Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 19,339
    RC7 wrote: »
    I feel like the more he grew into the role (TSWLM onwards) the better Rog pulled off the ruthless aspects - namely those already mentioned.

    He seems much more relaxed in his portrayal post-Golden Gun and it allowed him to shift from the lighter moments to the more ruthless with ease. Conversely.., I think the ‘harder edged’ instances in LALD and particularly TMWTGG, come off a little too Connery-lite. Post 74’ he really nails the tone of each film effortlessly imo.

    That’s exactly how I feel about it x he seems a lot more confident .
  • Posts: 1,916
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).
    Fine observation.

    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
    I thought he once said AVTAK was his least favourite of his 007 films because he thought it was too violent.

    He didn't like Zorin gunning people down in the mine.
    And yet with touches like that, Zorin becomes quite a bit more repulsive than the usual Bond villain, especially since he is often all smiles in those cruel moments. And that in turn gives the film a greater sense of tension than usual, and a certain vitality. It's one of its strengths.

    I think this illustrates the biggest problem with AVTAK - its tone is all over the place. One moment you're watching Zorin and goons dropping a Russian agent into a whirling propeller, a horrible death, and then goofy humor with Pola Ivanova and Gogol.

    There's a dramatic tension-filled escape from an inferno intercut with a drunk hobo watching the escape unfold, undermining the drama.

    Then it's a comic chase through the streets of San Francisco knocking off camper tops and Keystone Cops in pursuit followed by the harsh scenes of Zorin gunning down miners and giggling just a bit later.

    You've got Bond hanging on for dear life on a mooring rope and punctuated by watching his lower half get threatened by antennas and the return of the funny cops.

    It's these types of moments that have always made the Moore era sometimes harder to watch and AVTAK was maybe the most glaring example. Without Walken and the villains this film would be borderline unwatchable.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mattjoes wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond kicking the car as it slides off the cliff is Moore's best moment as 007 in my opinion. He plays the whole scene in fact really mean!

    Bond was simply venting his anger at the needless killing of the Countess

    Spot on , and I love to see that underneath all that suaveness, MooreBond , has that streak.
    Indeed. That was a great quality he had. Smooth as silk but when pushed, beware!

    I know folks mention the FYEO and OP scenes a lot, and they are of course great. However, I think Moore showed that ruthless edge far more than he is given credit for. It's pretty much there in most, if not all, of his films - notably in TMWTGG (a lot, although the dinner scene with Scaramanga is the best), TSWLM (Stromberg goes out painfully), LALD (Rosie is put under some pressure) and AVTAK (Zorin encounters it after Tibbet is killed).
    Fine observation.

    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I believe TMWTGG and FYEO were the only films where Moore vented his concern about his too violent nature.
    I thought he once said AVTAK was his least favourite of his 007 films because he thought it was too violent.

    He didn't like Zorin gunning people down in the mine.
    And yet with touches like that, Zorin becomes quite a bit more repulsive than the usual Bond villain, especially since he is often all smiles in those cruel moments. And that in turn gives the film a greater sense of tension than usual, and a certain vitality. It's one of its strengths.

    I think this illustrates the biggest problem with AVTAK - its tone is all over the place. One moment you're watching Zorin and goons dropping a Russian agent into a whirling propeller, a horrible death, and then goofy humor with Pola Ivanova and Gogol.

    There's a dramatic tension-filled escape from an inferno intercut with a drunk hobo watching the escape unfold, undermining the drama.

    Then it's a comic chase through the streets of San Francisco knocking off camper tops and Keystone Cops in pursuit followed by the harsh scenes of Zorin gunning down miners and giggling just a bit later.

    You've got Bond hanging on for dear life on a mooring rope and punctuated by watching his lower half get threatened by antennas and the return of the funny cops.

    It's these types of moments that have always made the Moore era sometimes harder to watch and AVTAK was maybe the most glaring example. Without Walken and the villains this film would be borderline unwatchable.


    True. It is a reaccuring problem in the Moore era. Tonal inconsistency is the only thing preventing FYEO from being a pure classic in my opinion. You get a sense that they felt an obligation to balance all the darker scenes with silly gags in order to not push too far away from the established lighter atmosphere of the era. And at the time it was perhaps even a valid concern. (Just think of the reaction Dalton's films got). In hindsight though it hurts the films slightly.
  • pking_3pking_3 Punting under the Bridge of Sighs
    Posts: 33
    Let's see if I can produce what I think might be some "controversial' takeaways from each film, starting with the first half of the pantheon, for hopefully interesting and civil conversation:

    DN: Her obvious charms aside, as a character Honey Ryder is rather grating, inconsequential, and belongs in the lower echelon of girls prototypical more to Mary Goodnight than the best of them, artificially propped in stature due to "first" reputation inflation rather than much deserved merit.

    FRWL: Kronsteen, for as compelling a character actor they all thought they had found in Sheybal, doesn't pop whatsoever and is a quite wasted opportunity.

    GF: For as "iconic" as its tone and setpieces have become...most of its "iconic" action scenes struggle to suffice. Not excused by the low budget hand wave, as it didn't really have to cut the corners of its two predecessors (both of which surpass GF's tension and mood and editing of action, if not quantity). GF is better as a harbinger of what is possible to come on this front rather than what is good action, per se. E.g. the DB5 chase is awkwardly shot, salvaged by the novelty of the car itself, not the execution of the chase. The Oddjob fight is stilted and best remembered for its set and pales (in tension) compared to say, Red Grant or Colonel Bouvar...

    TB: The dumb-luckiest Bond plot of perhaps them all, which makes it too silly for its own good, which most don't notice because of its slick/slow/unsilly tone. I don't like that Bond goes to the Bahamas because he sees a photo of a sister he wants to bang, not knowing who she's with. I don't like that he conveniently discovers the Lippe's crime connections because he's not investigating anything but instead playing at resort hijinks/pissing matches with Lippe. Honestly, just add a touch more plot touch up to the screenplay to connect a few more dots, please.

    YOLT: Connery is not bored/uninterested. Rather, he is playing Bond as nonchalant.

    OHMSS: Has been called underrated so many times it has become overrrated.

    DAF: Re nonchalance, see YOLT. Also, as silly/dumb-lucky plotpointing goes, this is the way to do it. Embrace it. Go down the rabbit hole and revel in the weirdness of broken Bond plotting like DAF, and the results are truly funny and funky. To be fair, the run from DAF through MR is pretty much the pinnacle of making plot stupidity work well. Before and after, not so much.

    LALD: It would have been interestingly good, not bad, to continue to build upon rather than forsake the unConneryisms such as the bourbon, the S&W, even the cappucino. But alas, they end up more as one-shot abandoned ideas/traits.

    TMWTGG: The slide whistle ruins nothing.

    TSWLM: More Bond movies would benefit from cardboard cutout/painted James "cameos", a la Roger behind the rock at the pyramids. Sort of as a "where's waldo" game for us, once per movie, spot the mannequin stand-in shot.

    MR: It's not ludicrous that Bond goes to space; its appropriate. That's where the mission leads. That's where Bond always goes, if you haven't noticed: wherever the location is that must be infiltrated/dismantled. Besides, you knew from YOLT he was so inclined to try to rocket hitchhike.

    FYEO: The theme song is one of the best.


  • NicNacNicNac Administrator, Moderator
    Posts: 7,582
    pking_3 wrote: »
    Let's see if I can produce what I think might be some "controversial' takeaways from each film, starting with the first half of the pantheon, for hopefully interesting and civil conversation:

    DN: Her obvious charms aside, as a character Honey Ryder is rather grating, inconsequential, and belongs in the lower echelon of girls prototypical more to Mary Goodnight than the best of them, artificially propped in stature due to "first" reputation inflation rather than much deserved merit.

    Disagree. Yes, she was the prototype Bond girl and (despite following two others who appeared earlier in the film) rightly considered the first true Bond girl. I guess her 'obvious charms' you refer to is her incredible bikini clad figure, but the character is clearly strong and independent when she is in her comfort zone, (on the beach), and only becomes the sweet, naïve creature after Dr No captures them. The impact she makes in a short screen time takes her out of the inconsequential zone. When one considers a character like Lupe in Licence To Kill. A beautiful girl with plenty of screen time, she makes no impact at all onscreen. Ursula Andress is a worthy blueprint for all who follow.

    YOLT: Connery is not bored/uninterested. Rather, he is playing Bond as nonchalant.
    Been saying this all my adult life. The pace of You Only Live Twice is brisker than the previous films, and Connery's laconic, easy style may not sit as well as it did. It isn't any different though, he still delivers.

    The 'Connery looks bored' angle was mentioned once in a book somewhere and everyone has jumped on that bandwagon ever since. Lazy observation.

    The best way is to ask for actual moments, scenes, anything to prove that Connery looks bored. And I will show you a moment in an earlier film where Connery is exactly the same.

    TMWTGG: The slide whistle ruins nothing.

    It doesn't as such, but it detracts from the full impact. Some blistering musical build up, followed by deathly quiet as the car spins, and the music slamming back in as the wheels land may have given the moment some real quality. Even John Barry regrets his decision.
    FYEO: The theme song is one of the best.

    One man's Barry is another man's Madonna.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The FYEO theme song is moody and appropriate. I love it.
  • Posts: 385
    pking_3 wrote: »
    Let's see if I can produce what I think might be some "controversial' takeaways from each film, starting with the first half of the pantheon, for hopefully interesting and civil conversation:

    MR: It's not ludicrous that Bond goes to space; its appropriate. That's where the mission leads. That's where Bond always goes, if you haven't noticed: wherever the location is that must be infiltrated/dismantled. Besides, you knew from YOLT he was so inclined to try to rocket hitchhike.

    Honestly, for the Moore era, the trip to space is played rather straight, and I appreciate it for that. The movie as a whole gets far too much hate.


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    MooreFun wrote: »
    pking_3 wrote: »
    Let's see if I can produce what I think might be some "controversial' takeaways from each film, starting with the first half of the pantheon, for hopefully interesting and civil conversation:

    MR: It's not ludicrous that Bond goes to space; its appropriate. That's where the mission leads. That's where Bond always goes, if you haven't noticed: wherever the location is that must be infiltrated/dismantled. Besides, you knew from YOLT he was so inclined to try to rocket hitchhike.

    Honestly, for the Moore era, the trip to space is played rather straight, and I appreciate it for that. The movie as a whole gets far too much hate.
    For a Bond film which touches on outlandish concepts such as space exploration and domination, I think they handled it very well, both tonally and in execution. It's larger than life and tongue in cheek, but still has many suspenseful moments worthy of Bond.
  • Posts: 12,462
    My favorite overall era of Bond title songs is the Moore era, which is probably pretty controversial. I think LALD and AVTAK are Top 5 ever, Nobody Does it Better, All Time High, and FYEO are all amazing softer songs, and MR is one of the best and most underrated title songs of the series. The one dud of the bunch would be TMWTGG, which is one of my least favorites in the series. But yes, overall I love the title songs of the Moore era and I’m pretty sure I’d place it first for my favorite era of Bond title songs.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited August 2018 Posts: 23,883
    FoxRox wrote: »
    My favorite overall era of Bond title songs is the Moore era, which is probably pretty controversial. I think LALD and AVTAK are Top 5 ever, Nobody Does it Better, All Time High, and FYEO are all amazing softer songs, and MR is one of the best and most underrated title songs of the series. The one dud of the bunch would be TMWTGG, which is one of my least favorites in the series. But yes, overall I love the title songs of the Moore era and I’m pretty sure I’d place it first for my favorite era of Bond title songs.
    I actually like all the Moore era songs (EDIT: not too keen on FYEO though), so I'm even more controversial. Love the Connery and Dalton ones too.

    I only started to really dislike some Bond songs during the Brozza and Craig eras. Same goes for the scores.
  • Posts: 12,462
    For me, Brosnan and Craig were both 50/50 in title songs (good: GE, TWINE, You Know My Name, SF) (not so great: TND, DAD, Another Way to Die, Writing’s on the Wall). TND’s wasn’t too bad, but definitely still lower tier.

    Connery and Dalton’s title songs were also pretty good. TLD and LTK songs are underrated.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The only theme songs I don t care for are Nobody Does It Better and Writing s On the Wall.
  • Posts: 385
    FoxRox wrote: »
    For me, Brosnan and Craig were both 50/50 in title songs (good: GE, TWINE, You Know My Name, SF) (not so great: TND, DAD, Another Way to Die, Writing’s on the Wall). TND’s wasn’t too bad, but definitely still lower tier.

    Connery and Dalton’s title songs were also pretty good. TLD and LTK songs are underrated.

    [insert complaint that Surrender should have been the TND title theme]
    The only theme songs I don t care for are Nobody Does It Better and Writing s On the Wall.

    Not liking Nobody Does It Better definitely is controversial! :D
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    The only theme songs I don t care for are Nobody Does It Better and Writing s On the Wall.
    I'm at a loss for words! It's one of my faves, along with LALD. Iconic imho.
    FoxRox wrote: »
    For me, Brosnan and Craig were both 50/50 in title songs (good: GE, TWINE, You Know My Name, SF) (not so great: TND, DAD, Another Way to Die, Writing’s on the Wall). TND’s wasn’t too bad, but definitely still lower tier.

    Connery and Dalton’s title songs were also pretty good. TLD and LTK songs are underrated.
    I liked TND (I realize I'm in a minority. There's something a bit disjointed about the tune and Sheryl's crowing is a bit much, but I still think it's better than Surrender which is a bit pastiche) but disliked TWINE.
  • Posts: 17,740
    The only theme songs I don t care for are Nobody Does It Better and Writing s On the Wall.

    I really love that song!
  • Posts: 7,507
    I am not too keen on NDIB either. And, also controversial... TSWLM´s score is the worst of the series! Together with GE, it is the only score in the series I think significantly affects my enjoynment of the film in a negative way. It is one of the main reasons I am never able to warm to the film the way I want to...
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"
  • Posts: 17,740
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"

    I sometimes do the "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!" bit when I hum the NDIB tune! :))
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"

    I sometimes do the "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!" bit when I hum the NDIB tune! :))
    It's a great motif imho. Instantly memorable.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,740
    bondjames wrote: »
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"

    I sometimes do the "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!" bit when I hum the NDIB tune! :))
    It's a great motif imho. Instantly memorable.

    It really is!
    Birdleson wrote: »

    That's a fantastic montage. So many great scenes.
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,740
    Birdleson wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"

    I sometimes do the "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!" bit when I hum the NDIB tune! :))
    It's a great motif imho. Instantly memorable.

    It really is!
    Birdleson wrote: »

    That's a fantastic montage. So many great scenes.

    I think it's the one EON produced to go along with the SPECTRE announcement.

    If I'm correct, there are no clips from LALD for some odd reason.

    I think you're right! That's very strange.
  • Posts: 7,507
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"


    You wrote one 'a lang' too much. Check the rythm again...
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 7,507
    NDIB is slow, generic and quite boring. Adding to to that it is let down by mediocre vocals. It is very overrated and not better than any of the other ballads in the series that sometimes get slammed...
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    jobo wrote: »
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"


    You wrote one 'a lang' too much. Check the rythm again...

    He’s quoting Alan Partridge.
  • Posts: 7,507
    RC7 wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"


    You wrote one 'a lang' too much. Check the rythm again...

    He’s quoting Alan Partridge.


    I know (duh). But Alan sang the correct rythm...
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 17,740
    @jobo If you'd prefer an up-tempo version, there's always the Me First and the Gimme Gimmes cover! :-D

  • Posts: 7,507
    @jobo If you'd prefer an up-tempo version, there's always the Me First and the Gimme Gimmes cover! :-D



    Oh, I have nothing against slow music as long as the arrangement is good.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    edited August 2018 Posts: 7,020
    jobo wrote: »
    How can you not like Nobody Does it Better?!!!!
    In the immortal words of Alan Partridge: "Clang, clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang....clang a lang..!"


    You wrote one 'a lang' too much. Check the rythm again...

    It's correct, actually. It's the first fifteen piano notes of the introduction of the theme.

    One note = Clang

    (pause)

    Eleven notes = clang a lang a lang a lang a lang a lang

    (pause)

    Three notes = clang a lang!

    Partridge sings it like that, and then goes on to finish the intro by clang-a-langing his way through the five remaining notes (clang a lang a lang, IIRC).

    (Geekiest comment of the year? Vote for me at geek.com/mattjoes)
  • edited August 2018 Posts: 19,339
    The worst score in the series is SP by a big margin to me.
    I know SF is basically the same,but it at least was original,and had some nice moments (Bond approaching Silva's island on the boat,Bond approaching the casino etc.)
  • Posts: 16,149
    Controversial opinion:

    All Time High is not only the greatest Bond theme song, but the greatest song in the history of recorded sound.

    Actually it was my grandmother's favorite Bond theme. To her credit, she wasn't well versed in Bond music, and probably hadn't heard too many of the other songs.

    Not quite understanding this newfound hatred of Nobody Does It Better, though. I suppose we'll next start hating on We Have All The Time in The World.
    barryt007 wrote: »
    The worst score in the series is SP by a big margin to me.
    I know SF is basically the same,but it at least was original,and had some nice moments (Bond approaching Silva's island on the boat,Bond approaching the casino etc.)

    I'll have to agree on that one, sadly. I remember exiting the theater trying to rationalize the score. I tried to convince myself it could have been worse. It least it wasn't like Newman recycled Serra's Ladies First and played it on loop.
    Nope, he produced a Bond score completely devoid of it's own identity.

    Words fail me. Damn, even the gun-barrel music is out of sync and crappy, IMO. Craig finally gets to shine in his first opening gunbarrel, and Newman has to spoil that moment for him. I can completely overlook the gun being visible as he swings his right arm. Daniel is off the hook on that one. It's all Newman and Mendes' artistic licence that ruined that moment once again. Unforgivable.
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