The biggest missed opportunities in the Bond franchise

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  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,482
    Thought I would throw this out here or maybe it doesn't belong. But what would FYEO looked like if it had come after TSWLM? Would they have shoe horned in Jaws? What would MR look like if it was separated from TSWLM?

    Not sure I would say a missed opportunity. Just a what if? Maybe if MR had been separated from TSWLM we might have seen Gala Brand and the story that was in the book? Imagine if FYEO had been outlandish and MR more grounded.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,926
    Whoah. Moonraker as the gritty comeback after a lighter For Your Eyes Only would have been something special.
    tswlm.png
  • Posts: 16,226
    thedove wrote: »
    Thought I would throw this out here or maybe it doesn't belong. But what would FYEO looked like if it had come after TSWLM? Would they have shoe horned in Jaws? What would MR look like if it was separated from TSWLM?

    Not sure I would say a missed opportunity. Just a what if? Maybe if MR had been separated from TSWLM we might have seen Gala Brand and the story that was in the book? Imagine if FYEO had been outlandish and MR more grounded.

    I imagine a Christopher Wood screenplay and Gilbert directing, so probably a very different film.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,482
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?
  • Posts: 16,226
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?

    I wonder if Gala Brand might have been reduced to a supporting character for Roger rather than the leading lady. Perhaps a Bibi Dahl type character Bond doesn't actually bed? I can't see a Roger film not ending with Bond and the leading lady together.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?

    I wonder if Gala Brand might have been reduced to a supporting character for Roger rather than the leading lady. Perhaps a Bibi Dahl type character Bond doesn't actually bed? I can't see a Roger film not ending with Bond and the leading lady together.
    I think she would've still been the main Bond girl, although they probably would've taken out her fiancé and had 007 bed her during or by the end of the film. I actually wonder where you could add another Bond girl, considering there doesn't seem space for one in the novel?
  • Posts: 16,226
    Denbigh wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?

    I wonder if Gala Brand might have been reduced to a supporting character for Roger rather than the leading lady. Perhaps a Bibi Dahl type character Bond doesn't actually bed? I can't see a Roger film not ending with Bond and the leading lady together.
    I think she would've still been the main Bond girl, although they probably would've taken out her fiancé and had 007 bed her during or by the end of the film. I actually wonder where you could add another Bond girl, considering there doesn't seem space for one in the novel?

    Yes. That's more likely.
    Considering the novel takes place during a typical M-F work week, a secondary Bond girl could have been a Blades staff employee or office worker.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited March 2019 Posts: 5,970
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?

    I wonder if Gala Brand might have been reduced to a supporting character for Roger rather than the leading lady. Perhaps a Bibi Dahl type character Bond doesn't actually bed? I can't see a Roger film not ending with Bond and the leading lady together.
    I think she would've still been the main Bond girl, although they probably would've taken out her fiancé and had 007 bed her during or by the end of the film. I actually wonder where you could add another Bond girl, considering there doesn't seem space for one in the novel?

    Yes. That's more likely.
    Considering the novel takes place during a typical M-F work week, a secondary Bond girl could have been a Blades staff employee or office worker.
    That's true. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they chucked in a femme-fatale who works closely with Drax as someone for Bond to try and charm during the Blades sequence, kinda like Magda from Octopussy.
  • Posts: 16,226
    Denbigh wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Yes I agree @ToTheRight Would MR been directed by Glen? Do you think they would have grounded it like the book? Or because it had moon in the title do you think it would still take Bond to space.

    I still think the plot line of Gala and Bond and their romance or attempted romance is a storyline worth doing. You think about it in the books and you have him hurt after Vesper and then dealing with emotions he can't really follow up on with Gala. I think they touched a little on that with Camille in QOS but I would have liked to have seen more of the roimance and tension. Maybe a missed opportunity for the next actor?

    I wonder if Gala Brand might have been reduced to a supporting character for Roger rather than the leading lady. Perhaps a Bibi Dahl type character Bond doesn't actually bed? I can't see a Roger film not ending with Bond and the leading lady together.
    I think she would've still been the main Bond girl, although they probably would've taken out her fiancé and had 007 bed her during or by the end of the film. I actually wonder where you could add another Bond girl, considering there doesn't seem space for one in the novel?

    Yes. That's more likely.
    Considering the novel takes place during a typical M-F work week, a secondary Bond girl could have been a Blades staff employee or office worker.
    That's true. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they chucked in a femme-fatale who works closely with Drax as someone for Bond to try and charm during the Blades sequence, kinda like Magda from Octopussy.

    That would make sense. I'd really like to see a faithful adaptation of the novel. A low key Bond adventure. They could possibly use one of MR's chapter titles and switch up Drax's name slightly.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,333
    thedove wrote: »
    Thought I would throw this out here or maybe it doesn't belong. But what would FYEO looked like if it had come after TSWLM? Would they have shoe horned in Jaws? What would MR look like if it was separated from TSWLM?

    Not sure I would say a missed opportunity. Just a what if? Maybe if MR had been separated from TSWLM we might have seen Gala Brand and the story that was in the book? Imagine if FYEO had been outlandish and MR more grounded.
    A very interesting thought. Certainly with the availability of John Barry and Ken Adams, the movie would’ve sounded and looked entirely different, leaving Peter Lamont to be the production designer on MR. Also Bernard Lee would’ve still been alive to play M in a post-TSWLM movie. I’m pretty sure Lewis Gilbert would’ve included a much bigger climax battle than the one we got as it was part of his signature. I also believe the Lotus Esprit would’ve featured more heavily, rather than simply being blown up, which was a suggestion of Glen to demonstrate a back-to-basics and forcing 007 to rely on Melina's more humble Citroën 2CV. And yes, I also believe Jaws would’ve appeared in FYEO and not MR.
  • Posts: 16,226
    I'm curious is there is a rough draft or treatment of the original FYEO script. I wonder how far along Broccoli got before deciding to make the complete change? Also I'd love to see some news clips or TV coverage announcing the new title as MR.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,333
    Yes, I too am curious about a rough draft for the proposed FYEO 1977-8 version. I have a vague memory that it remained FYEO for at least another year after TSWLM was released, up until it was reported that the next Bond movie would be MR. As I recall the real story at the time was whether Roger Moore would indeed sign-up for a fourth 007 movie, not so much the title. Again, if recollection serves me right, it was when Eon finally announced that Moore had agreed to make a fourth movie (and possibly his last) that the change in title was simultaneously released with an explanation as to why. These stories were seldom given airtime on TV. The tendency was a short piece in Photoplay magazine or the daily newspapers.

    With regards to the version we already know, John Glen does state that there had been some discussion of bringing back the Jaws character for a third time, but eventually, the idea was rejected, as it was felt he did not fit with FYEO’s more serious tone.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 16,226
    bondsum wrote: »
    Yes, I too am curious about a rough draft for the proposed FYEO 1977-8 version. I have a vague memory that it remained FYEO for at least another year after TSWLM was released, up until it was reported that the next Bond movie would be MR. As I recall the real story at the time was whether Roger Moore would indeed sign-up for a fourth 007 movie, not so much the title. Again, if recollection serves me right, it was when Eon finally announced that Moore had agreed to make a fourth movie (and possibly his last) that the change in title was simultaneously released with an explanation as to why. These stories were seldom given airtime on TV. The tendency was a short piece in Photoplay magazine or the daily newspapers.

    With regards to the version we already know, John Glen does state that there had been some discussion of bringing back the Jaws character for a third time, but eventually, the idea was rejected, as it was felt he did not fit with FYEO’s more serious tone.

    Very interesting. I was always under the impression Roger was up for MR from the get-go. So it probably took a full year after SPY for him to decide.....just as Daniel took 2 years to decide for B25.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,333
    I’ve just unearthed this @ToTheRight on Universal Exports site with an interview with Christopher Wood.

    Had any prior work or scripting commenced on For Your Eyes Only before it was replaced by Moonraker?
    CW: Tom Mankiewicz had drafted the outline of a story that I was given to read. If this had any influence on the final script I cannot remember.

    So there you have it. Tom Mankiewicz had done some uncredited script writing for FYEO as he had done for TSWLM as well. There was clearly a drafted outline for the earlier version of FYEO until Maibum and Wilson gave it their own take in 1980.

    universalexports.net/interviews/wood2.shtml

    Just to reply to your recent post. No, that wasn’t the case at the time. There were plenty of showbiz tidbits after TSWLM about whether Moore would agree to make a fourth. Moore was clearly holding out for a bigger paycheck, but it could easily have blown up in his face.
  • Posts: 16,226
    bondsum wrote: »
    I’ve just unearthed this @ToTheRight on Universal Exports site with an interview with Christopher Wood.

    Had any prior work or scripting commenced on For Your Eyes Only before it was replaced by Moonraker?
    CW: Tom Mankiewicz had drafted the outline of a story that I was given to read. If this had any influence on the final script I cannot remember.

    So there you have it. Tom Mankiewicz had done some uncredited script writing for FYEO as he had done for TSWLM as well. There was clearly a drafted outline for the earlier version of FYEO until Maibum and Wilson gave it their own take in 1980.

    universalexports.net/interviews/wood2.shtml

    Just to reply to your recent post. No, that wasn’t the case at the time. There were plenty of showbiz tidbits after TSWLM about whether Moore would agree to make a fourth. Moore was clearly holding out for a bigger paycheck, but it could easily have blown up in his face.

    Interesting.
  • Posts: 1,927
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I'm curious is there is a rough draft or treatment of the original FYEO script. I wonder how far along Broccoli got before deciding to make the complete change? Also I'd love to see some news clips or TV coverage announcing the new title as MR.
    I have an article from May or June of 1978 from a paper when FYEO was still the title. The headline was 'There's a new James Bond movie coming' or something along those lines. It's in a scrapbook I used to have of Bond stories and pictures, but it's in storage, otherwise I'd upload it. Strange since shooting began in what, August?
  • Posts: 16,226
    BT3366 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I'm curious is there is a rough draft or treatment of the original FYEO script. I wonder how far along Broccoli got before deciding to make the complete change? Also I'd love to see some news clips or TV coverage announcing the new title as MR.
    I have an article from May or June of 1978 from a paper when FYEO was still the title. The headline was 'There's a new James Bond movie coming' or something along those lines. It's in a scrapbook I used to have of Bond stories and pictures, but it's in storage, otherwise I'd upload it. Strange since shooting began in what, August?

    So Broccoli would have stuck to the set schedule regardless and everyone would have had to up their game to get the production rolling by August: screenwriting, locations, sets, etc
    If that were the case today and Michael and Barbara opted to completely change plans, do a different Bond film altogether, there would probably be a delay of another 2 years.

    Ironically with MR every penny is still up on the screen in spite of changing films that late in the game.
  • pachazopachazo Make Your Choice
    edited March 2019 Posts: 7,314
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    BT3366 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I'm curious is there is a rough draft or treatment of the original FYEO script. I wonder how far along Broccoli got before deciding to make the complete change? Also I'd love to see some news clips or TV coverage announcing the new title as MR.
    I have an article from May or June of 1978 from a paper when FYEO was still the title. The headline was 'There's a new James Bond movie coming' or something along those lines. It's in a scrapbook I used to have of Bond stories and pictures, but it's in storage, otherwise I'd upload it. Strange since shooting began in what, August?

    So Broccoli would have stuck to the set schedule regardless and everyone would have had to up their game to get the production rolling by August: screenwriting, locations, sets, etc
    If that were the case today and Michael and Barbara opted to completely change plans, do a different Bond film altogether, there would probably be a delay of another 2 years.

    Ironically with MR every penny is still up on the screen in spite of changing films that late in the game.

    Really puts things in perspective doesn't it? I would love to read the original outline for FYEO. Certainly makes you wonder if anything survived or if it was completely scrapped.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,482
    Very interesting discussion. I wasn't aware of the Chris Wood interview thanks for sharing. Yes it would be interesting to know what kind of story and villain they planned for. As for whether MR would have been treated more seriously after it I guess we will never know.

    You are right @ToTheRight every penny is up on the screen. Though Drax's Space Station isn't has grandiose as the Liperus it's still an impressive set. The special effects cost a pretty penny too.

    Plus all the globe trotting. What would be interesting is did the 77-78 FYEO use the same locations? (Brazil, Italy, USA) or were those all booked at the last minute. When you think of it they had 2 years to get the movie together with possibly a different treatment. Quite impressive.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,333
    My guess is that Mankiewicz‘s outline for the original FYEO story remained pretty much intact and was what was used to lay the foundations of the later 1980 draft upon. That’s not to say that there weren’t notable differences. I’m still convinced Jaws would’ve made his second appearance in FYEO, had it not been for the switch around of MR taking its place. I’m sure the Havelocks, the daughter with the bow and arrow would have still remained, just that the third act would be entirely different. What we really need is an in-depth piece by MI6 on the first draft of FYEO. If only someone with connections could get their hands on that first Mankiewicz draft and reveal its secrets it would make a fantastic article.

    What I found interesting was stumbling across an interview with Richard Maibaum and his feelings about what kind of an actor Bond should be played by. He says: "Bond should be played like someone, like Sean, who is convincingly physical. One of my reservations about Roger is that he is not physical; he is not the physical superman Sean made you believe Bond was. In a strange way some people like Roger better than Sean. I certainly don't. I think Roger does very well. He's suave, witty, and so forth, but as far as I'm concerned, he has a dimension of disbelief. He does what I consider unforgivable: he spoofs himself and he spoofs the part. When you start doing that, the audience stops laughing. Just play the part. Moore makes everything so arch and is so coy about everything. We knew Roger was not a rough, tough guy like Sean. So, we deliberately gave him things to do that would make him tougher. But you see, he hasn't got it. You believed Sean could be pure steel if he wanted to be."

    I do agree with Maibaum’s sentiments here and have always felt that way. Even when I first saw Roger’s first two Bond movies at the cinema on their original releases I felt that way. He made another interesting point too. Maibaum, to put it mildly, wasn’t happy with the Moore one-liners either. He goes on to say: "My lines are 'Red wine with fish. That should have told me something' and 'She had her kicks' [both from From Russia with Love], Those are my lines, the ones I claim and enjoy writing. Some of the stuff I think is awful, like, 'Something big is coming between us.' Roger insists on making some script changes. He's very proud of them and tells everybody. And some of his 'improvements' are just awful.”

    I know that the last few paragraphs aren’t really anything to do with the FYEO first draft, but as I stumbled upon Maibaum’s comments on what type of actor he wrote for and his views on 007, I thought I’d take the opportunity to share them with those that were unfamiliar with them. I also think it’s interesting as we approach the end of Craig’s tenure and the ushering in of a new actor. My own belief is Maibaum wouldn’t be too thrilled by Tom Hiddleston’s name being bandied about, as he’s too fay and lacks the physicality that Maibaum always sought.
  • edited April 2019 Posts: 377
    James Bond.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,482
    @bondsum I remember that article. It was in a magazine called Starlog and focussed on OP and NSNA and the "Battle of the Bonds". Also an article about Lazenby in there if I recall. I remember him saying he tried hard to get Blood, Sweat and Tears to do the theme song of OHMSS and that the producers told him to stick to acting. He wasn't a fan of Barry's instrumental if I recall.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 3,333
    The Blood, Sweat and Tears remark by Lazenby I think was said before he’d even heard the final John Barry score for his movie. He felt that the series needed a fusion of contemporary pop at the time, rather than the bland MOTR singers that were being picked over the more popular artists. Some would argue that he had a point to a certain degree. It was only when Paul McCartney performed LALD did we actually get a top music act of the period that showed he wasn’t particularly wrong in his assessment. For instance just imagine had The Doors performed a Bond song, or Jimi Hendrix. The musical bar would’ve been set high before McCartney & Wings did their song. Of course, I absolutely love Bassey’s DAF song, but it wasn’t a commercial success in 71.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Wow. Maibaum doesn’t hold back regarding Roger. I’ve always believed Moore’s bedroom scene with Grace Jones in AVTAK was an attempt by someone (possibly Maibaum) to get back at him.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,057
    Fun fact: Martin Grace was originally slated to perform the bedroom stunt with Grace Jones, but he called in sick that day.

    So did Bill Weston, Richard Graydon, Bob Simmons and the entire stunt team.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,695
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Fun fact: Martin Grace was originally slated to perform the bedroom stunt with Grace Jones, but he called in sick that day.

    So did Bill Weston, Richard Graydon, Bob Simmons and the entire stunt team.

    Haha, this made me laugh. Which is a shame for them, I hear Grace Jones is a nice lady.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 7,653
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Fun fact: Martin Grace was originally slated to perform the bedroom stunt with Grace Jones, but he called in sick that day.

    So did Bill Weston, Richard Graydon, Bob Simmons and the entire stunt team.

    Fantastic, I still think that Roger deserved an Oscar for that single moment in AVTAK.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,695
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Fun fact: Martin Grace was originally slated to perform the bedroom stunt with Grace Jones, but he called in sick that day.

    I got the AVTAK close up book today, which makes this ironic.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,482
    On the topic of music. Are there any rumoured musical acts that you would have loved to see sing a Bond theme. While not the biggest opportunity it is interesting to think of what might have been. Listened to Moonraker today and was trying to imagine Ol' Blue Eyes crooning that tune. I think he would have done a nice job on it.

    I also think Blondie doing FYEO would have been something special. Not that I can complain with Sheena.

    Any thoughts on this guys and gals?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Toshiro Mifune declining to take the role of Tanaka.
    mifune_3201.jpg
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