Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 16,154
    Controversial Moneypenny ranking:

    1. LOIS MAXWELL


    2. BARBARA BOUCHET (CR 67)
    3. PAMELA SALEM (NSNA)

    4. CAROLINE BLISS
    5. NAOMIE HARRIS
    6. SAMANTHA BOND
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited December 2018 Posts: 984
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    LTK has a far better villain, however (controversial opinion coming) : the plot is far weaker, basically a straight vengeance story like they had in almost every 80s action movie.

    I agree with you, but Bond always seems to follow current trends.

    Absolutely. I think this exemplifies why Brosnan's run ended up the way it did, Goldeneye not withstanding. The action movies of the mid to late 90's where chock full of disaster movies and action packed cheese fest's such as Face Off, Con Air and Batman Forever. This was Bond taking note of the competition.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 17,753
    Lois Maxwell is the ultimate Moneypenny, no doubt. I wish Naomie Harris could be presented more like Maxwell was. I think it would be possible even in 2018.

    Controversial Moneypenny opinion: I've always though Samantha Bond was great as Moneypenny. Her interaction with Pierce's Bond was always entertaining.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Roadphill wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    LTK has a far better villain, however (controversial opinion coming) : the plot is far weaker, basically a straight vengeance story like they had in almost every 80s action movie.

    I agree with you, but Bond always seems to follow current trends.

    Absolutely. I think this exemplifies why Brosnan's run ended up the way it did, Goldeneye not withstanding. The action movies of the mid to late 90's where chock full of disaster movies and action packed cheese fest's such as Face Off, Con Air and Batman Forever. This was Bond taking note of the competition.

    With all the flaws of the Brosnan era, I'd take them all, except for DAD, over most of the action movies of the 90s.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Lois Maxwell is the ultimate Moneypenny, no doubt. I wish Naomie Harris could be presented more like Maxwell was. I think it would be possible even in 2018.

    Controversial Moneypenny opinion: I've always though Samantha Bond was great as Moneypenny. Her interaction with Pierce's Bond was always entertaining.

    Not controversial to me. I loved Samantha Bond.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Lois Maxwell is the ultimate Moneypenny, no doubt. I wish Naomie Harris could be presented more like Maxwell was. I think it would be possible even in 2018.

    Controversial Moneypenny opinion: I've always though Samantha Bond was great as Moneypenny. Her interaction with Pierce's Bond was always entertaining.

    Considering the lists above, that isn't controversial at all. For me Sam Bond was the epitomy of a secretary, and a rather useless one at that. I never understood the appeal to her.
    I actually like Harris in the role. They overdid her introduction a bit, making her a field agent first, but after that she does take on the role pretty good. Yes, @bondjames, I do find her beautiful, but not in a, how should i put it, steamy way. Not in the way I like the Bondgirls. But MP shouldn't be like that, she should be more reserved, caring in a different way. Harris does that. For me the scenes in Macau worked because of that. It was flirting for fun, not to actually be a fantasy. Bond is too professional to bed his direct collegues (Fields doesn't count, she's stationed in some hell hole, and he was using her to stay there).
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    I was just kidding around @CommanderRoss. I agree on your point that MP should be beautiful in a different way and I agree on the caring part too. I suppose where we differ is I've always imagined MP to also be wholesome in that old fashioned homely sort of manner as well. Like Maxwell was. The kind you'd like to snuggle up to and watch a movie with. Harris isn't that way to me. She's more the type I'd go do something action oriented with, like skiing or something. That's not to say she's not worth snuggling up to mind you. It's more about the vibe she gives off on film. Put another way, she was more convincing to me running around shooting a gun at the start of SF compared to anything she's done back at MI6 HQ or at Bond's home, despite what the narrative is trying to have me believe.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 2,917
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Douglas Wilmer was great. Also in some SAINT episodes and Hammer horror films.

    And an excellent Sherlock Holmes on the BBC in the mid-60s.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    LTK has a far better villain, however (controversial opinion coming) : the plot is far weaker, basically a straight vengeance story like they had in almost every 80s action movie.

    I don't agree--there's a lot between Leiter's maiming and Bond's actual revenge, including Bond infiltrating Sanchez's organization and turning its members against each other (inspired by Kurosawa's Yojimbo), and Bond's realization that he can't wreak vengeance by himself and without consequences. What I like is that film complicates the vengeance plot (certainly more so than Fleming's Live and Let Die did).

    I also like Q's scenes--there's nothing wrong with giving an otherwise grim movie some tonal variety with a broad gags. And Dalton treats Q with more underlying respect than Moore (whose relationship with Q barely rose above mutual belittling), just as Q assumed a fatherly air toward Dalton's Bond. I love him telling Bond "without Q branch you'd have been dead years ago!"

    As for Koskov and Whittaker in TLD, they're great minor villains. But in TLD they're standing in for a non-existent major villain. Every great Bond film must have a great villain, a swirling vortex of pure evil that Bond must extinguish at great risk. Bond is a modern day St. George versus the dragon, and for the film to really work, you need a nasty-enough dragon.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Agreed. It baffles me when people criticize LTK's plot for being 'straight', generic or whatever. What would you then say of most of the other Bond plots? This one at least has some depth, twists and forces Bond (unlike most of the other films in fact) to do some proper spy work and showcase some actual intelligence. LTK has by far the most interesting plot in the series. Only FRWL and possibly CR come close.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    jobo wrote: »
    Agreed. It baffles me when people criticize LTK's plot for being 'straight', generic or whatever. What would you then say of most of the other Bond plots? This one at least has some depth, twists and forces Bond (unlike most of the other films in fact) to do some proper spy work and showcase some actual intelligence. LTK has by far the most interesting plot in the series. Only FRWL and possibly CR come close.

    Agreed. LTK does have one of the best plots of the series. The only thing that stops it being a top tier film in the series, in my opinion, is the slightly low key, made for TV look and style it has. There are times when it feels more like an extended episode of Miami Vice. A product of its time, of course. But anyone who has issues with it being generic in terms of plot are way off the mark.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    While we are on the subject of Dalton, I really believe he did what Craig does, but far better and more subtly. If you compare his Bind and Craig's there are a lot of similarities. Craig's Bond really lost it for me during Skyfall.

    In LTK, when they want to project Bonds angst and anger, they simply leave it to the actor and the plot to convey it. In Skyfall, they feel the need to club us over the head with psyche evaluations, childhood memories and moody shots of Bond staring off into the distance..
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Roadphill wrote: »
    While we are on the subject of Dalton, I really believe he did what Craig does, but far better and more subtly. If you compare his Bind and Craig's there are a lot of similarities. Craig's Bond really lost it for me during Skyfall.

    In LTK, when they want to project Bonds angst and anger, they simply leave it to the actor and the plot to convey it. In Skyfall, they feel the need to club us over the head with psyche evaluations, childhood memories and moody shots of Bond staring off into the distance..
    +1

    Your thoughts mirror exactly mine.
  • Posts: 15,114
    bondjames wrote: »
    I was just kidding around @CommanderRoss. I agree on your point that MP should be beautiful in a different way and I agree on the caring part too. I suppose where we differ is I've always imagined MP to also be wholesome in that old fashioned homely sort of manner as well. Like Maxwell was. The kind you'd like to snuggle up to and watch a movie with. Harris isn't that way to me. She's more the type I'd go do something action oriented with, like skiing or something. That's not to say she's not worth snuggling up to mind you. It's more about the vibe she gives off on film. Put another way, she was more convincing to me running around shooting a gun at the start of SF compared to anything she's done back at MI6 HQ or at Bond's home, despite what the narrative is trying to have me believe.

    Skying is not the kind of activity I'd be thinking of doing with Naomi Harris. I always found her far too sexy for Moneypenny.

    @Revelator Maybe I'm unfair but always found that LTK lacked something Bondian that other movies, even lesser ones, had. The literary equivalent is DAF.
  • QQ7QQ7 Croatia
    Posts: 371
    Partially connected to the previous posts...

    I adore Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace, but it has nothing to do with Craig. I would probably like them infinitely more with Brosnan or Dalton type actor as the lead.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Roadphill wrote: »
    While we are on the subject of Dalton, I really believe he did what Craig does, but far better and more subtly. If you compare his Bind and Craig's there are a lot of similarities. Craig's Bond really lost it for me during Skyfall.

    In LTK, when they want to project Bonds angst and anger, they simply leave it to the actor and the plot to convey it. In Skyfall, they feel the need to club us over the head with psyche evaluations, childhood memories and moody shots of Bond staring off into the distance..
    +1

    Your thoughts mirror exactly mine.
    They were apparently very impressed with Nolan's Batman series. It's quite apparent in those moments you mention. It could be Bruce Wayne just as much as Bond.

    I wonder what the influence will be this time? The most talked about and critically acclaimed film in this community (and perhaps in the general market) is MI: Fallout. I don't think it's a coincidence that there have been some changes to B25's planning since that film was released. 3 female characters including a reported agent, a past love and mystery woman? Familiar, if true.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    To be honest, the three female characters have been rumored since at least March, earlier this year.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    To be honest, the three female characters have been rumored since at least March, earlier this year.
    That's certainly true. Cashley brought that up, I believe. Still, as with MI: RN, when you sense similarities with your biggest competitor, it's perhaps best to make some changes. Hopefully any similarities won't be too noticeable this time around.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I always liked the Frederick Gray character. HMMM.

    I miss characters like him and Gogol, really.
    Damn I miss Smithers, too.

    Gray is the unheralded supporting character in the Bond pantheon.
  • Posts: 19,339
    I loved it when he got stroppy in TLD and his hair bounced around on his head.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Gray's role was basically: "React with outrage to Moore's Bond shagging everyone." Nobody did that better.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    bondjames wrote: »
    I was just kidding around @CommanderRoss. I agree on your point that MP should be beautiful in a different way and I agree on the caring part too. I suppose where we differ is I've always imagined MP to also be wholesome in that old fashioned homely sort of manner as well. Like Maxwell was. The kind you'd like to snuggle up to and watch a movie with. Harris isn't that way to me. She's more the type I'd go do something action oriented with, like skiing or something. That's not to say she's not worth snuggling up to mind you. It's more about the vibe she gives off on film. Put another way, she was more convincing to me running around shooting a gun at the start of SF compared to anything she's done back at MI6 HQ or at Bond's home, despite what the narrative is trying to have me believe.

    I think we completely agree. The thing is, I think a Maxwell moneypenny wouldn't work anymore these days as it's too much of a role model of old. And then Harris's MP is just about the best we can get.

    When we're discussing the crew, the only one I've got some issues with is our new M. In SF he worked perfectly, but in SP he seemed to have lost his edge. I was truly wondering if this was supposed to be a lieutenant colonel who'd been captured by the IRA or some bureacrat lost on too high a level. He seems lost to fight C. The dialogue is flimsy and he's Always on the backfoot. That's not how I know bureaucrats at that level, and I know quite a few.

    And while I'm at it, the 00-section is a small section directly under M, head of MI6. So that whole 'sorry guys we're stopping the program'bit makes no sense at all. It's time EON started to consult real bureaucrats.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I was just kidding around @CommanderRoss. I agree on your point that MP should be beautiful in a different way and I agree on the caring part too. I suppose where we differ is I've always imagined MP to also be wholesome in that old fashioned homely sort of manner as well. Like Maxwell was. The kind you'd like to snuggle up to and watch a movie with. Harris isn't that way to me. She's more the type I'd go do something action oriented with, like skiing or something. That's not to say she's not worth snuggling up to mind you. It's more about the vibe she gives off on film. Put another way, she was more convincing to me running around shooting a gun at the start of SF compared to anything she's done back at MI6 HQ or at Bond's home, despite what the narrative is trying to have me believe.

    I think we completely agree. The thing is, I think a Maxwell moneypenny wouldn't work anymore these days as it's too much of a role model of old. And then Harris's MP is just about the best we can get.
    I'm not sure if such a character as Maxwell MP wouldn't work necessarily. Women are as, if not more, complex than men and such women do still exist. I just think it's not fashionable to show them that way anymore, unless it's in a period piece or something along those lines. This is what makes Harris MP an oxymoron imho. They are trying to have it both ways with her. At the least they should have cast an actress who could be more credible in that demure capacity. Harris tries really hard with the hands held together in front (something Seydoux pulled in the Blofeld HQ as well) and so on, but it just doesn't cut the mustard with me - she projects as being too alert and too aware. They even had her running about in that Sony ad which came out when SP was released, which was another mistake imho.
    When we're discussing the crew, the only one I've got some issues with is our new M. In SF he worked perfectly, but in SP he seemed to have lost his edge. I was truly wondering if this was supposed to be a lieutenant colonel who'd been captured by the IRA or some bureacrat lost on too high a level. He seems lost to fight C. The dialogue is flimsy and he's Always on the backfoot. That's not how I know bureaucrats at that level, and I know quite a few.
    Agreed. He seemed out of his depth. I wasn't sure if they were trying to show him as incompetent or what. Perhaps it was a remnant of the earlier script when he was meant to be the 'bad' (preceding the creation of C)?
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,021
    Mallory did feel like that in Spectre. But in retrospective I think he was not that different in Skyfall. Somehow he comes across as slightly anxious, and not entirely like Bond's superior, but rather his near equal. Bernard Lee's M was more calm and collected, and conveyed a greater sense of authority. Robert Brown's M was more prone to outbursts tha Lee's but there was still a sense of authority. Though to be fair, these last two films perhaps justify having a more anxious M, given the direct threats to MI6, terrorist-related or bureaucratic. And Fiennes' younger age might contribute to my perception that he is not like the older Ms.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    @bondjames seems indeed the case when it comes down to Harris. Basically she's too 'good' for the role.

    @mattjoes at least in SF Mallory commanded some authority. Both in the hearing scene as afterwards. But in SP all that professionalism was gone. I don't mind his age, he could've been a career military who's indeed very talented, but seeing his behaviour..... it doesn't add up. @bondjames the whole meeting with Ç'comes over as an afterthought, so perhaps that's the reason.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    Harris lets her accent into her character too much. Also, considering her age in real life, it's safe to say this will be her last too.
  • Posts: 17,753
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Harris lets her accent into her character too much. Also, considering her age in real life, it's safe to say this will be her last too.

    Not being too familiar with all the British accents; what's wrong with Harris' accent?
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    She sounds like see has throat cancer when she shouts, which is why I'm happy she isn't in the field as much. Nothing personal against her though, as I genuinely enjoy British accents.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Something I put by mistake in another thread : I don't care what Michael Apted said, Renard is the main villain in TWINE. And even though he came short, his name is really cool.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something I put by mistake in another thread : I don't care what Michael Apted said, Renard is the main villain in TWINE. And even though he came short, his name is really cool.


    A classic case of lost potential to me. Good actor, quite interesting character background and yet it turned out like a dull soap opera for some reason... Speaks for the film in general I guess.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Something I put by mistake in another thread : I don't care what Michael Apted said, Renard is the main villain in TWINE. And even though he came short, his name is really cool.


    A classic case of lost potential to me. Good actor, quite interesting character background and yet it turned out like a dull soap opera for some reason... Speaks for the film in general I guess.

    Agree wholeheartedly.
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