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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jobo wrote: »
    TND would need more of Kaufman and less of Stamper...

    Very true.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,201
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion: I'm with Carver when he mocks Wai Lin's Kung Fu.
    Another highlight of the film, and definitely the best part of the awful stealth boat climax, along with the part where Bond uses a decoy to trick Stamper into thinking he fell overboard.

    Also like the scene where he has Gupta captive: "Sorry about that, I've tuned out there for a moment, Elliot."
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion: I'm with Carver when he mocks Wai Lin's Kung Fu.
    Another highlight of the film, and definitely the best part of the awful stealth boat climax, along with the part where Bond uses a decoy to trick Stamper into thinking he fell overboard.

    Also like the scene where he has Gupta captive: "Sorry about that, I've tuned out there for a moment, Elliot."
    Yes, that was pretty good too. Agreed.
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I'd agree Silva was a step in that direction, but falls short of someone like Carver. Of course, that also has do with the style and tone the film aims for. Skyfall isn't Tomorrow Never Dies.
    The tone is very different, true. In SF, Silva is there to introduce some levity in a serious film, similar to Selina Kyle in TDKR. I think in both cases the characters are highlights.

    In TND, Carver sort of fits in with the tone of the film imho. So does Graves for DAD (he's far more OTT, but then again so is the film).
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    Posts: 2,005
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is TDKR. I've seen this mentioned quite a few times here and there in context with SF.
    Don't tell me SF has borrowed its plot from another film....
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    @Andi1996Ruegg, TDKR is The Dark Knight Rises, which is the last installment in the Nolan Batman trilogy. I was just pointing out that Silva and Selina Kyle are more light hearted characters in relatively serious films. The plots are quite different, although many believe that SF borrowed heavily in tone, plot & attempt at creating overriding thematic messaging from TDK, which is the prior installment in the Nolan saga.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Pay more attention to your chef
    Posts: 7,057
    bondjames wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I'd agree Silva was a step in that direction, but falls short of someone like Carver. Of course, that also has do with the style and tone the film aims for. Skyfall isn't Tomorrow Never Dies.
    The tone is very different, true. In SF, Silva is there to introduce some levity in a serious film, similar to Selina Kyle in TDKR. I think in both cases the characters are highlights.

    In TND, Carver sort of fits in with the tone of the film imho. So does Graves for DAD (he's far more OTT, but then again so is the film).

    I guess I just want another Tomorrow Never Dies! :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    I'd agree Silva was a step in that direction, but falls short of someone like Carver. Of course, that also has do with the style and tone the film aims for. Skyfall isn't Tomorrow Never Dies.
    The tone is very different, true. In SF, Silva is there to introduce some levity in a serious film, similar to Selina Kyle in TDKR. I think in both cases the characters are highlights.

    In TND, Carver sort of fits in with the tone of the film imho. So does Graves for DAD (he's far more OTT, but then again so is the film).

    I guess I just want another Tomorrow Never Dies! :))
    Nothing wrong with that, and we're likely to get it with a new Bond actor sometime in the future. I'd say 2027 is most likely, to coincide with the annversaries of YOLT, TSWLM and TND itself. We didn't get it last year due to their dithering and they don't have the right man or set up for it at the moment.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,926
    I like the Kauffman scene but a flaw as I see it is Bond uses a gadget to get out of the situation more or less. A minor thing, though.

    But you could say the same about Bond tricking Grant into opening the attaché case in FRWL. A gadget gives him the opportunity he needs.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,905
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'd say 2027 is most likely, to coincide with the annversaries of YOLT, TSWLM and TND itself. We didn't get it last year due to their dithering and they don't have the right man or set up for it at the moment.
    X. Actly.

    christies.com/media-library/images/features/articles/2017/09/05/omega-commanders-watch/inline-james-bond-with-copyright.jpg?w=780
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    Technically Kaufmann was a buffoon. Comic relief. He had a clear shot at Bond, but rather than taking it chose to spend a few minutes giving a self aggrandizing sermon, which ultimately wasted time and gave Bond an opportunity to kill him.

    I think they may have been attempting to evoke the classic Grant/Bond exchange in the train cabin. A battle of wills with Bond on the ropes. The difference is that the earlier sequence was nicely built up over time. We knew of Grant's capabilities as we had seen him being lethal throughout the film. Moreover, the confrontation was visceral and bloody. Here we knew Kaufmann killed an unarmed frightened woman and that's about it. Hardly something to be proud of.

    Despite this, that scene is a highlight of the film for me. This is a perfect example of performances, atmosphere, score and positioning withing the narrative creating an impact. Brosnan & Schiavelli are excellent in the scene and that's what elevates it from the mundane which surrounds it. Moreover, it's a rare moment when this action packed film stops to breathe.

    I'd have to agree with this.

    Kaufmann compared, as someone did above, with the likes of Klebb and Grant is just embarrassing. Is the scene supposed to be dramatic or funny? I'm not sure and you have to blame the director for this rather jarring mix of tones.

    But it is never anything less than entertaining and Brozza plays it very well. I might even go as far to say it's one of his best scenes as Bond. Slightly undermined of course by him pissing himself with laughter as he's giving Carver's men the runaround in the BMW 2 mins later.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion: I'm with Carver when he mocks Wai Lin's Kung Fu.

    Agree entirely. Also love the 'anchorman' line. In fact looking at it does TND have the funniest array of villains of all?* Stamper has his moments too. The only one played dead straight is Gupta.

    *To be fair DAF with Wint & Kidd, Charles Gray's Blofeld, Shady Tree and Bambi & Thumper probably takes that particular title on reflection.
  • LudovicoLudovico
    Posts: 15,220
    It's just that I don't like Wai Lin much as a Bond girl. Her role in the story is too redundant to Bond's. Sure, she is the closest we ever came to see a proper Bond's equal... but that's the problem. So when she's captured, helpless and ridiculed by Carver it makes me happy. That and martial arts often tend to claim to be far more effective than they are in movies.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,201
    TheWizardOfIce wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Technically Kaufmann was a buffoon. Comic relief. He had a clear shot at Bond, but rather than taking it chose to spend a few minutes giving a self aggrandizing sermon, which ultimately wasted time and gave Bond an opportunity to kill him.

    I think they may have been attempting to evoke the classic Grant/Bond exchange in the train cabin. A battle of wills with Bond on the ropes. The difference is that the earlier sequence was nicely built up over time. We knew of Grant's capabilities as we had seen him being lethal throughout the film. Moreover, the confrontation was visceral and bloody. Here we knew Kaufmann killed an unarmed frightened woman and that's about it. Hardly something to be proud of.

    Despite this, that scene is a highlight of the film for me. This is a perfect example of performances, atmosphere, score and positioning withing the narrative creating an impact. Brosnan & Schiavelli are excellent in the scene and that's what elevates it from the mundane which surrounds it. Moreover, it's a rare moment when this action packed film stops to breathe.

    I'd have to agree with this.

    Kaufmann compared, as someone did above, with the likes of Klebb and Grant is just embarrassing. Is the scene supposed to be dramatic or funny? I'm not sure and you have to blame the director for this rather jarring mix of tones.

    But it is never anything less than entertaining and Brozza plays it very well. I might even go as far to say it's one of his best scenes as Bond. Slightly undermined of course by him pissing himself with laughter as he's giving Carver's men the runaround in the BMW 2 mins later.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    My controversial opinion: I'm with Carver when he mocks Wai Lin's Kung Fu.

    Agree entirely. Also love the 'anchorman' line. In fact looking at it does TND have the funniest array of villains of all?* Stamper has his moments too. The only one played dead straight is Gupta.

    *To be fair DAF with Wint & Kidd, Charles Gray's Blofeld, Shady Tree and Bambi & Thumper probably takes that particular title on reflection.

    I find Tee Hee and Koskov pretty funny too.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Om the topic of funny villains i think Gobinda and Kamal Khan deserbe a mention. Not to forget the delightfully parodic and obnoxious general Orlov.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,201
    You're right, Orlov is very funny too.

    That speech during the Russian counsel always makes me chuckle. One of the highlights of the film and one of the best scenes sans Bond in the whole franchise.

    And I'm not even OP's biggest fan.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,532
    Love that scene too , but mainly for Peter Lamonts fabulous set with revolving table!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Every scene with Orlov is deliciously watchable.

    There aren't many people who can compete with Berkoff when it comes to the art of perfectly judged ham. Bardem came very close but just overdid it ever so slightly to my mind.

    Ham is a difficult technique to nail. It's like cooking scallops, go ever so slightly too far and it's ruined. See Kaufmann debate above for someone who overlooked it a little and ended up in broad comedy territory.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    edited January 2018 Posts: 17,814
    General Orlov is one of the highlights of OP. Nice balance between funny and dangerous, and really well played by Steven Berkoff.
  • W_Glass_90W_Glass_90 Virginia
    Posts: 24
    Steven Berkoff in general is an all around funny actor, that's why his role as Victor Maitland in "Beverly Hills Cop" with Eddie Murphy was a perfect Comedic combination.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,328
    To me Brosnan plays Bond fine in TND, but his (former) relationship with whatshername who's now 'made her bed' with Carver and still comes back to Bond (after he's been manhandled by Carver's goons) makes no sense to me. I din't know but I care little about my exes and Bond in my mind would do the same, especially if one was now sleeping with a guy whom he suspects of wanting to start a war.
    So he's supposed to mourn someone who he probably doesn't care too much about, while beeing threatened by anassassin played for laughs. Without Paris there the scen would've been perfect. But with her it's a mess. Why did we need to see her there in the first place? The tv news would've been enough and far more effective.

    It's the same in TWINE when B's Bond goes over to Elektra after shooting her at point blank range. That isn't Bond. He keeps his emotions out of his work.

    And yes, they could've made Kaufmann more dangerous by showing him kill somebody before. Then at least he'd be a threat like Jaws. Personally I don't like Jaws, too cartoonish to my taste, but at least he's effective as a threat.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    Posts: 2,005
    @CommanderRoss

    But Bond does care. Craigbond about Vesper, Mathis, M, Fields, etc.
    Daltonbond cares especially and Lazenby does too. Moore cares a lot too.

    Connery may be the one that is the coldest sob of them all.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,164
    Andi1996Ruegg wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss

    But Bond does care. Craigbond about Vesper, Mathis, M, Fields, etc.
    Daltonbond cares especially and Lazenby does too. Moore cares a lot too.

    Connery may be the one that is the coldest sob of them all.

    Tania, and Kerim.
    Jill in GF
    Domino, especially the beach scene with her.
    Aki in YOLT.

  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,328
    Andi1996Ruegg wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss

    But Bond does care. Craigbond about Vesper, Mathis, M, Fields, etc.
    Daltonbond cares especially and Lazenby does too. Moore cares a lot too.

    Connery may be the one that is the coldest sob of them all.

    Wel lthere's a huge difference between an ex you left with the word 'I'll be right back'
    and your girlfriend/ wife dying in your arms don't you agree? And Fields isn't an ex, she's an innocent girl working at the embassy. Caring about her has nothing to do with their sex but everything with Bond caring about the people he works with. AFAK TND is the only time an ex is pulled into the story, as beeing an ex from his private life instead of a girl whom he met on a mission. 'what was it James, did I get too close? ' says it all if you ask me. The whole premise is wrong. It would've worked far better if he hadn't known her, but just seduced her.
  • Andi1996RueggAndi1996Ruegg Hello. It's me, Evelyn Tremble.
    Posts: 2,005
    Benny wrote: »
    Andi1996Ruegg wrote: »
    @CommanderRoss

    But Bond does care. Craigbond about Vesper, Mathis, M, Fields, etc.
    Daltonbond cares especially and Lazenby does too. Moore cares a lot too.

    Connery may be the one that is the coldest sob of them all.

    Tania, and Kerim.
    Jill in GF
    Domino, especially the beach scene with her.
    Aki in YOLT.

    Tilly too actually. I said "may be" ;)
    On second thought, yes Bond cared, all of them.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    OK, so you don't care at all, if you're ex girl friend who you have just met again after years was killed and is lying dead in front of you?? Seriously, Bond is human and not a robot.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    And how do you know that he has not had any feelings for Paris? You know that Bond always has to decide between his emotions and his job.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited January 2018 Posts: 11,189
    Irma Bunt I find pretty funny. Steppat definitely camped the role up.

    "Not ground...ice"
    "It has been so nice...to cure you"
    "Knock them out of ze vay"
    "Idiott!" (As she's yelling at one of the goons in the car)
    Her expression as she surprises Bond in Ruby's bed.

    Yet we are meant to hate her at the end for killing Tracy.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,358
    You forgot the best part.

    *Explosion.* Ehhhh...
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    GBF wrote: »
    OK, so you don't care at all, if you're ex girl friend who you have just met again after years was killed and is lying dead in front of you?? Seriously, Bond is human and not a robot.
    As opposed to certain people on the board.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited January 2018 Posts: 23,883
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    To me Brosnan plays Bond fine in TND, but his (former) relationship with whatshername who's now 'made her bed' with Carver and still comes back to Bond (after he's been manhandled by Carver's goons) makes no sense to me. I din't know but I care little about my exes and Bond in my mind would do the same, especially if one was now sleeping with a guy whom he suspects of wanting to start a war.
    So he's supposed to mourn someone who he probably doesn't care too much about, while beeing threatened by anassassin played for laughs. Without Paris there the scen would've been perfect. But with her it's a mess. Why did we need to see her there in the first place? The tv news would've been enough and far more effective.

    It's the same in TWINE when B's Bond goes over to Elektra after shooting her at point blank range. That isn't Bond. He keeps his emotions out of his work.

    And yes, they could've made Kaufmann more dangerous by showing him kill somebody before. Then at least he'd be a threat like Jaws. Personally I don't like Jaws, too cartoonish to my taste, but at least he's effective as a threat.
    I'm with you on the women thing @CommanderRoss. This is what has instinctively always rubbed me the wrong way about both TWINE & TND. There's something about that scene in the hotel that's a bit off for me, from before she walks in. To be frank, I thought he was going to cry. Ultimately, I believe it's a matter of composure and keeping one's emotion in check, particularly as a trained spy. I won't even get into the TWINE Baku breakdown which takes things to a whole new level of melodrama. I've given some thought to it and believe it just comes down to Brosnan not being very credible in these sort of scenes (for me at least). He comes across a bit effeminate to me, especially with his capacity for overacting.

    Given Broccoli's apparent proclivity for wanting more emotion in Bond films which she produces, I'm glad she switched to Craig, because at least he is better able to deliver these scenes without crossing that fine line imho. Having said that, I think Moore struck the perfect balance in the two scenes which referenced Tracy during his tenure. Subtle, but touching.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,198
    Well, I still find Brosnan really good in this two scenes. Just compare this to the scene in SP where Blofeld wants to show Madelein her father's suicide. Another negative example is the "Della" scene in LTK.
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