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The theories of Bond films! Why is Holly Goodhead so antagonistic to Bond for most of MR?

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  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,196
    @CommanderRoss, I fully share your opinion. If Hargreaves, when taking up the position of M, actually had a lower rank than before, there is bound to be a logical explanation for it. For instance, a continuity error by the filmmakers.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,229
    To me it's the same Sir Miles Messervy. M.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,587
    Maybe Lee's M had plastic surgery?

    Brown and Lee seem similarly grumpy.
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    Posts: 97
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    I'm with @Murdock on this. Miles retired, Hargreaves got the job. It just so happened neither the army nor the air force had a candidate for the job, and Hargreaves, who wasn't going anywhere, got the job with pay compensated. It was only for a few more years until retirement. He was a man of modest interest in his office, liked what Miles had done and left it like it was. Oddly, he got so attached to his desk, he found it necessary to take it with him wherever he went. Hence his bad temper in Key West. He was missing his desk.

    Agree. As for the 'demotion,' perhaps it was intended to make it look like he was dishonorably discharged as a cover to taking over the role...
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Very interesting views here. I always took it to be the same character. Though a part of me likes Lee's M to be Sir Miles and for Brown to be someone else. The tip off in my head was the lack of difference in the office, but someone mentioned that maybe Brown's M liked the choices and just kept it all. So who knows!?

    Okay I was thinking a random thought the other day. This isn't a plot point or a singular character but I think I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.

    Blondes! Particularly Blonde men have turned up in villainous roles in the Bond films. Mostly as henchmen but a few times as the main baddie. I wonder if you have a theory for this?

    To recap we have the following appearing as baddies:
    • Red Grant FRWL
    • Hans YOLT
    • Erich Kreigler FYEO
    • Max Zorin AVTAK
    • Necros TLD
    • Alec GE (might be pushing the blonde narrative here, maybe he's more a brunette?)
    • Stamper TND
    • Davidov TWINE
    • Silva SF

    What theories do you have on this? Are they all nods or call backs to Grant? Did Broccoli et al have something against blonde haired gentlemen? Is there something evil about being blonde?

    For women it has been said that blondes have more fun, do blonde men have more evil?

    What are your theories for why so many blonde baddies!?
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    edited March 21 Posts: 721
    Bond being tall, dark and handsome, it provides more of a contrasting image when's he's up against another man.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,552
    Daltonforyou wrote: »
    Bond being tall, dark and handsome, it provides more of a contrasting image when's he's up against another man.

    This, and perhaps a post-WWII nod to the Aryan ideals of the Nazis.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,196
    Forgive me for pointing that out, being a German: Those blond baddies (both main villains and henchpersons) just play with the cliché of all Germans being baddies and also both blond and blue-eyed. OK, maybe we deserve that after we had a period in history when those characteristics were emphasized. But nevertheless, those blond guys are meant to evoke memories of pure-blood SS killers, even if their nationality in the movies is something else. Someone named "Hans", Erich Kriegler ("the East German champion" or so) and also Stamper, how un-German his name may be (but remember "so much for German efficiency") are somehow special baddies because they are German. And the others are at least designed to fit the overall description enough to let people make the connection.

    By the way, I just realized why Karin Dor (who obviously played a German henchperson) was also made to have her hair dyed blond as Helga Brand... she always was a brunette in every other movie I saw her in.

    PS: The hair colour isn't "blonde", it's blond. "A blonde" is only a "blond" woman. When I started learning English almost sixty years ago, the term was "fair-haired" anyway.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,229
    No reason.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PfDDPHZZ4U

  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Thanks for the spelling clarification.

    I checked in the ChatGPT and this was the answer that was returned to me:

    The spelling can vary depending on context. Traditionally, "blond" is used when referring to a male or as a general adjective, while "blonde" is used specifically for a female. However, in modern usage—especially in American English—both forms are often used interchangeably.

  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 22 Posts: 17,472
    Yeah it always rankles with me a bit when I see Daniel Craig described as ‘the blonde Bond’ or similar- take that ‘e’ away please! :)
  • Reflsin2bourbonsReflsin2bourbons
    Posts: 356
    On social media that thread title would have a very different implication...

    I find this particularly interesting because obviously the prototype was Red Grant, but he's not German and he isn't blond in the novel either. Just a byproduct of casting. And then through the broken telephone the German/Aryan aspect got added in.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Daltonforyou wrote: »
    Bond being tall, dark and handsome, it provides more of a contrasting image when's he's up against another man.

    This, and perhaps a post-WWII nod to the Aryan ideals of the Nazis.

    I'd add another theory regarding the blond henchman: because Grant was great, they reproduced his appearance.

    Regarding Silva, I'd add that he's a fake blond. He's following beauty standards that are not naturally his and it shows him as a fake and a deceiver.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,472
    I love Silvia’s facelifted look; in a way I wish they hadn’t explained it with the cyanide disfigurement. Just having that tight face and unnaturally dyed hair was enough to make him seem weird without leaning on the normal ‘scarred villain’ trope.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,229
    Blonde dysmorphia. Never blonde enough.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Not sure why but I had never considered how the contrasting hair colours makes following a fight easier to track for the audience. I am picturing FRWL fight with two dark haired men, it would be a challenge to follow who is doing what to whom.

    Hadn't even considered a Nazi or Aaryan angle to this choice of hair colour. Is that why Walken dyed his hair? As a tie back to Dr. Hans being linked to the Nazi's?
  • ArapahoeBondFanArapahoeBondFan Colorado
    Posts: 97
    thedove wrote: »

    Hadn't even considered a Nazi or Aaryan angle to this choice of hair colour. Is that why Walken dyed his hair? As a tie back to Dr. Hans being linked to the Nazi's?
    That's what I always thought
  • SeveSeve The island of Lemoy
    edited March 23 Posts: 483
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    What would Superman do these days when there are no longer any phone booths around?

    Good question, I guess he'd have to make do with...

    dusseldorf-germany-september-30-2022-260nw-2477704201.jpg
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,633
    thedove wrote: »
    Thanks for the spelling clarification.

    I checked in the ChatGPT and this was the answer that was returned to me:

    The spelling can vary depending on context. Traditionally, "blond" is used when referring to a male or as a general adjective, while "blonde" is used specifically for a female. However, in modern usage—especially in American English—both forms are often used interchangeably.

    I would say something about a department of education, but I guess politics are not allowed....

    But can I just randomly add that using chatGPT for questions like this is bound to use at least 20 times the amount of energy any other search quiry does, and is more likely to be wrong as well? Any dictionary site is more reliable.

    On the baddies, well, for some it is clear-cut: Zorin beeing a Nazi-experiment had to adhere to some stereotype, as goes for Stamper. The others I'm not so sure of, and tbh, over 25 films, to me it oesn't really stand out as much. It's just a bit of variety. I don't think, i.e., Davidov's hair colour had any reason specifically.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    Thanks for your suggestion that I refrain from using ChatGPT. I shall take that under advisement. Yes ChatGPT is flawed, just like the humans that use it.

    I suppose there is a dig there about me and my lack of education? Or are you insinuating that Americans are likely to get dumber with no Department of Education?

    I suppose you are right when I think of the black hair or brown hair villains it likely will rival if not surpass the blond contingent. Maybe because they are lighter haired they are standing out more?
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 721
    The passive-aggression on this board is astounding. Somebody's intelligence is questioned because they use a variation on spelling which is perfectly valid. Blonde or Blond are interchangeable. People need to get a life.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,455
    Another possible thematic reason: yellow/golden colours can have negative symbolic connotations. Yes, it can be associated with purity and light, but also of greed (being the colour of gold) and moral corruption. Silva is a Lucifer type figure, a sort of fallen angel. He's also a fake blond. The same could be said of Zorin, at least to some extent.

    I suggest the next Bond theory to be about Blofeld's Nehru jacket.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,671
    I will private message you @Ludovico for more details as that one intrigues me.

    In the meantime, here is one that I have often wondered and it concerns MR.

    Yes MR is a fantastical film. Lots of locations and a banger of an opener.

    However I have been always left to ponder this. Holly Goodhead is antagonistic to Bond from the start of the film. I have chalked his up to his chauvinistic ways when he meets her. "A woman?" like he's surprised to find a woman is a intelligent member of Drax's team. Then they meet again in Italy and the antagonism continues from Goodhead. They meet in Brazil and she finally starts to warm to our man. I have never figured out why Holly continues to hold Bond in such low esteem and to continue to make life difficult for him.

    By Italy they both realize that they are fighting the same side against Drax and yet she still is not forthcoming.

    What is your theory for her antagonistic ways? Is she really that upset about their first meeting that she continues to hold a grudge? Their governments are allies, why can't they get along?

    Why is Holly Goodhead antagonistic to Bond for most of MR?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited March 24 Posts: 17,472
    Yes, he is a bit of a knob to her right from the start, plus she's undercover investigating Drax whereas he's not: he's come openly as a representative of the UK government and makes it clear that he's basically nosing about Drax's operation, so she probably wants him as far away from her as possible so as not to draw attention to her more secretive mission.
  • MalloryMallory
    Posts: 2,215
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, he is a bit of a knob to her right from the start, plus she's undercover investigating Drax whereas he's not: he's come openly as a representative of the UK government and makes it clear that he's basically nosing about Drax's operation, so she probably wants him as far away from her as possible so as not to draw attention to her more secretive mission.

    This. He is a right bellend towards her from the start for no reason at all, and she probably sees him as someone who will meddle with her own mission.
  • Reflsin2bourbonsReflsin2bourbons
    Posts: 356
    Well yes he's rude but why has she simultaneously trusted him enough to bed him in Venice!

    It's bizarre when they mention trust as a maybe because in Venice they both know they have the same goals and there are no longer any pretenses that either has to act under.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,472
    I don't want to go off topic, but another odd bit of character stuff in MR is that M seems to not believe Bond about the laboratory in Venice after they go in with gas masks and Drax has cleared it away: not very trusting of his best agent! :)
  • Scaramanga1974Scaramanga1974
    Posts: 844
    One of Moores greatest pieces of acting is his reaction when he gets off the G-Force machine in Moonraker. Same reaction I get whenever I see current American politicians on the TV!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 17,472
    Yes he does that really well. I love that he's actually a bit pissed off with Holly and drops the suave and charming act just for a moment.
  • DEKE_RIVERSDEKE_RIVERS
    edited March 24 Posts: 1,753
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes he does that really well. I love that he's actually a bit pissed off with Holly and drops the suave and charming act just for a moment.

    This is my favorite scene from Roger. I love the one with Lazar in TMWTGG too.
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