a difference in their leadership! But still...

    And I thought my point 7 was the best one!
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 768
    Why is there a 9 year gap between the PTS and the rest of GE?

    To bridge the Cold War and post-Cold War worlds, give Trevelyan enough time to establish clout in the Russian underworld, and give Bond a mini-mission in between AVTAK and TLD to unify three different eras, maybe.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,951
    thedove wrote: »
    How does Bunt hit Tracy did centre with a head shot when she is on an angle in the car Blofeld is driving?
    My big question has always been why didn't this version of the Aston Martin have bulletproof glass? I realize OHMSS was an attempt to minimize the gadgets, but still.
    thedove wrote: »
    How did Mi6 arrange the "killing" of Bond in YOLT?
    Simple. Q either rigged up a bulletproof shield under the bed or faked it with special effects and blanks and they threw in a bloody sheet.
    thedove wrote: »
    Why did Tiger film the ocean drop for Bond and Aki?
    Tiger needed to justify the cost to his superiors and not just what was reported in the Japanese press.
    thedove wrote: »
    Why is there a 9 year gap between the PTS and the rest of GE?
    To satisfy the Dalton not Bond cult upset that Brosnan was taken out of the role in '86 and made him the scapegoat. Besides, the whole it was all a dream and never happened thing was all the rage in the mid '80s.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Thanks for the catch up post @BT3366 I really like the question about the bulletproof glass. I always wondered that myself.

    Lets move back in time to 1987. A new Bond is introduced, dangerous and dark. This is the first film to feature Timothy Dalton. The PTS is a banger with some nice action in an iconic setting.

    But something happens before the action that has me scratching my head. I wonder if we have some theories that might rest my brain.

    Why does M have a full desk and pseudo office in the back of this plane?

    We have seen M out in the field before. I think of YOLT where in the submarine he apparently has enough space to have a full office and an office for Moneypenny. But this is a training exercise out in the field. I can't figure out why M needed a desk, filing cabinets and trickets and even pictures on the wall. To what purpose is all this needed? Would love to hear from theories on why this is needed in this plane?

  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,925
    It's a bit of a novelty that pops up in the Bond films, I think partly to surprise and amuse the audience. YOLT's office on the sub as noted; full HQ on the QEII sunken ship; Zorin's business meeting with the tycoons revealed to be on a blimp... Pretty much every type of larger vehicle has such a scene. It's the kind of absurd bizarreness I expect from these films.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,472
    The bit of trivia I like about this scene is that M's outfit has rank insignia which reveal him to be a lower ranking Admiral than the guy Robert Brown played in Spy Who Loved Me, so unless he's been demoted for some reason it seems he's not the same character :)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,587
    007ClassicBondFan wrote: »
    Hunt was so insistent on remaining close to the plot of OHMSS (the book) that when an idea popped up where Bond pulls a Shuriken out of his desk in the scene where he intends to resign from MI6, Hunt refused to film it saying YOLT happens after!

    So interesting. That's why the rebreather is the last item of that sequence.
  • Since62Since62
    Posts: 1,708
    I guess the question is asked in jest, asking for responses as if serious, knowing full well the remote office was a joke or, at least, something light-hearted to amuse the audience...appeared also in TSWLM...started during YOLT and continued during R Moore films, when tone definitely had changed. Meant to be funny, but, for some of us we went to Bond films in those years and in nearly each one had a groaner to endure. Well...it wasn't as bad as the Tarzan yell, or telling the tiger to "Sit !" both in OP, or dumb sound effects or music in TWTGG (swirl and pop during corkscrew auto jump) and AVTAK (surfing across the water surrounded by snow). When they used it in the plane in TLD it felt like a Moore-film leftover which somehow got past script review. I didn't find it amusing because it made M and his colleagues look stupid when the plane opened and his papers flew around. OK OK I'm being a party-pooper. They did it at least once because there were concerns that M's office in London had been bugged and the "exterminators" were cleaning it out. How's that ?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,587
    M's gotta M, desk and all.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Yes @Since62 some of these theories will be serious type questions and others tongue in cheek. This one popped into my head so I figured lets see what people may make of the desk in the plane. As been mentioned I do enjoy these out in the field offices. TLD is a return to serious Bond but with some playful touches. This office in the PTS being one of them. I especially love the "Blast" when the wind swirls around M's papers!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,229
    mtm wrote: »
    The bit of trivia I like about this scene is that M's outfit has rank insignia which reveal him to be a lower ranking Admiral than the guy Robert Brown played in Spy Who Loved Me, so unless he's been demoted for some reason it seems he's not the same character :)
    He's M!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,633
    As Tiger asks Bond, commenting on the train, if M doesn't have a similar arrangement? Of course he does, he's got a plane, a submarine, and all sorts of vessels. He likes toe keep ahead of things, keep on working while traveling. In this case, he was on his way to an international convention, and as he was flying over Gibraltar, he just let his 00's use the standard government plane to drop in on the base. It was registered as a normal civillian flight, so the 'defenders' weren't expecting anything of the sort.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    edited March 18 Posts: 4,843
    I'd like to think M's pseudo office is part of his 'rider list' when conducting field operations. Kinda like the ones you get with celebrities (they're usually weird demands like having a bowl of M&M's in their dressing room with a certain colour taken out. They're mainly there to make sure the venue have read the paperwork and are efficient).
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    I have no explanation. It honestly made me dislike the TLD PTS for years.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 18 Posts: 17,472
    Really? I've always thought it was good fun, it's a bit like Cleese's continuity announcer in Python, always behind his desk in a variety of weird environments.


  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,583
    He thinking this be moment to think back about the office game he and Bernard Lee M plan

    mszw740.jpg
    Bernard Lee office in Schip in TMWTGG.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited March 19 Posts: 14,229
    e75fd24a62d970306f33b1bb065fe479999dc3c3.gifv

    M on vacation.
    Argument with Mrs. Messervy.
    MI6 office renovation.
    Fumigation for termites.
    Vauxhall lease ended.
    Royal Navy Mileage Program Gold Member.
    Government cost savings to work from scheduled military flights.
    M subject to the "She'll have our guts for garters" discipline.


    2a278890b38f0b81ab9514c102d98ccaae06a406.gifv
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,925
    Office full of heavy statues and not one paperweight. At least they wouldn't gather dust like back at home.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    mtm wrote: »
    Really? I've always thought it was good fun, it's a bit like Cleese's continuity announcer in Python, always behind his desk in a variety of weird environments.


    It completely takes me off the film. M and the whole MI6 comes off as amateurish.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,342
    Obviously it’s all due to the over indulgence of the Conservative Thatcher era.
    M is clearly just a yuppie, and has kitted out a Hercules as a flying office. Probably what caused Gogol to go over to the foreign service. Couldn’t keep up with M and his aerial office.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    edited March 20 Posts: 5,671
    Lets go there! @mtm shared an interesting fact with this scene and it got me thinking...

    Is Bernard Lee's M the same character as Robert Brown's M?

    What is your theory?

    Bernard Lee played the role of M from 1962 till 1979. After his passing the film-makers recast the role and Robert Brown played M from 1983 to 1989. Hard to believe he played M in 4 films in 7 years! But I digress.

    There was no mention of a "new" M. The office didn't change from the previous films. M still appeared to be very much in charge, though he did get antagonistic with Bond in LTK. Seen with a pipe which keeps line with Lee's M. EON listed Brown as M in all his films. Both men seem to hold double-o-7 in high regard.

    Complicating matters is Brown is seen in TSWLM playing an Admiral leading some to believe he's playing the same character as he was in Spy. Therefore Admiral Hargreaves assumes the role of M in OP.

    What is your theory? Does Sir Miles finish his time as M at the end of MR? Or does Sir Miles make his last screen appearance in LTK?
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,382
    I always considered Robert Brown's M to be a different one to Bernard Lee's. I always liked the idea of Lee's M retiring sometime after Moonraker to be replaced with Admiral Hargreaves.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 20 Posts: 17,472
    He’s the same M for my money. That MI6 would end up with another Navy admiral seems a bit unlikely (it’s not a naval organisation), and one who likes to decorate his office with exactly the same stuff seems even more of a stretch. Plus BrownM is of a lower rank than Hargreaves as mentioned above: I would say they’re not the same person.
  • shimplyshocking007shimplyshocking007
    Posts: 172
    I think he's the same. There was a trend of using actors for different roles.
  • MalloryMallory
    Posts: 2,215
    Murdock wrote: »
    I always considered Robert Brown's M to be a different one to Bernard Lee's. I always liked the idea of Lee's M retiring sometime after Moonraker to be replaced with Admiral Hargreaves.
    Murdock wrote: »
    I always considered Robert Brown's M to be a different one to Bernard Lee's. I always liked the idea of Lee's M retiring sometime after Moonraker to be replaced with Admiral Hargreaves.

    This is my head cannon. Hargreaves was promoted.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 4,843
    They’re different but only in the Craig universe (where Bond never served under them anyway and their paintings are hung in MI6). In the Moore timeline they’re the same.

    Or some nonsense like that 😉
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    mtm wrote: »
    He’s the same M for my money. That MI6 would end up with another Navy admiral seems a bit unlikely (it’s not a naval organisation), and one who likes to decorate his office with exactly the same stuff seems even more of a stretch. Plus BrownM is of a lower rank than Hargreaves as mentioned above: I would say they’re not the same person.

    Pretty much this. And I'd add that in GE I think it's implied that Bond didn't work for multiple Ms before DenchM took over.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,472
    Mallory wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    I always considered Robert Brown's M to be a different one to Bernard Lee's. I always liked the idea of Lee's M retiring sometime after Moonraker to be replaced with Admiral Hargreaves.
    Murdock wrote: »
    I always considered Robert Brown's M to be a different one to Bernard Lee's. I always liked the idea of Lee's M retiring sometime after Moonraker to be replaced with Admiral Hargreaves.

    This is my head cannon. Hargreaves was promoted.

    And demoted :)


    007HallY wrote: »
    They’re different but only in the Craig universe (where Bond never served under them anyway and their paintings are hung in MI6). In the Moore timeline they’re the same.

    Or some nonsense like that 😉

    Good point, I'd forgotten about the paintings. We know it's not the same universe though, as you say.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,678
    It's the same M
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,633
    I'm with @Murdock on this. Miles retired, Hargreaves got the job. It just so happened neither the army nor the air force had a candidate for the job, and Hargreaves, who wasn't going anywhere, got the job with pay compensated. It was only for a few more years until retirement. He was a man of modest interest in his office, liked what Miles had done and left it like it was. Oddly, he got so attached to his desk, he found it necessary to take it with him wherever he went. Hence his bad temper in Key West. He was missing his desk.
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