Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited August 2018 Posts: 7,020
    jobo wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    And Bond (Moore Bond!) is kind of a jerk in the film. I love it. Has little patience with people, beds Andrea while Goodnight is hiding in the closet and then tells her her turn will come later!


    I think it's a step too far. Bond might be ruthess and cynical at times, but he should never be an outright jerk and an asshole like that! That's at least my opinion.

    I could never imagine Fleming's Bond acting like that. Womanizer yes, disrespectful misogynist no...

    I know, it's pushing the limits. Bond may be a womanizer, but he's generally chivalrous and respectful of women, even though apparently quite a few people have been saying otherwise for years. But I just find it intriguing to see him behaving like that in TMWTGG. Subtextually, it's as if Bond is trying to compete with Scaramanga's alpha-maleness. He believes he is quite literally under threat by him, so he becomes a bit of a bastard, more cruel and callous.

    I also just appreciate the non-PC nature of the scene. While the character of Bond has admirable qualities, he isn't meant to be a role model in an absolute sense.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    mattjoes wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    And Bond (Moore Bond!) is kind of a jerk in the film. I love it. Has little patience with people, beds Andrea while Goodnight is hiding in the closet and then tells her her turn will come later!


    I think it's a step too far. Bond might be ruthess and cynical at times, but he should never be an outright jerk and an asshole like that! That's at least my opinion.

    I could never imagine Fleming's Bond acting like that. Womanizer yes, disrespectful misogynist no...

    I know, it's pushing the limits. Bond may be a womanizer, but he's generally chivalrous and respectful of women, even though apparently quite a few people have been saying otherwise for years. But I just find it intriguing to see him behaving like that in TMWTGG. Subtextually, it's as if Bond is trying to compete with Scaramanga's alpha-maleness. He believes he is quite literally under threat by him, so he becomes a bit of a bastard, more cruel and callous.

    I also just appreciate the non-PC nature of the scene.
    I very much agree, especially on Bond's state of mind and the impact on his behaviour, including his treatment of Andrea. For a lot of the film he feels that a famed hitman is after him, and he doesn't have time for pleasantries. Only Moore could make this work, because of his disarming looks, wit and easy charm. He could play a little nasty while still being elegant about it. Connery would have seemed too tough.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    mattjoes wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    And Bond (Moore Bond!) is kind of a jerk in the film. I love it. Has little patience with people, beds Andrea while Goodnight is hiding in the closet and then tells her her turn will come later!


    I think it's a step too far. Bond might be ruthess and cynical at times, but he should never be an outright jerk and an asshole like that! That's at least my opinion.

    I could never imagine Fleming's Bond acting like that. Womanizer yes, disrespectful misogynist no...

    I know, it's pushing the limits. Bond may be a womanizer, but he's generally chivalrous and respectful of women, even though apparently quite a few people have been saying otherwise for years. But I just find it intriguing to see him behaving like that in TMWTGG. Subtextually, it's as if Bond is trying to compete with Scaramanga's alpha-maleness. He believes he is quite literally under threat by him, so he becomes a bit of a bastard, more cruel and callous.

    I also just appreciate the non-PC nature of the scene. While the character of Bond has admirable qualities, he isn't meant to be a role model in an absolute sense.



    I can tolerate him being tough on Andrea. She is the mistress of the assassin sent to kill him, an important witness, by the looks of it a villainess. No time for Mod Edit (Just like I can tolerate how he acts with Tanya in FRLW when it appears she has betrayed him and is responsible for Kerim's death).

    I have a bigger problem with how he treats Goodnight in that bedroom scene. It is a pointless, silly and uncomfortable scene. A little sickening. Was it supposed to be funny? If so, the humour is completely lost on me...
  • Posts: 12,462
    That Guardian ranking is so against my own. Seriously, TLD and LTK right near the bottom? SP at #6?!?!? OHMSS waaaay down at #15, and YOLT at #1??? I realize everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but wow this list is just so off for me.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Moore was made more callous in GG because the producers wanted to toughen him up to emulate Connery. Moore wasn't happy about this and managed to get the performance and script that suited his portrayal of Bond in the next film.
  • Posts: 12,462
    I’m not crazy about TMWTGG, or Moore’s performance in it. He’s good, but I prefer most of his other Bond performances I think, except maybe MR. That was also far too high on the list for my liking; sadly, for a while now, TMWTGG is bottom tier for me. Oh and GE at 18 was also way too low.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    On the film rankings, funny, some discussion already seems to place BOND 25 as #25.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    On the film rankings, funny, some discussion already seems to place BOND 25 as #25.

    It is similar to Trump in the 2016 election.
  • Posts: 11,189
    mattjoes wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    And Bond (Moore Bond!) is kind of a jerk in the film. I love it. Has little patience with people, beds Andrea while Goodnight is hiding in the closet and then tells her her turn will come later!


    I think it's a step too far. Bond might be ruthess and cynical at times, but he should never be an outright jerk and an asshole like that! That's at least my opinion.

    I could never imagine Fleming's Bond acting like that. Womanizer yes, disrespectful misogynist no...

    I know, it's pushing the limits. Bond may be a womanizer, but he's generally chivalrous and respectful of women, even though apparently quite a few people have been saying otherwise for years.

    I don't remember Fleming's character ever laying his hand to a woman like he does several times in the earlier films.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
    I thought he once said AVTAK was his least favourite of his 007 films because he thought it was too violent.
  • Posts: 17,740
    His comments about FYEO was regarding the kicking of the car with Locque off the cliff, wasn't it?
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
    I thought he once said AVTAK was his least favourite of his 007 films because he thought it was too violent.

    He didn't like Zorin gunning people down in the mine.
  • Zorin91Zorin91 Stavanger, Norway
    edited August 2018 Posts: 10
    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/aug/24/james-bond-on-film-ranked

    I'm a huge Bond fan and I might be in the minority in many of the general opinions,but this is in my opinioin a ridiculouous ranking, and in many ways also a controversial ranking :P I certainly can't beøieve at least 1/4 of his bottom half, and in my personal opinion (which might be wrong among others) many more of the movies in his bottom half are completely misplaced.
  • Posts: 7,507
    His comments about FYEO was regarding the kicking of the car with Locque off the cliff, wasn't it?


    Yes, that's the scene he objected to. I agree with him but for another reason. I think just letting the car fall would have been more elegant and symbolic. More cold even.

    However, of all of Moore's coldest kills nothing beats the scene in TSWLM where he throws the henchman of the roof and then casually jokes about it...
  • Posts: 17,740
    jobo wrote: »
    His comments about FYEO was regarding the kicking of the car with Locque off the cliff, wasn't it?


    Yes, that's the scene he objected to. I agree with him but for another reason. I think just letting the car fall would have been more elegant and symbolic. More cold even.
    Good point. If the weight of the dove pin could have been enough for the car to fall by itself (the car would probably have fallen down the cliff eventually anyway), the more symbolic it would have been.
    jobo wrote: »
    However, of all of Moore's coldest kills nothing beats the scene in TSWLM where he throws the henchman of the roof and then casually jokes about it...

    Also a good point. Moore's Bond wasn't all about the jokes. He could be cold-hearted if he needed to.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess.
  • Posts: 17,740
    Agree. Even if Moore himself wasn't crazy about it, I think it's a great scene. FYEO is high up in my ranking, and scenes like this is one of the reasons.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I think FYEO is hands down Moore's best film! His best performance as well.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Agree. Even if Moore himself wasn't crazy about it, I think it's a great scene. FYEO is high up in my ranking, and scenes like this is one of the reasons.

    It makes you wish Moore had been given more scenes like this.

    He was also great in the scene in OP where he confronts General Orloff on the train.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).
  • Posts: 19,339
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).

    Not forgetting the ruthless way takes out the shooter in the tree in MR .
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    barryt007 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).

    Not forgetting the ruthless way takes out the shooter in the tree in MR .
    Definitely. I completely forgot about that one. MR is a bit lighter in tone generally, but I think Moore is effortless in it. There are still some great serious bits, like when he pushes Goodhead away after the centrifuge and looks up at Chang for instance, or the globe shootout finale which is really well done.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).
    Fine observation.

    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
    I thought he once said AVTAK was his least favourite of his 007 films because he thought it was too violent.

    He didn't like Zorin gunning people down in the mine.
    And yet with touches like that, Zorin becomes quite a bit more repulsive than the usual Bond villain, especially since he is often all smiles in those cruel moments. And that in turn gives the film a greater sense of tension than usual, and a certain vitality. It's one of its strengths.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,740
    jobo wrote: »
    I think FYEO is hands down Moore's best film! His best performance as well.

    It's my favourite of his, as well – and I agree with this being his best performance.
    Agree. Even if Moore himself wasn't crazy about it, I think it's a great scene. FYEO is high up in my ranking, and scenes like this is one of the reasons.

    It makes you wish Moore had been given more scenes like this.

    He was also great in the scene in OP where he confronts General Orloff on the train.

    Agree. Moore was good in scenes like this, and a few more like these wouldn't have hurt.

    Good point about the Orloff confrontation scene. I really like that one.
  • Posts: 19,339
    jobo wrote: »
    I think FYEO is hands down Moore's best film! His best performance as well.

    It's my favourite of his, as well – and I agree with this being his best performance.
    Agree. Even if Moore himself wasn't crazy about it, I think it's a great scene. FYEO is high up in my ranking, and scenes like this is one of the reasons.

    It makes you wish Moore had been given more scenes like this.

    He was also great in the scene in OP where he confronts General Orloff on the train.

    Agree. Moore was good in scenes like this, and a few more like these wouldn't have hurt.

    Good point about the Orloff confrontation scene. I really like that one.

    I love the shock on the young Russian soldier's face as MooreBond puts a bullet dead straight into his head.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jobo wrote: »
    I think FYEO is hands down Moore's best film! His best performance as well.

    It's my favourite of his, as well – and I agree with this being his best performance.

    Same here, and it is symptomatic that FYEO was particularly popular in Norway.

    Another Norwegian oddity is that Cec Linder has been the most popular Felix Leiter. I fall in with that peculiarity as well. He is just so damn sympathetic.
  • Posts: 17,740
    barryt007 wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I think FYEO is hands down Moore's best film! His best performance as well.

    It's my favourite of his, as well – and I agree with this being his best performance.
    Agree. Even if Moore himself wasn't crazy about it, I think it's a great scene. FYEO is high up in my ranking, and scenes like this is one of the reasons.

    It makes you wish Moore had been given more scenes like this.

    He was also great in the scene in OP where he confronts General Orloff on the train.

    Agree. Moore was good in scenes like this, and a few more like these wouldn't have hurt.

    Good point about the Orloff confrontation scene. I really like that one.

    I love the shock on the young Russian soldier's face as MooreBond puts a bullet dead straight into his head.

    Agree! Great scene.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I feel like the more he grew into the role (TSWLM onwards) the better Rog pulled off the ruthless aspects - namely those already mentioned.

    He seems much more relaxed in his portrayal post-Golden Gun and it allowed him to shift from the lighter moments to the more ruthless with ease. Conversely, I think the ‘harder edged’ instances in LALD and particularly TMWTGG, come off a little too Connery-lite. Post 74’ he really nails the tone of each film effortlessly imo.
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