Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,189
    The problem with the interrogation tape scene is that we have seen it so many times before in modern movies. Hero finds old photo or momentum of a deceased loved one and looks at it poignantly before someone calls to them and they quickly put it down.

    Craig's performance though is fine.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 1,469
    Alright, but it only reminds me of the Bond-Vesper connection.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,189
    It wasn't for me either until I re-watched that scene last time. I thought to myself "we've seen this before". It feels rather forced to be honest.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    jobo wrote: »
    I think the main problem with Dalton is that he's very convincing in the darker moments ('don't you want to konw why?") but the lighter moments are on and off. With Kara I like it when he poses as a friend, but not much later, with the balloon, it's just not Bond. He's too emotional.
    Brosnan has th same problem. Bond should keep his emotions and his actions in two sperate rooms. I think Craig portrays that perfectly, as did Connery and Moore. Moore may not be the most convincing fighter (the least of them all) but he's capable of that division.


    Fleming's Bond however, I would caracterize as more of an emotional type. Be genuinly falls for many of the girls through out the novels, and he has a long standing relationship with Tiffany Case for instance, who leaves him not the opposite. There is often genuine romance in the novels. Although I understand where you are coming from, I don't think it is necesarrily wrong to depict him that way. It is just a different interpretation.

    For me the strongsuit of Fleming is exactly this: Bond having two 'chambers'. He does have emotions (quite a lot in fact) but he only has time for them at the moments he can. It's exactly why he doesn't want to work with women they destract him from the one thing (his job) to the other (emotional involvement). Bond isn't a womanizer in the sense that he 'just likes to have sex' with the ladies, he's always more interested, but also knows his job will stand in the way. I don't think Fleming's Bond ever saw women as 'disposeable pleasures' at all. That's something put in later, as a perception of the general public.
    Take his reaction after the beating in Casino Royale (book). First he breaks down towards Mathis, but only after his ordeal and after he knows Le Chiffre isn't a thread anymore. Only after that he's got time for Vesper in the way he wants. It's one of the things I love about the movie as well, Craig portrays this devision very well, getting angry with her for not giving him the money (professional) and acting on it (knife) but when there's no danger he has a place for emotions (shower).

    Another example is the book MR. First he's annoyed by Gala, then he sees her as a professional, then he's annoyed by the fact that she doesn't seem interested but he puts that away when work is at hand. At the end he hopes for a romantic relationship, only to find out she's already engaged. He doesn't persue her after that, because he respects her and her fiancee.

    Now coming back to Pierce's Bond, there's one example that says it all: when he chases Elektra she presumes he won't harm her because they slept together (overstating 'love' there a bit Elektra, but ok), but he's cold as ice when he pulls the trigger (I never miss). That would've been perfect (two chambers, there's a submarine to catch) but no, Bro's Bond finds time to bend over and see how she's doing (rather dead old boy). It's out of tune. Out of Bond. Same goes for Teri Hatcher's death. He knows he's in danger, he knows it's a set-up but still he prefers to mourn (what exactly is anyone's guess, but that's more because of Teri's miscasting).

    Sure Sean's Bond runs towards Tilly after the hat-kill, but that's more of a defiant act as he knows he won't be able to get away. He doesn't show too much emotion, he just radiates an inner rage about her death.

    Sean does these things perfectly. Same goes when he's talking to Dr. No. Yes, there are emotions, but not of loss, but of rage. And he uses it to rile up Dr. No. Even better, when he's forced to inform Domino about the loss of her brother he first puts on his sunglasses, making sure that emotions don't mix into the job.
  • Posts: 7,507
    @CommanderRoss

    Good post. And I agree.

    Is Bond 'on duty' however in the Paris wheel in Wienna? Or is he in apparent danger in Muhajedins village? I don't think Bond's behavior towards Kara was ever out of place in relation to Fleming's depiction of him.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    Oh but the Vienna wheel isn't the problem. But when he goes to see Saunders and Saunders is killed, Bond runs after the ballons. When he finds the one with 'Smiert Shpionam' on it, he over reacts and takes it out on Kara (yes, I've got the message) confusing the hell out of her for no apparent reason. She's still thinking Jorgi is a good guy and Bond is helping her to get out of the Eastern block.
    I don't mind him courting her, but he's a bit inconsistent at times. He's very good on the airbase ('We're free! Kara, where in the middle of a Russian airbase!'). But when he's supposed to be harsh to her when he's going after the opium and she wants to come along, he seems more confused then in control.

  • Posts: 7,507
    Ok. I did never get the sense that Bond was always that emotionally stable during the novels... But I see your point.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    The videotape.
    Character on a mission pauses to reflect on the VHS tape in his hand of the (dead) love of his life's apparent interrogation. Then quickly moves on.
    Well played, tells something about the current state of the character. Bond stays on point, on mission. A quick callback to Vesper, not so different from the Fleming novels where he could share Bond's thoughts more easily. Bond is confronted by these things but doesn't wear them on his sleeve.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Going back to TSWLM and Roger, he is the only one to really portray Commander Bond.

    Connery and Brosnan had a couple of scenes in their Naval uniform, but with Roger we spend an extended amount of time with him in a Naval setting.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Oh but the Vienna wheel isn't the problem. But when he goes to see Saunders and Saunders is killed, Bond runs after the ballons. When he finds the one with 'Smiert Shpionam' on it, he over reacts and takes it out on Kara (yes, I've got the message) confusing the hell out of her for no apparent reason. She's still thinking Jorgi is a good guy and Bond is helping her to get out of the Eastern block.
    I don't mind him courting her, but he's a bit inconsistent at times. He's very good on the airbase ('We're free! Kara, where in the middle of a Russian airbase!'). But when he's supposed to be harsh to her when he's going after the opium and she wants to come along, he seems more confused then in control.
    Excellent explanation @CommanderRoss. We see it exactly the same way, and that is why, despite some standout elements in other areas, the period from 1987 to 2002 is the weakest by far in the franchise for me.

    I will say that excellent though Craig generally is, there are elements of this in his SP portrayal as well, namely his emotional reaction and lunge at Blofeld (when his legs were taken out) after White's death tape was shown. Similarly the "Come on!!!!!" as he was attempting to recorrect the trajectory of the wingless plane as it hurtled towards the woods. A far cry (for me) from his pitch perfect ball buster scene. These are minor quibbles however. I thought he handled the Vesper tape incident just right (that whole L'Americaine scene is the highlight of his performance for me, right down to the mouse).
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    What this discussion shows @mattjoes is that we can each see the same thing and have different impressions of it based on our own frame of reference and preferences.

    Indeed. Cheers!
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Going back to TSWLM and Roger, he is the only one to really portray Commander Bond.

    Connery and Brosnan had a couple of scenes in their Naval uniform, but with Roger we spend an extended amount of time with him in a Naval setting.

    I'd like to see Craig in the uniform before he leaves, but I feel it would be a bit out of left field now.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    2017 was not to be. Looking forward to 2027.
    gieves%20new%20pics%20021.jpg
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 1,469
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I'd like to see Craig in the uniform before he leaves, but I feel it would be a bit out of left field now.
    You're right...not much focus on "the fleet" in recent years...more focus on aircraft and car chases. Changing times I guess. But the fleet could always make a comeback if upcoming Bond films tackle issues similar to the threats from places like North Korea or Iran. Not sure how comfortable Craig might look in the uniform, but I'm open to anything.

  • Posts: 7,507
    Why wouldn't Craig fit the uniform? He has a better build than Roger.
  • Posts: 1,469
    I just mean he seems less like the naval type to me than some of the other Bonds. But he's a good actor...I'm sure he could pull it off.

  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    What is a naval type?
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    What is a naval type?
    Naval. Navel. Evel Knievel.
  • I think Craig's Bond is meant to be ex Royal Marines and SBS. Someone on here found an old CR promotional site that said that was the case. To be fair that's a more realistic background for Bond anyway. You'd assume that a 00 agent would be ex special forces and while it's not unheard of for Navy officers to get into the SBS or even SAS, it is very uncommon. I guess Bond is exceptional though. Maybe he joined the Navy as an officer, eventually became a commander, but the adrenaline junkie in him wasn't satisfied and so he put himself forward for selection.

    I know they've done a lot of delving into Bond's past but I would like to see Bond's military career play a role in a future film. Maybe he meets someone on a mission that he knew when he was serving (a villain? although bit of a Trevelayn retread) or maybe the villain could be head of a PMC and Bond goes undercover using his real military record to win his trust.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Going back to TSWLM and Roger, he is the only one to really portray Commander Bond.

    Connery and Brosnan had a couple of scenes in their Naval uniform, but with Roger we spend an extended amount of time with him in a Naval setting.

    I agree with this. I don't think it's just the setting either, when you see him leading the troops into battle you really buy it. I think Moore was really credible as an ex officer sort, because of how he carries himself and his naturally commanding voice/presence. It makes sense. With Connery it was believeable too but he was always a bit rougher round the edges, and while it was a nice nod seeing Brosnan in the uniform I could never actually picture him as an RN commander. But Moore fit Commander Bond perfectly.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @thelivingroyale and @BAIN123, I totally agree with your take as RM being the only "Commander" Bond. He truly led the charge in TSWLM...
  • Posts: 15,125
    It might actually be controversial here, although it should not be, but I cannot understand this obsession for Mavy uniforms some people have here. In the "list of flaws pf SF" thread there was an actual mention of Bond not wearing that darn uniform.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    He could pull off the look. I randomly came across this photoshopped image of him.
    L0q4bxpl.jpg
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Yes @Murdock!
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Love that!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    I have no doubt he could pull it off. The question is, can P&W.....
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Someone make a B25 poster!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It might actually be controversial here, although it should not be, but I cannot understand this obsession for Mavy uniforms some people have here.
    Interesting observation. I didn't realize it before, but you could be right.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    jake24 wrote: »
    Someone make a B25 poster!

    I'm on it.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 386
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    There, I've said it. Better than Connery, who clearly comes second in this regard with some wonderful moments with Bernard Lee.

    Brosnan is actually my least favorite Bond, but I can't deny his particular chemistry with Dench. It crackles more than DC's interactions IMO.

    GE - the introduction of Dame Judy, and boy does she let Bond know his place. Sets the tone for their relationship and is very well handled.

    TND - the trust, the faith, shown by M under pressure from the entire British Navy. She doesn't get many moments here but Dench makes every post a winner.

    TWINE - the entanglment of personal and professional lives as both M and Bond come up against Elektra King. I maintain that TWINE did MI6 under attack better than Skyfall.

    DAD - yes, poor film, but those trust issues rise again when Bond is left to rot in North Korea. That scene between Bond and M in the abandoned underground (before everything goes to **** with the invisible car) is first class and one of the best narrative threads in the movie. Should've been explored more.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I agree @GetCarter , quite controversial!
  • GetCarter wrote: »
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    There, I've said it. Better than Connery, who clearly comes second in this regard with some wonderful moments with Bernard Lee.

    Brosnan is actually my least favorite Bond, but I can't deny his particular chemistry with Dench. It crackles more than DC's interactions IMO.

    GE - the introduction of Dame Judy, and boy does she let Bond know his place. Sets the tone for their relationship and is very well handled.

    TND - the trust, the faith, shown by M under pressure from the entire British Navy. She doesn't get many moments here but Dench makes every post a winner.

    TWINE - the entanglment of personal and professional lives as both M and Bond come up against Elektra King. I maintain that TWINE did MI6 under attack better than Skyfall.

    DAD - yes, poor film, but those trust issues rise again when Bond is left to rot in North Korea. That scene between Bond and M in the abandoned underground (before everything goes to **** with the invisible car) is first class and one of the best narrative threads in the movie. Should've been explored more.

    Definitely agree. I think Dench was the best M and I loved her and Brosnan's relationship. She was good with Craig too but I wasn't a fan of the whole surrogate mum dynamic at all. Brosnan wouldn't have been so hurt by her ordering Moneypenny to shoot in SF (a terrible call but still, Bond knows he's expendable). He'd have understood as he did in DAD. They had their tense moments but there was an underlying respect there that never got too soppy/emotional, and they both understood eachother enough to never let that tension turn into a petty spat.
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