Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited March 2018 Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2018 Posts: 23,883
    I think they tried to do too much in SP. There were more action sequences than in SF but they sort of fell flat for me. I didn't feel any tension or suspense. Even with Hinx, I only felt some consequence towards the end in the kitchen car.

    I'm always tense when viewing the PTS in SF, love the stylish suspense in Shanghai (including Newman's tech score) and enjoy the entire Home Alone sequence (it's my favourite finale since GE). I actually think the PTS is one of the best sequences in some time. It starts with Ronson and then moves outside to the cars, the bike & the train. The transition between each vehicle is really well done and it has an instinctual and unpredictable quality to it.

    Nothing in SP came even close for me. It all just gave off a strange whiff of been there, done that to me.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I find it funny that anyone calls the climax to SF, the Home Alone sequence. Honestly, if anything, it's an obvious homage to the original STRAW DOGS. Period.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.
    I agree with this. I enjoyed Spectre's action more. In fact, at times I found quite exhilarating. Even in the rather poorly conceived plane chase I loved Bond's cockiness (waving at Hinx) and the plane crashing through the house.
  • Posts: 12,837
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.
    I agree with this. I enjoyed Spectre's action more. In fact, at times I found quite exhilarating. Even in the rather poorly conceived plane chase I loved Bond's cockiness (waving at Hinx) and the plane crashing through the house.

    I thought SP in general was sort of like a refined SF. It was weaker in some ways, Waltz wasn't a patch on Bardem for example and Newman managed to be even worse by not bothering at all, but overall I thought they did a good job of carrying on in the same direction while learning from their mistakes. So the tone is pretty much the same, they're still doing interesting stuff with Bond as a character and they're still reintroducing all the tropes but the pretentious side of it is gone (there is that stupid caption after the gunbarrel but what I mean is instead of smugly making fun of exploding pens, we actually get an exploding watch), the action felt more exciting, the origin story angle is finally done, and we get even more classic Bond stuff than in SF (the DB10 and finally a massive henchman to actually give Craig a challenge).

    I like both films a lot but I thought SP was better. It was basically the film I'd been waiting for since CR and even though I know it's very flawed, it's still top five for me because they ticked so many of my personal boxes.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.
    I agree with this. I enjoyed Spectre's action more. In fact, at times I found quite exhilarating. Even in the rather poorly conceived plane chase I loved Bond's cockiness (waving at Hinx) and the plane crashing through the house.

    I thought SP in general was sort of like a refined SF. It was weaker in some ways, Waltz wasn't a patch on Bardem for example and Newman managed to be even worse by not bothering at all, but overall I thought they did a good job of carrying on in the same direction while learning from their mistakes. So the tone is pretty much the same, they're still doing interesting stuff with Bond as a character and they're still reintroducing all the tropes but the pretentious side of it is gone (there is that stupid caption after the gunbarrel but what I mean is instead of smugly making fun of exploding pens, we actually get an exploding watch), the action felt more exciting, the origin story angle is finally done, and we get even more classic Bond stuff than in SF (the DB10 and finally a massive henchman to actually give Craig a challenge).

    I like both films a lot but I thought SP was better. It was basically the film I'd been waiting for since CR and even though I know it's very flawed, it's still top five for me because they ticked so many of my personal boxes.
    Once again, we're in agreement here. We all know Spectre has its flaws, but it also takes several of the good things Skyfall has to offer and integrates them successfully into the classic style of Bond film. Of the Craig films, it's a close second for me after CR.
  • Posts: 727
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.

    It's true. He didn't want to ski because he's not 23 anymore. It's all in the times interview with Mendes.
  • Posts: 16,162
    I think Eon should mandate that their 007 incumbent be okay with ski sequences in the Bond films regardless if the actor can ski in real life or not.
    I'd much have preferred a ski chase in SP than that rather indifferent plane chase whatever it was.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Is it a controversial opinion to say that my favorite part of spectre was the plane chase
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 684
    Is it a controversial opinion to say that my favorite part of spectre was the plane chase
    I would think so -- but then again I'm not sure, is there a consensus on the best part of SP? The Pale King? Or L'Américain perhaps? For me it's the Bellucci sequence, but those other two are right behind.

    I will say the plane chase was less underwhelming on first viewing in the theater than the car chase.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    The train fight has potential but because it isn’t brutal enough and we don’t feel the hits like in CR/QOS it ends up being underwhelming I feel.

    The car chase has no potential and is lathargic beyond belief

    But I do find the plane sequence exciting because it’s something completely original, cool, filled with stunts and practical effects that could only be achieved with a production as massive as bond and something that really is unique which is what I go to see a bond film for. An exciting experience and I feel that there was only 1 in spectre which is sad.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 17,753
    I struggle so much with liking SP that I can't find any highlights. It's just a very, very flat movie, where everything feel underwhelming. L'Américain if anything, or Bond's apartment - but's that's just because we get to see his apartment more than the sequence itself.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films.
    It would have been an awesome film. There's *much* to like in it which is totally buried by the stuff we imagine here to be left out. The waste of production value and talent is what makes me so angry about what SP utlimately became.

    Actually, I did a personal cut for me - it ended up a shot film but it really works this way. I left all the crap out at Blofeld's HQ, the MI-6 stuff and just let the whole Nine Eyes story in. It works ... and the only things left of actual SPECTRE is their fabulous meeting in Rome. I like the movie this way.

  • edited March 2018 Posts: 17,753
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I struggle so much with liking SP that I can't find any highlights. It's just a very, very flat movie, where everything feel underwhelming.

    That's the issue for me too. The scene I like best, Mr. White, is still less than it should be.

    It really is. From the trailers (if I remember them correctly) I was expecting this to be one of the highlights, and remember thinking "Finally!" when I saw SP at the cinema. After the sequence I was sitting there thinking, "Is this it?"
  • Posts: 12,466
    I love the Mr. White scene in SP; I didn't think it was lacking. I'm glad they left out his past with Bond in CR and QOS. It would have felt tacky. The lines were good, and the final interacting with Bond giving up his gun and White deciding to help just worked very well. Definitely my favorite scene in SP - I still love it.
  • SeanCraigSeanCraig Germany
    Posts: 732
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I love the Mr. White scene in SP; I didn't think it was lacking. I'm glad they left out his past with Bond in CR and QOS. It would have felt tacky. The lines were good, and the final interacting with Bond giving up his gun and White deciding to help just worked very well. Definitely my favorite scene in SP - I still love it.
    I also love this whole scene - my personal highlight in the movie.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I didn’t have any problems with it. SP certainly ranks low overall for me, but it does have its moments that elevate it above the very bottom for me personally. A decent PTS, great SPECTRE meeting scene, train fight, and most of the scenes in Austria (including the one with Mr. White) are the big highlights for me. Some good stuff.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.

    It's true. He didn't want to ski because he's not 23 anymore. It's all in the times interview with Mendes.

    How's being able to ski even relevant? There's no way he would be allowed to ski himself anyway for insurance purposes. When Laz nicked a pair of skis on the set and had a quick go he got a bollocking.

    The train fight has potential but because it isn’t brutal enough and we don’t feel the hits like in CR/QOS it ends up being underwhelming I feel.

    The lack of brutality and blood is it's big flaw but the sight of Bautista smashing his way through the train is pretty fearsome. It's just a shame his character was pathetically underused by not really doing anything at all and then dying before we even start the final reel.
    But I do find the plane sequence exciting because it’s something completely original, cool, filled with stunts and practical effects that could only be achieved with a production as massive as bond and something that really is unique which is what I go to see a bond film for. An exciting experience and I feel that there was only 1 in spectre which is sad.

    The plane sequence is utterly inane.

    What is Bond trying to achieve? Crashing his plane into the cars and gambling that he and Madeline will survive seems a ridiculously random gamble. Why not just tail them?

    And then when he gormlessly knocks the wings off the whole rest of the sequence then relies on pure luck for Bond to succeed in his objective.

    And given no one would sign off on really flying a plane that close to some trees there's less real stuntwork in there than you are claiming.

    The start when the plane flies alongside the car is nice but it quickly goes downhill and of course Newman's insipid score hardly helps things along.
  • Posts: 15,115
    mattjoes wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.
    I agree with this. I enjoyed Spectre's action more. In fact, at times I found quite exhilarating. Even in the rather poorly conceived plane chase I loved Bond's cockiness (waving at Hinx) and the plane crashing through the house.

    I thought SP in general was sort of like a refined SF. It was weaker in some ways, Waltz wasn't a patch on Bardem for example and Newman managed to be even worse by not bothering at all, but overall I thought they did a good job of carrying on in the same direction while learning from their mistakes. So the tone is pretty much the same, they're still doing interesting stuff with Bond as a character and they're still reintroducing all the tropes but the pretentious side of it is gone (there is that stupid caption after the gunbarrel but what I mean is instead of smugly making fun of exploding pens, we actually get an exploding watch), the action felt more exciting, the origin story angle is finally done, and we get even more classic Bond stuff than in SF (the DB10 and finally a massive henchman to actually give Craig a challenge).

    I like both films a lot but I thought SP was better. It was basically the film I'd been waiting for since CR and even though I know it's very flawed, it's still top five for me because they ticked so many of my personal boxes.
    Once again, we're in agreement here. We all know Spectre has its flaws, but it also takes several of the good things Skyfall has to offer and integrates them successfully into the classic style of Bond film. Of the Craig films, it's a close second for me after CR.

    I find SF to be the superior movie but I enjoy SP more.
  • edited March 2018 Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.

    It's true. He didn't want to ski because he's not 23 anymore. It's all in the times interview with Mendes.

    Don't get this at all. All he'd have to do is some beginner level stuff at most right? Then the stuntman could do the rest. Brosnan fell over when he had to ski to the bottom of a slope and meet the press filming TWINE, but the chase still looks fine in the final film because they used stuntmen.

    I think it's good having an actor who likes doing as much of the stunts himself as possible, but not if he's so proud that when he realises he won't be able to do most of an action scene it gets changed. Just seems weird too. He didn't demand the crane jump be made smaller so he could do it himself did he. I genuinely don't see what the issue is. He must just have really not wanted to ski at all, but then some light skiing seems fairly tame in comparison to a fight scene with a guy as big as Dave Bautista doesn't it. Maybe he has a weird phobia or had a bad experience once or something.
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.

    It's true. He didn't want to ski because he's not 23 anymore. It's all in the times interview with Mendes.

    Don't get this at all. All he'd have to do is some beginner level stuff at most right? Then the stuntman could do the rest. Brosnan fell over when he had to ski to the bottom of a slope and meet the press filming TWINE, but the chase still looks fine in the final film because they used stuntmen.

    I think it's good having an actor who likes doing as much of the stunts himself as possible, but not if he's so proud that when he realises he won't be able to do most of an action scene it gets changed. Just seems weird too. He didn't demand the crane jump be made smaller so he could do it himself did he. I genuinely don't see what the issue is. He must just have really not wanted to ski at all, but then some light skiing seems fairly tame in comparison to a fight scene with a guy as big as Dave Bautista doesn't it. Maybe he has a weird phobia or had a bad experience once or something.

    I thought it was partly due to his knee he damaged during filming.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I get your point about not wanting a carbon copy. I don't think they gave us that in the 60s, 70s or 80s. The films are quite distinct despite having tonal consistency. That's why they are such great repeat watches.

    This current regime hasn't got a clue how to do formula. Either that or they couldn't care less. One gets the impression it's beneath them. They're better than the series and its cinematic history. No, they want to create art. That's why they cast Craig, why they hired P&W and why they are on the current path. Brosnan was a remnant of Cubby's time, and when his contract was up, he was gone.


    I wouldn't say they couldn't care less about the Bond formula. Spectre was quite visibly their attempt at making a formula Bond film. But Sam Mendes couldn't help but inject 'poignant' drama where it was not needed. Imagine Spectre with all the whistles taken out. All the godawful fraternal drama which was so serious that they circled back around to being campy (and Austin Powers like). Imagine Spectre without the contrived callbacks to the previous films. Madeline as just a temporal Bond girl who becomes thirsty for Bond rather than the poorly executed this-is-the-one woman. Blofeld cackling like a maniac with Christoph at his hammiest. It would be stupendously better.
    It would have been better without brothergate, with a tighter script and with a lighter tone certainly, but I think it would have fallen into the 'by the numbers' overly predictable TND category.

    I don't think they know how to do formula. It appears to be foreign to them. Look at the action in SP for instance. Is there really anything there which we can hold up with the great scenes this series has delivered over the past 50+ years? Even the touted Hinx fight was a rehash of FRWL/LALD/TSWLM with similar moves.

    Only Campbell has been able to deliver that properly for them.

    I don't think their heart's in it.

    I'd have to agree with this I'm afraid. How else to explain the shocking script supervision on SP? And the obsession with other projects when they need to be concentrating on putting right the mistakes made with SP?

    But credit where it's due - the Hinx train fight is a lot better than the ones from LALD and TSWLM and right up there as one of the fights of the series. It is the only standout action scene though.

    I thought the PTS was really good too, CGI aside. And the car chase was a bit of a let down but the ending gave me goosebumps. Overall I thought Mendes stepped his game up with the action compared to SF. The PTS and the Hinx fight felt really dangerous and exciting in a way none of the action scenes in a way none of the ones in SF did imo.

    I didn't think that the action in SF was bad, it was really well shot and coreographed and everything and I love the finale, but it just felt a bit flat compared to Campbell's movies. But I thought Mendes did a much better job in SP.

    The plane chase was a bit of a dud though. Not sure if there's any truth to the Craig not wanting to ski rumours but their original plan was so much better imo. I think Newman didn't help either. When I read the leaks I pictured Bond coming into view in the plane being a big moment as the Bond theme kicks in, like when he crashes through the wall in the tank in GE. Instead we got, well, I can't even remember. I like the Mendes movies but why did he have to bring Newman with him.

    It's true. He didn't want to ski because he's not 23 anymore. It's all in the times interview with Mendes.

    Don't get this at all. All he'd have to do is some beginner level stuff at most right? Then the stuntman could do the rest. Brosnan fell over when he had to ski to the bottom of a slope and meet the press filming TWINE, but the chase still looks fine in the final film because they used stuntmen.

    I think it's good having an actor who likes doing as much of the stunts himself as possible, but not if he's so proud that when he realises he won't be able to do most of an action scene it gets changed. Just seems weird too. He didn't demand the crane jump be made smaller so he could do it himself did he. I genuinely don't see what the issue is. He must just have really not wanted to ski at all, but then some light skiing seems fairly tame in comparison to a fight scene with a guy as big as Dave Bautista doesn't it. Maybe he has a weird phobia or had a bad experience once or something.

    After the motorcycle fiasco in SF, I don t get that argument, either.
  • Posts: 727
    The spectre chase scene remains a mystery to me. I have never seen a chase scene that is so lethargic. Combine that with the fact that it was the same year Mad Max and Rogue Nation came out which blew it out if the water.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    The spectre chase scene remains a mystery to me. I have never seen a chase scene that is so lethargic. Combine that with the fact that it was the same year Mad Max and Rogue Nation came out which blew it out if the water.

    They were clearly going for something that didn't come off. Probably also something to do with Mendes not being an action director, although the action is something I generally defend SP on. It's the context which bothers me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I loved that car chase.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I loved that car chase.

    Me too.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,395
    I don't mind it as much as some, but can easily see where the criticism comes from.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I don't mind it as much as some, but can easily see where the criticism comes from.

    Yeah, if you’re looking for Ronin, or QoS MKII (as some were expecting) this isn’t it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2018 Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    I don't mind it as much as some, but can easily see where the criticism comes from.

    Yeah, if you’re looking for Ronin, or QoS MKII (as some were expecting) this isn’t it.

    Is that gold standard (Ronin more than QOS to be fair) not what we should be looking for - and expecting - in a Bond film?

    Instead of basically an episode of Top Gear.

    'We're forever arguing here which supercar is the best to drive across a deserted European capital at night. Sick of our bickering producers told us to shut up and then sent us to Rome to find out.
    I was the first to arrive in the spectacular Aston Martin DB10...'
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    I’ve lived in Rome and I can assure you, the city was never as empty as in SP :))
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