Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I know the Rory Kinnear dislike here is pretty strong, but I don't see that as a viable way to allow Michael Kitchen any more credit. I said back in the day the character was a blank spot and hardly stood out. Tanner being Bond's closest friend in the service in the books probably has no place in cinematic Bond. He seems just to be a member of the staff and little more.

    The key difference being that as Chief Of Staff I can envisage Kitchen stepping into the breach and running the department with the immediate respect of everyone if M was on leave a la FYEO or kidnapped a la Colonel Sun.

    The only job I can see Rory stepping into successfully is assistant manager at the Uttoxeter branch of Marks and Spencer.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I know the Rory Kinnear dislike here is pretty strong, but I don't see that as a viable way to allow Michael Kitchen any more credit. I said back in the day the character was a blank spot and hardly stood out. Tanner being Bond's closest friend in the service in the books probably has no place in cinematic Bond. He seems just to be a member of the staff and little more.

    The key difference being that as Chief Of Staff I can envisage Kitchen stepping into the breach and running the department with the immediate respect of everyone if M was on leave a la FYEO or kidnapped a la Colonel Sun.

    Yeah. Kitchen is a funnier Tanner, but he gives off a definite sense of authority, even if he doesn't get to exert it too much. Kinnear's Tanner is so muted a character that I can't picture him as much more than M's assistant.
  • Posts: 16,154
    The Bond and Tanner of the novels I can picture socializing at a local pub or maybe Blades. Brosnan and Kitchen I could see having a drink together, but I don't imagine Craig's Bond and Rory's Tanner ever hanging out. Seems as if it would be awkward.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    this isn't controversial since I'm sure most would agree-- I just had no idea where to put this, but:

    In SP, Q leaves London, tracks down Bond, all to tell him that Franzy O is dead? Surely the Quartermaster could have found/developed/pimped a phone to tell this to Bond via text, no?

    It's stupid to bring out Q (plus he's scared of flying, no...?)

    Although, I must admit, for the first time since watching SP, I did like Bond and Madeleine's Q&A session-- that may be controversial.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Sorry, chaps, not to be accused of spamming, but I am re-watching SP (Dog only knows why), and I have to say that, as a critic of Madeleine, and watching to see anything "special" in her performance, I am actually liking what she's doing, up to and right at, the moment she wonders what drink she will order on the train.

    Seriously, go to her scenes and watch her. She's actually quite good. And then it's like a new, dumber and less talented actress takes over.

    Very weird.
  • Posts: 676
    I have no real problem with Lea Seydoux, even if she doesn't leave much of an impression. The character needed 3 or 4 more scenes to flesh out the relationship with Bond, though. That moves way too fast in the film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I personally think she gives the worst female performance of any actress in a Bond film since Halle Berry. I have seen that evaluation scene in SP several times and find it awful although that's not entirely due to her. The way it unfolds is quite unnatural with no proper greeting or pleasantries. Quite unprofessional. Her elocution in the Range Rover with Hinx is bad, as is her intonation when critiquing Bond post crash.

    The film would have benefited tremendously from another actress in this quite pivotal role imho.

    That is different from the character itself, which did require a few more scenes in the film to flesh out the relationship.
  • Posts: 676
    bondjames wrote: »
    I personally think she gives the worst female performance of any actress in a Bond film since Halle Berry. I have seen that evaluation scene in SP several times and find it awful.
    She kind of looks like she's on the verge of yawning the entire time. Maybe the character is supposed to be tired in this scene, but it's hardly a good Bond girl introduction. Not exactly Ursula Andress rising from the sea.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @bondjames -- I get your points, but I made a concerted effort to watch her performance, and there are imbalances, for sure. But, over all, and for the first time since watching, she ain't so bad. Up until she ordered her dirty martini.

    And, no, she is not as bad as Jinx, or Christmas, or Goodnight... more on par with Holly Goodhead...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited October 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @peter, given the importance of her role to the Craig Bond narrative (and the film itself), I actually think she's far worse than Halle, whose Jinx was just another wise cracking spy who accompanies Bond on a mission.

    She tries, I'll give you that much, but she just didn't gel with the tone of the film or the narrative up to that point for me. As soon as she arrives on the scene an imbalance set into the film which continued through to the limp finale.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    bondjames wrote: »
    @peter, given the importance of her role to the Craig Bond narrative (and the film itself), I actually think she's far worse than Halle, whose Jinx was just another wise cracking spy who accompanies Bond on a mission.

    She tries, I'll give you that much, but she just didn't gel with the tone of the film or the narrative up to that point for me. As soon as she arrives on the scene an imbalance set into the film which continued through to the limp finale.

    Couldn't have said it better myself. Her and Andrew Scott both help sink the film after a pretty good first act.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Andrew Scott, to me, is one of the worst things to show up in a Bond film, @Remington, and I continue to FF through his scenes, and, probably, will never watch them again, unless forced to. With a gun to my head.

    I'm just saying, as my previous posts implies: I never liked Madeleine before... This, after the hundredth viewing, I made a concerted effort just to watch her.

    And this time, after a hundred, tells me she ain't as bad as she was directed-- so pop that finger over at Mendes. She was uneven coz of the director... and then the script.

    Not a fan of Maddy in the least, but she did the best, as did Craig, with the shit given them.

    And it was shit, @JamesBond and @Remington...
  • Controversial opinion: James Bond should be smoking again. In Bond 25. Do it.
    Enough of this "smokeless 21st century" nonsense. Give the man his tobacco. Let him do his thing. Hell... he was consuming prostitutes in Skyfall (island where he's popping pills and drinking with scorpions), so why not let him smoke like normal? Because of the children? Because it's a family film? NONSENSE!
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    The next bond will pound back energy drinks, Vape chilli flake caramel flavour smoke and listen to Dead Maus EDM on his Tesla car stereo.
  • Posts: 11,189
    The last time we saw Bond smoke was in DAD ironically. It doesn't make the character or film any better.
  • Posts: 684
    I don't really have a dog in the 'smoking Bond' fight. I'm not necessarily against it. I enjoyed seeing Pierce have a cigar in DAD, but I can't say I've missed it since. Apparently including smoking may soon trigger an automatic R-rating (wouldn't really mind that either -- in fact I'm curious what an R-rated Bond would look like).
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    The last Bond to have a proper fag was Dalton, and to be honest it really didn't add much to either of his films. Obviously it helped in LTK otherwise he wouldn't of needed a lighter to burn Sanchez to death!

    Smoking is such a disgusting habit and it just wouldn't suit Craig's Bond.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    I though Dalton tried too hard with his smoking honestly. No topping Connery with a smoke. :))
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    Yeah, I don't think the smoking adds anything worthwhile myself. No skin off my nose either way, but we may as well get with the times. Smoking just isn't required to portray Bond's essential elements for me.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    I thought Dalton looked a natural with the cigarette - especially in TLD. I remember the interviews around the time and he was chain smoking like crazy as he discussed the characteristics of his interpretation of Bond.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    I didn't know Moore smoked cigars in real life as well until I saw some interviews with him.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    The next bond will pound back energy drinks, Vape chilli flake caramel flavour smoke and listen to Dead Maus EDM on his Tesla car stereo.

    Christ there's a thought. How long before drives an electric car? I would say no later than 2027 and as early as B26.
    Yeah, I don't think the smoking adds anything worthwhile myself.

    Suggest you rewatch Sean's introduction in DN and Laz in the casino when they both light up. Sublime.
  • Posts: 11,189
    As well as a cigar Broz also smoked a normal cigarette in Raoul's office when he was looking at the diamond.
  • Posts: 15,115
    TBH I only think Sir Sean did it right with the cigarette smoking. Although I liked Moore and Brosnan smoking cigars.

    I'd be happy to see Bond smoking cigars again. Cigarettes are now so unglamorous.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    As well as a cigar Broz also smoked a normal cigarette in Raoul's office when he was looking at the diamond.

    I don't remember that. I'll have to have another look!
  • Controversial opinion: James Bond should be smoking again. In Bond 25. Do it.
    Enough of this "smokeless 21st century" nonsense. Give the man his tobacco. Let him do his thing. Hell... he was consuming prostitutes in Skyfall (island where he's popping pills and drinking with scorpions), so why not let him smoke like normal? Because of the children? Because it's a family film? NONSENSE!

    Yeah, it isn't a dealbreaker for me by any means but I just can't see any justification for him not to smoke anymore. Unrealistic? Who cares. The whole concept of James Bond is unrealistic and watching Dalton light one up in the safehouse didn't undermine the credibility of the amazing stuntwork he did in the PTS, nor did Fleming's Bond smoking so much undermine the credibility of all the swimming he did, Dr No's obstacle course, etc. Plus he isn't healthy anyway.

    And exactly, Bond isn't supposed to be a role model. The whole point is he's someone men want to be but know they never could be. And yeah, kids are easily impressionable sure but they're not going to start smoking because of James Bond are they. More likely to be shooting their mates with imaginary guns (also, glamorising sex with random girls and cold blooded killing is fine but smoking isn't? Cmon).

    The only decent argument against it is that it isn't glamourous anymore but speaking as someone who quit years ago, I still think it just looks cool. I don't want to see Bond asking the Bond girl to keep an eye on his martini while he nips out to the smoking area and is huddled over trying light one in the rain, but there are instances where they could make it work. Look at Lazenby in the OHMSS pts for instance, smoking as he drives the DBS with one hand. He looks unbelieveably cool.

    Apparently the QoS script had him smoking but Craig vetoed it so we could see him start again with the next guy. I doubt we'll ever see him smoke as much as Connery did because it's a different world but he could still have a fag every now and again. Bond's vices really add to the character imo. What's next? Have him cut down on his drinking in case a five year old gets at their dads heineken? Bond is supposed to look cool and dangerous and like he knows he could die at any minute and I think smoking adds to that.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a necessity but I don't see why he shouldn't smoke. It'd be a nice little touch if they bought it back imo. Plus a lighter provides a few cool opportunities for gadgets (think it was GE with the camera hidden in one? And in Kingsman their lighters are mini flamethrowers as well as grenades).
  • Posts: 15,115
    My only objections for Bond smoking cigarettes is that 1)it's no longer seen as glamorous and/or sophisticated and 2)only Connery really did it for me. He just had the right nonchalance.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Smoking is just seen as too nasty. Every time Fleming mentions it, I breeze through the descriptions as fast as I can. Personally, I would find it unbelievable in a modern agent. It’s an archaic vice; booze and sex aren’t.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    peter wrote: »
    Smoking is just seen as too nasty. Every time Fleming mentions it, I breeze through the descriptions as fast as I can. Personally, I would find it unbelievable in a modern agent. It’s an archaic vice; booze and sex aren’t.

    Exactly. It's out of step with a modern agent.

    Besides without trying to sound like a snob, smoking is now seen more as a habit of the working class.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    As late as 1960 only one-third of all US doctors believed that the case against cigarettes had been established. The cigarette is the deadliest artefact in the history of human civilisation. Cigarettes cause about 1 lung cancer death per 3 or 4 million smoked, which explains why the scale of the epidemic is so large today. Cigarettes cause about 1.5 million deaths from lung cancer per year, a number that will rise to nearly 2 million per year by the 2020s or 2030s, even if consumption rates decline in the interim.

    Smoking was cool in the 50's/ 60's and went well with the Bond image. Now, in modern society it doesn't fit the character.
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