Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    jobo wrote: »
    People just don't like Cornell, and refuse to admit he made something good...

    Hmm... and instead they bring themselves to support tripe like Lulu's cat-lady screeching for TMWTGG.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited November 2017 Posts: 9,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Semi-controversial opinion: You Know My Name is one of my favorite Bond title songs.

    Is that even controversial?

    A tremendous kick in the bollocks of a title sequence and probably the best title song since the 60s.
  • Roadphill wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Fair enough, and despite other flaws I’d add TMWTGG to that list of ‘is he going to pull through?’.

    Nevertheless, speaking of Fleming, his Bond was also classy, bon vivant and not an everyday muscleman. Something we’ve lost during the Craig years.

    The reason why I liked Bond more than any other (action) hero was his refined tastes and his cultural snobbery. Something that set him apart from others. I miss that a lot.

    This.

    As pompous and far-fetched it might sound, but If you don't you're actually not really a Bond fan.
  • GoldenGun wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Can't see Craig having a laugh with a bad wine.

    Exactly. The fact he can't do it is a limitation. When I see people comparing Craig and Connery, I shake me head. Craig is the opposite. Connery was the least limited Bond actor there has been, and thereby the most complete Bond actor to date. Craig has benefited by the fact that the films have played to his strengths since the word go. Dalton never got a film that was tailored to him. Even LTK is horribly mismatched. What I noticed in SP was for the first time Craig struggling with his delivery. That's what I realised, that Craig is the least adaptable actor out of the 6. As soon as he is called to move an inch out of his comfort zone, he just looks awkward.

    He wouldn't even know the difference.

    In QOS Mathis' girlfriend says: "È un vino qualsiasi."
    Translated: "This is just any kind of wine."
    Which means it's as average as they go.

    Bond laughs and pours himself a glass.

    Not exactly the connoisseur who unmasks villains because he knows Mouton Rothschild is a claret.

    I can even imagine Fleming writing something like: Bond disliked people who drank any kind of wine just for the sake of drinking wine.

    As much as I agree with you I think on that point you're wrong. Mathis and whatever Italian living in the house certainly wouldn't drink bad wine ( there are two traits Italians in general excel, Creation and appreciation of beauty and good food/wine. After all wine doesn't have to be expensive to be of good quality. And I actually can see Flemings Bond drinking it with pleasure, musing about its honest and straight taste compared to some fancy brands.
  • I will strictly referring to the savoir vivre point.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Apparently not much love for TMWTGG here, but for me it’s Moore’s best.

    Or at least my favourite. Scaramanga is my favourite villain of the series, Moore gives what is probably his most Flemingesque performance, I adore the South Asian atmosphere and the music score, the sets are impressive (especially the stranded boat HQ and the island) and I also like the overall absurdity of the film.

    Some lovely Swedish contributions in this one as well ;)
    I quite agree. I can't objectively defend it (apart from Moore and Lee's performances) but I have a soft spot for this film. It's one of the earliest I remember watching and I've always found it exotic and atmospheric...and yes, the Swedes are pretty decent too. ;)
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Can't see Craig having a laugh with a bad wine.

    Exactly. The fact he can't do it is a limitation. When I see people comparing Craig and Connery, I shake me head. Craig is the opposite. Connery was the least limited Bond actor there has been, and thereby the most complete Bond actor to date. Craig has benefited by the fact that the films have played to his strengths since the word go. Dalton never got a film that was tailored to him. Even LTK is horribly mismatched. What I noticed in SP was for the first time Craig struggling with his delivery. That's what I realised, that Craig is the least adaptable actor out of the 6. As soon as he is called to move an inch out of his comfort zone, he just looks awkward.
    I agree with you. The films have been tailored to his approach and SP (which overtly attempted to harken back to the old classics, at Craig's behest no less) is the first time I cringed at a Bond performance since the late 90s.

    This should have been readily apparent when he was cast however. He just doesn't have the look for the smooth, sophisticated type, and so can't sell this element well (particularly in comparison to the naturals that preceded him). If they want to make this work in B25, they will have to ensure the script is top notch and that he is surrounded by some classy players to compensate (e.g. Green and Giannini).
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Can't see Craig having a laugh with a bad wine.

    Exactly. The fact he can't do it is a limitation. When I see people comparing Craig and Connery, I shake me head. Craig is the opposite. Connery was the least limited Bond actor there has been, and thereby the most complete Bond actor to date. Craig has benefited by the fact that the films have played to his strengths since the word go. Dalton never got a film that was tailored to him. Even LTK is horribly mismatched. What I noticed in SP was for the first time Craig struggling with his delivery. That's what I realised, that Craig is the least adaptable actor out of the 6. As soon as he is called to move an inch out of his comfort zone, he just looks awkward.

    He wouldn't even know the difference.

    In QOS Mathis' girlfriend says: "È un vino qualsiasi."
    Translated: "This is just any kind of wine."
    Which means it's as average as they go.

    Bond laughs and pours himself a glass.

    Not exactly the connoisseur who unmasks villains because he knows Mouton Rothschild is a claret.

    I can even imagine Fleming writing something like: Bond disliked people who drank any kind of wine just for the sake of drinking wine.

    As much as I agree with you I think on that point you're wrong. Mathis and whatever Italian living in the house certainly wouldn't drink bad wine ( there are two traits Italians in general excel, Creation and appreciation of beauty and good food/wine. After all wine doesn't have to be expensive to be of good quality. And I actually can see Flemings Bond drinking it with pleasure, musing about its honest and straight taste compared to some fancy brands.

    I’ve lived in Rome for quite some time and I agree with you that Italians excel at it and few of them would drink bad wine.

    But still, è un vino qualsiasi ;)
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Isn t the putting down of one s own wine just some sort of modesty?
  • Posts: 12,466
    jobo wrote: »
    People just don't like Cornell, and refuse to admit he made something good...

    Hmm... and instead they bring themselves to support tripe like Lulu's cat-lady screeching for TMWTGG.

    Geez that title song in TMWTGG is the worst. A decent performance from Moore and superb villain in Christopher Lee’s Scaramanga help this film avoid the very bottom of my list. I remember when I was really young it used to be one of my favorites. Now indefinitely stuck near the bottom; so much is meh.

  • Posts: 7,507
    What helps TWMGG are the locations. South East Asia provides a very comfortable atmosphere compared to grey, dessert LV, unimaginative use of Aserbaidshan and Istanbul, or sound stage Iceland
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 16,154
    There was a time when I proudly labeled TMWTGG as my least favorite entry. That lasted through the Tim era into GE. Then the three Pierce films that succeeded GE took it's spot film by film.
    With QoS and SP pushing GOLDEN GUN up even further, and really for the stupidest reasons. When compared to the stepbrother angle, the consistent and now expected vandalism of the Gun-barrel, and the non-score of Newman's SP, the comedic kung-fu scenes, and Sheriff Pepper's silliness just doesn't seem so bad to me anymore.
    In addition, Barry's score (and I do tend to consider it middle of the road compared to his other efforts) elevates TMWTGG a few notches above SP for me. Christopher Lee is superb as well.
  • edited November 2017 Posts: 12,837
    It's a bit disconcerting that we take our anger out on TMWTGG when films like QoS exist within the franchise. Let's focus the frustration where it belongs, shall we and Leave TMWTGG alone? It's a good Bond film. :(

    I'm probably one of, if not the biggest QoS critics on here. I really do not like that film at all. Probably my personal least favourite. But at least they're trying. TMWTGG on the other hand just feels so cheap and lazy and half arsed and just plain bad imo. That little stretch of film from the sumo "fight" to the boat chase is without a doubt the lowpoint of the series for me. Can't imagine how fans at the time must have felt with OHMSS only being half a decade behind them. Thank god for TSWLM.
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Semi-controversial opinion: You Know My Name is one of my favorite Bond title songs.

    I agree but I've always thought it was pretty popular. Definitely top five when it comes to Bond themes. Those opening bars and the segue from Bond shooting into the gunbarrel/titles instantly get rid of any bad blood that would have been there from them messing with the gunbarrel.
    jobo wrote: »
    What helps TWMGG are the locations. South East Asia provides a very comfortable atmosphere compared to grey, dessert LV, unimaginative use of Aserbaidshan and Istanbul, or sound stage Iceland

    I'd agree but it just comes across as cheap and seedy to me. Like a bad B movie. Maybe this was the vibe they were going for because of the locations (strip club, kickboxing arena, etc) but for me it just ends up adding to the cheap shlocky B movie vibe that the whole film has.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Geez that title song in TMWTGG is the worst. A decent performance from Moore and superb villain in Christopher Lee’s Scaramanga help this film avoid the very bottom of my list. I remember when I was really young it used to be one of my favorites. Now indefinitely stuck near the bottom; so much is meh.

    I don't have it as the absolute worst for the reasons you listed, but it invariably "circles the bottom of the bowl" (to take a line from that list that was linked on the Bond rankings page) for me. Always been bottom 3 for me.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    It's a bit disconcerting that we take our anger out on TMWTGG when films like QoS exist within the franchise. Let's focus the frustration where it belongs, shall we and Leave TMWTGG alone? It's a good Bond film. :(

    I'm probably one of, if not the biggest QoS critics on here. I really do not like that film at all. Probably my personal least favourite. But at least they're trying. TMWTGG on the other hand just feels so cheap and lazy and half arsed and just plain bad imo. That little stretch of film from the sumo "fight" to the boat chase is without a doubt the lowpoint of the series for me. Can't imagine how fans at the time must have felt with OHMSS only being half a decade behind them. Thank god for TSWLM.

    This.

    MR and OP probably have as many cringeworthy moments but you can forgive them their faults because they at least smash it out the park elsewhere.

    TMWTGG is so lazy and everyone apart from the actors is putting in so little effort it doesn't deserve to get the benefit of the doubt in the slightest.

    Even with DAD there are so many misguided decisions but one thing you don't get is the feeling everybody involved really can't be arsed.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    It's a bit disconcerting that we take our anger out on TMWTGG when films like QoS exist within the franchise. Let's focus the frustration where it belongs, shall we and Leave TMWTGG alone? It's a good Bond film. :(

    I'm probably one of, if not the biggest QoS critics on here. I really do not like that film at all. Probably my personal least favourite. But at least they're trying. TMWTGG on the other hand just feels so cheap and lazy and half arsed and just plain bad imo. That little stretch of film from the sumo "fight" to the boat chase is without a doubt the lowpoint of the series for me. Can't imagine how fans at the time must have felt with OHMSS only being half a decade behind them. Thank god for TSWLM.
    As I've said before, I'm a huge fan of TMWTGG. While there's no doubt that there are 'Carry On' elements sprinkled throughout along with an at times 'raunchy' (particularly during the a$$ cheek grab) soundtrack from Barry, I love the eccentricity of it all just as I like the overt Voodoo Blaxploitation of LALD (one of my fave Bond films) and the cheesy American exaggerations of Vegas in DAF. In the case of the last two, what makes it all work (for me) is Sir Roger Moore. He remains his usual suave, dapper, gentlemanly smooth as ever self while everything goes crazy crazy around him.

    Sting's 'Englishman in New York' comes to mind when I think of those last two Hamilton entries in particular. I find the juxtaposition of his neat, tidy and refined self against all the surrounding shenanigans a real treat. A fish out of water.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    I love the fact we got to witness a Bond film with Roger Moore, the most refined of Englishmen, entering the world of Shaft, Foxy Brown and Black Caesar.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    bondjames wrote: »
    In the case of the last two, what makes it all work (for me) is Sir Roger Moore. He remains his usual suave, dapper, gentlemanly smooth as ever self while everything goes crazy crazy around him.

    That's literally every Moore movie save possibly for FYEO. I just don't see TMWTGG having what it takes to distinguish it from the others, though.

    TSWLM and MR are far more glamorous, featuring better scores, better sets, better scale. Everything is dialled up to ten in TSWLM and eleven in MR. They really bring to life Roger's take on Bond far better than LALD and TMWTGG, as I see it. LALD itself beats TWMTGG because of the eccentric element, but for the most part everything about the movie save for the villain is better (and LALD doesn't do too poorly in that regard either).

    OP has a relentless sense of energy and an actually fairly feasible plot. It's a great Cold War thriller and probably the best action movie of the Moore era. It also never gets derailed from its plot, unlike TWMTGG which spends a solid chunk of its movie on that.

    The only one I can see being comparable is AVTAK, for feeling bogged down by a lack of energy and what not. But it's pretty widely panned already; I understand most people consider it worse than TMWTGG. I don't, but I've still got them ranked next to each other.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @ForYourEyesOnly indeed, MR & TSWLM are far more lavish and stylish entries than TMWTGG. I wasn't comparing TMWTGG with either nor was I ranking it in comparison with them.

    What I was saying is that I personally enjoy the eccentricities of LALD (blaxploitation) and TMWTGG (kung fu) and the overt piss taking in both due to Roger Moore. His polished conservative style, persona and look serve as a great contrast to all of it for me and serves to anchor the films. I realize that I'm probably in the minority and don't expect anyone to agree.

    AVTAK doesn't compare imho, because I just felt he was just too old to be credible any more. If he had made that film 10 years prior it might have been a much better entry for me.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    @bondjames - Fair enough. I have AVTAK and TMWTGG on a similar pedestal. TWMTGG has more energy but squanders it on a huge tangent from the plot. Villains are good in both but the theme song and score in AVTAK are better, which pulls it ahead for me. Not to mention it has a more fulfilling climax and no nonsensical "after-villain fight".
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited November 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @ForYourEyesOnly, I personally like TMWTGG for the same reasons that I like SF. While they may have plots with holes, I enjoy the atmosphere, aesthetics and overall style of both films even though they are very different in these respects. I also find both of them relatively unique, as I do QoS and LTK for different reasons, and enjoy all of these entries. That doesn't mean that I objectively rank them high in my list (only LTK & SF are top 10). However, on any night I can enjoy all four films just as much, and the same goes for DAF.

    With AVTAK, I just find it stale from start to end. A weaker version of OP, which I think succeeds in hitting all the notes far more successfully. A lot of that as I've said, has to do with Moore, who I just didn't find credible any more. I am quickly beginning to feel that way about Craig as well.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,289
    bondjames wrote: »
    @ForYourEyesOnly, I personally like TMWTGG for the same reasons that I like SF. While they may have plots with holes, I enjoy the atmosphere, aesthetics and overall style of both films even though they are very different in these respects. I also find both of them relatively unique, as I do QoS and LTK for different reasons, and enjoy all of these entries. That doesn't mean that I objectively rank them high in my list (only LTK & SF are top 10). However, on any night I can enjoy all four films just as much, and the same goes for DAF.

    With AVTAK, I just find it stale from start to end. A weaker version of OP, which I think succeeds in hitting all the notes far more successfully. A lot of that as I've said, has to do with Moore, who I just didn't find credible any more. I am quickly beginning to feel that way about Craig as well.

    I'm not a huge fan of TMWTGG or AVTAK, but I do feel that they are trying harder in AVTAK, particularly Walken and Jones (who play well off each other), and that makes the difference. The Ascot and Paris scenes aren't bad. And the stretch from when May Day sacrifices herself to the finale on the bridge is pretty awesome.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited November 2017 Posts: 1,984
    @bondjames - Part of Moore's take on Bond was the immense suspension of disbelief. He wasn't very convincing in the fight scenes from well before AVTAK, and there's obviously outrageous elements in all of his movies. So I was used to that and probably more forgiving of his age in AVTAK as a result. It is still a bit jarring, though.
  • Posts: 12,466
    3 years ago I would have said I prefer TMWTGG over AVTAK by a ton. Now, AVTAK is a spot above TMWTGG for me. Both are not among the best Bond films, but lately I have just gotten more enjoyment out of AVTAK. At least both have strong villains.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    echo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    @ForYourEyesOnly, I personally like TMWTGG for the same reasons that I like SF. While they may have plots with holes, I enjoy the atmosphere, aesthetics and overall style of both films even though they are very different in these respects. I also find both of them relatively unique, as I do QoS and LTK for different reasons, and enjoy all of these entries. That doesn't mean that I objectively rank them high in my list (only LTK & SF are top 10). However, on any night I can enjoy all four films just as much, and the same goes for DAF.

    With AVTAK, I just find it stale from start to end. A weaker version of OP, which I think succeeds in hitting all the notes far more successfully. A lot of that as I've said, has to do with Moore, who I just didn't find credible any more. I am quickly beginning to feel that way about Craig as well.

    I'm not a huge fan of TMWTGG or AVTAK, but I do feel that they are trying harder in AVTAK, particularly Walken and Jones (who play well off each other), and that makes the difference. The Ascot and Paris scenes aren't bad. And the stretch from when May Day sacrifices herself to the finale on the bridge is pretty awesome.
    Walken and Jones were indeed great together, and I enjoyed Paris but not Ascot (the age thing again, which was particularly noticeable with M, MP, Q and the gang in the top hats. They looked like they belonged in a seniors retirement residence rather than MI6). Regarding the finale, I liked May Day's sacrifice (although I found it very similar to what King did in Moore's earlier Gold), but didn't like the blimp finale at all (once again, Moore not credible hanging from the rope).
    @bondjames - Part of Moore's take on Bond was the immense suspension of disbelief. He wasn't very convincing in the fight scenes from well before AVTAK, and there's obviously outrageous elements in all of his movies. So I was used to that and probably more forgiving of his age in AVTAK as a result. It is still a bit jarring, though.
    I agree that suspension of disbelief was necessary to really appreciate Moore as Bond @ForYourEyesOnly, but for me it was easier when he was younger. AVTAK was just a step too far and I'm glad he retired from the role after that film.
  • Posts: 16,154
    I love AVTAK, myself. Hits the spot every time when I'm in the mood for it.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I love AVTAK, myself. Hits the spot every time when I'm in the mood for it.

    I'm right there with you.
  • Posts: 12,466
    It is definitely a more enjoyable exit the ones Connery and Brosnan got IMO. AVTAK was a grower, but when I'm in the mood it definitely delivers. Zorin is truly one of the best Bond villains.
  • Posts: 16,154
    Many of the things that fans dislike about VIEW: Roger at 57, Tanya screaming, May Day climbing on top of Bond, the GF influenced caper, etc, don't bother me in the least.
    I even like the firetruck scene as silly as it is.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Those first two can sometimes be a bother for me, but they don't entirely ruin the experience. I actually also like that silly firetruck scene for some reason; I can't even explain why.
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    I'm extremely nostalgic for AVTAK, part of the reason why I enjoy it so much.
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