Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I agree much of Craig's legacy is built on CR. I am not a huge fan of any of his others. SF is ok, massively overrated, but still watchable. QOS and SP are pretty dismal.

    I think the problem Craig's era has had, and I know many will disagree, they all just feel so similar. Bond having an emotional attachment, Bond going rogue...yawn. Those aspects can work well when used now and again, but used for four films in a row...it's too much.

    This type of thing is why the 60's and 70's Bond films(with a couple of exceptions) are still the golden years, especially when watched in the order of release. We get films that shift tonally a lot. Didn't like the low key spying of FRWL? Here's GF. Didn't like the excess of YOLT? Here's OHMSS. Didn't like Space Lasers in MR? Here's FYEO(I know that was 1981 but you get my meaning).

    I agree. One of the strangest things about the current era is that, while the films are very similar and repetitive in tone, they’re also a strange mishmash. In CR we got an origin story, ending with Bond delivering the iconic line and the theme blaring, signaling that he is now Bond. Then in QOS we got another origin story, or origin story part 2, after it seemed as though the origin angle had already been wrapped up in CR. Immediately following this, we had SF showing Bond as old and washed up, trying to stay relevant. And SP was just a half-hearted attempt at doing the classic Bond formula while still shoehorning in the Craig era tropes of emotional involvement, personal connection, melodrama, and a lame, unconvincing love story. If the other three Craig films had the quality of CR and followed a logical path of character development thereafter, this era would have been far more engaging for me.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,247
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'm glad I'm not the only one finding the Tom Cruise promotional vehicle with Ethan Sue insufferable.
    I wouldn't go so far as to consider the M:I movies insufferable...but at least completely forgettable. I haven't seen the latest one, and do not expect that to change until I can get it on Blu-ray for well under 10 euros. But I've seen all the others (I even own them on BD, more for completism than actual affection) and, quite frankly, do not recall anything specific about them except that they had that big-nosed dwarf as the main character. Oh yes, and that Jim Phelps was the bad guy and they had that ridiculous Eurotunnel helicopter chase and a lot of scenes in Prague in the first entry, but that is the only one I so far cared to watch for a second time. Not saying M:I is not entertaining altogether, but give me all and any Bond film (except maybe TWINE and DAD) over the entire bunch anytime.

    Tbh I never know what happened in which M:I film. That's the problem. I remember some of the stunts, and I understand Tom does most of them himself, but then they add so much CGI you never know if it was really dangerous or just a lot of spectacle. With Bond it's usually different. The one that went utterly wrong was DAD. But the crane jumping in CR i.e. is still breathtaking.

  • Posts: 15,106
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'm glad I'm not the only one finding the Tom Cruise promotional vehicle with Ethan Sue insufferable.
    I wouldn't go so far as to consider the M:I movies insufferable...but at least completely forgettable. I haven't seen the latest one, and do not expect that to change until I can get it on Blu-ray for well under 10 euros. But I've seen all the others (I even own them on BD, more for completism than actual affection) and, quite frankly, do not recall anything specific about them except that they had that big-nosed dwarf as the main character. Oh yes, and that Jim Phelps was the bad guy and they had that ridiculous Eurotunnel helicopter chase and a lot of scenes in Prague in the first entry, but that is the only one I so far cared to watch for a second time. Not saying M:I is not entertaining altogether, but give me all and any Bond film (except maybe TWINE and DAD) over the entire bunch anytime.

    I did like the first MI movie. But then it turned into a big Tom Cruise celebration.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Tried to watch the first one on a plane, couldn't get into it. Saw the second in a theatre with a friend; with about ten minutes remaining we simultaneously looked at each other and said that we wanted to leave, and we did. I tried watching the third or fourth (I really don't know which) one on television and had to bail quickly due to the typically irritating snarky, canned dialogue and cliched characters that are so prevalent in modern cinema. I had heard the previous to the last one was supposed to be an improvement, so I rented it on OnDemand; complete repeat of the one that I attempted to watch prior. Made it all of seven minutes until those characters and their delivery had me gagging.

    The hard clichés of the 1960s Bond films frequently had dialogue that was literally canned. Wasn't nearly every woman voiced by the same actress? And Quarrel and Felix are not any less cliché than Luther or Benji. It's escapist cinema, and you're missing out on the best of it!
  • Posts: 1,916
    bondjames wrote: »
    PS: Tom Cruise and Co. (discussed earlier here) know precisely how to deliver formula in interesting ways, and that's why quite a few Bond fans (obviously not all) appreciate what they've been able to achieve over there with the last few films. That doesn't mean we're lesser Bond fans - just that we're different kind of Bond fans - the type that enjoy formula delivered well, with precision and with a focus on the right aspects. Other Bond fans appreciate other elements of Bond films, and that's fine. Ultimately either works for me, as long as it's done well.
    Well said. It's great to have 2 action spy franchises I love and feel fortunate to have. People don't have to like the MI films, but at least acknowledge they do work and recognize they aren't going anywhere. Cubby Broccoli once said he liked seeing other action films and series succeed and that had a positive effect on Bond.

    Personally, I've never been a fan of the Bourne movies. I find them diverting enough and well-made, but they just aren't anywhere near Bond as a franchise for me and I have no desire to watch those more than once. They just don't work for me and I don't think I need to put down Bourne to feel better about Bond.
  • Generally speaking, the meeker, damsel type Bond girls are more appealing.
    That depends. I prefer femme fatales a lot myself, as I find damsels boring. They're akin to fairy tale princess trapped in some tower, guarded by some dragon, only for the prince charming to come and save them. That's boring for me.

    But, a damsel that doesn't acknowledge being one and acts like a big shot like Madeleine Swann, that is the worst kind. That's why she's my least favourite Bond girl.

    That said, while I love the idea of a femme fatale Bond girl, we really haven't had a very decent one.
    I mostly agree with you Devlin. Damsels like Goodnight, Stacey, I don't care for.

    I think Natalya Simonova was a good middle point for me. She was neither a badass nor a helpless woman. In fact she was getting things done by herself until she got betrayed by Boris.

    TSWLM, as much as I love it, tries to make Anya a badass and equal to Bond, but she was helpless against Jaws and has to be saved like a princess at the end.

    Maybe the MI6 agent in this movie will be a femme fatale. I certainly would prefer that to a clumsy amateur who needs to be under Bond's wing. But we'll see.

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Natalya, one the best Bond girls.
  • Posts: 250
    A few maybe controversial opinions:

    NSNA is more fun than Thunderball, and Brandauer is a top 5 villain.
    Barbara Broccoli has been kinda brilliant, and has navigated a world steeped in blockbuster franchises expertly. She has also managed to bring Bond back to something essential after the wayward post-GE Brozzer entries.
    The vast bulk of Bond scores are great and we've been spoiled.
    Robert Elswit's work on TND is rivalled only by Freddie Young and Michael Reed for pre-QoS Bond film lensing
    After the obvious GOAT (Tracy) Pam Bouvier is the best Bond girl and the only truly successful "badass" one. The prom night ending is criminal however.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Natalya, one the best Bond girls.

    Agreed - I have been saying this for a long time.

    Natalya effects the plot and can do things other characters can't. She is principled, resourceful and brave. She isn't an agent like Wai Lin, Camille or Triple X - yet she adjusts to the increasingly wild situtaions in a believable way.
  • Posts: 250
    I can't remember a Bond girl that gets more setup than her. With Bond being entirely immobile for what is roughly 10 minutes of plot at Servenaya? She becomes our protagonist effectively and gets her own subplot until the interrogation.
  • Re: the lack of “traditional” bond template in the Craig era, I thought QoS was quite old school in its vibe.
  • Major_BoothroydMajor_Boothroyd Republic of Isthmus
    Posts: 2,722
    FourDot wrote: »
    I can't remember a Bond girl that gets more setup than her. With Bond being entirely immobile for what is roughly 10 minutes of plot at Servenaya? She becomes our protagonist effectively and gets her own subplot until the interrogation.

    Yes, I've always enjoyed that. It's a real point of difference for the series. Even compared with Tatiana in FRWL, Triple X in TSWLM and Melina in FYEO - Natalya gets a huge intro.

  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Controversial opinion (?): We Share the Same Passions is the best romantic music we've had in a Bond film since 1989. It hasn't been surpassed, though Arnold got very close in TWINE and CR.
  • mattjoes wrote: »
    Controversial opinion (?): We Share the Same Passions is the best romantic music we've had in a Bond film since 1989. It hasn't been surpassed, though Arnold got very close in TWINE and CR.
    Is it true it was actually composed by John Altman and not Eric Serra?
    FourDot wrote: »
    I can't remember a Bond girl that gets more setup than her. With Bond being entirely immobile for what is roughly 10 minutes of plot at Servenaya? She becomes our protagonist effectively and gets her own subplot until the interrogation.
    Agreed. And I like that you feel invested in her journey because you see her coworkers get murdered, she gets left for dead, and gets betrayed by the only person she trusts. Campbell did Bond girls right.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Give me MI over Bourne films any day.

    The Bourne films just repeat themselves and bore the arse off me.
    At least MI is a fun,popcorn ride.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,608
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Give me MI over Bourne films any day.

    The Bourne films just repeat themselves and bore the arse off me.
    At least MI is a fun,popcorn ride.

    Agreed. Matt Damon said some rude and biased comments about Bond as well. Stupid political activist, telling people how to vote.
  • edited February 2019 Posts: 7,507
    The problem with MI is that it doesn't have an engaging or interesting main character. I know the big thing with Tom Cruise is that he does impressive stunt work. That sure is impressive and quite cool I guess. But I am not looking for a stuntman, I want a character that is fascinating and colorful. In that department Ethan Hunt is as boring and run of the mill as they come! Apart from being a brave hero, is there anything about his character that is noteworthy??
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    jobo wrote: »
    The problem with MI is that it doesn't have an engaging or interesting main character. I know the big thing with Tom Cruise is that he does impressive stunt work. That sure is impressive and quite cool I guess. But I am not looking for a stuntman, I want a character that is fascinating and colorful. In that department Ethan Hunt is as boring and run of the mill as they come! Apart from being a brave hero, is there anything about his character that is noteworthy??

    I think the issue is, Hunt, and the films that surround him, are live action cartoons. That's why some of us fail to remember one from the other. It's a Loony Tunes adventure, and little beyond that.

    I have always gone to see the M:I films and apart from the third (which I quite liked and thought it was the best of the bunch by a long stretch), they all blend into each other-- especially the last three. I always go hoping there's just a little more depth to them.

    For that, I always leave disappointed.

    Otherwise, the cartoon plays. I get mildly entertained (more so in the last one, although the only things I remember are the helicopter chase and the halo jump and the bathroom fight-- more than I usually do).

    Also, the leading man does very little for me. He's always been too much cheese and chewing gum. He's like a Peter Pan hiding behind the facade of action scenes that beg someone like me to take him seriously as a man of action.

    But I never see a man. I just see a little boy.

  • Posts: 7,507
    peter wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    The problem with MI is that it doesn't have an engaging or interesting main character. I know the big thing with Tom Cruise is that he does impressive stunt work. That sure is impressive and quite cool I guess. But I am not looking for a stuntman, I want a character that is fascinating and colorful. In that department Ethan Hunt is as boring and run of the mill as they come! Apart from being a brave hero, is there anything about his character that is noteworthy??

    I think the issue is, Hunt, and the films that surround him, are live action cartoons. That's why some of us fail to remember one from the other. It's a Loony Tunes adventure, and little beyond that.

    I have always gone to see the M:I films and apart from the third (which I quite liked and thought it was the best of the bunch by a long stretch), they all blend into each other-- especially the last three. I always go hoping there's just a little more depth to them.

    For that, I always leave disappointed.

    Otherwise, the cartoon plays. I get mildly entertained (more so in the last one, although the only things I remember are the helicopter chase and the halo jump and the bathroom fight-- more than I usually do).

    Also, the leading man does very little for me. He's always been too much cheese and chewing gum. He's like a Peter Pan hiding behind the facade of action scenes that beg someone like me to take him seriously as a man of action.

    But I never see a man. I just see a little boy.


    I agree about the cartoonish element. But even cartoons usually have heroes or main characters with some unique or quirky traits that make them stand out. Hunt is very unnoteworthy even for a popcorn flick. He is a brave and resourceful agent... stop. I struggle to give any description of his character at all beyond that.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I get what you're saying @jobo -- I like Bugs Bunny a helluva lot more than I like Hunt. And, once again, it goes back to the man playing him. Outside of these M:I films, when did Cruise have a hit? I mean a bonafide hit? People like to slam Craig, but Craig doesn't chase Box Office or movie stardom (I think, outside of Bond, he gave that up after CB&A); but Tom Cruise does chase stardom and Box Office. And outside of M:I, not a lot has been going on in the past decade.

    And he doesn't come across as being particularly bright either, in my opinion. Not a lot of intelligence goes into his performance of Hunt. So, might as well keep him moving like the Energizer Bunny. And he's game for that, I suppose, but it's boring after a while.

    Saying that, this conversation has somehow hijacked the thread's purpose. My apologies.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Bond has ,obviously,a much much better depth and personality than the other two.

    But surely Bourne is more dull than Hunt...definitely for me,the guy is a plank.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Feels like opposite ends of the spectrum, although I like Damon as an actor and I like his characterization of Bourne (done with intelligence that TC lacks); I'm just not a fan of the films and can barely get through one of them nowadays (they seem to have dated terribly, and I didn't bother seeing the last one).
  • Posts: 19,339
    peter wrote: »
    Feels like opposite ends of the spectrum, although I like Damon as an actor and I like his characterization of Bourne (done with intelligence that TC lacks); I'm just not a fan of the films and can barely get through one of them nowadays (they seem to have dated terribly, and I didn't bother seeing the last one).

    You didn't miss much,believe me...just the same as normal.
    These films need to be put out to pasture.

  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,608
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond has ,obviously,a much much better depth and personality than the other two.

    But surely Bourne is more dull than Hunt...definitely for me,the guy is a plank.

    True that. Matt Damon says he wants no humor with Bourne. 100 serious. Even James Bond in his darkest moments is more playful.
  • Posts: 19,339
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Bond has ,obviously,a much much better depth and personality than the other two.

    But surely Bourne is more dull than Hunt...definitely for me,the guy is a plank.

    True that. Matt Damon says he wants no humor with Bourne. 100 serious. Even James Bond in his darkest moments is more playful.

    Exactly,and at least Hunt comes out with some good one-liners and occasional comic relief moments.
  • goldenswissroyalegoldenswissroyale Switzerland
    Posts: 4,474
    Here is another controversial opinion:

    I would never say that Madonnas song DAD is a good one for its own, BUT...

    I like it much more than I should,(but only when it is combined with the title sequence). It fits better than several other bond songs (with the title sequence) and the atmosphere of the title sequence works for me. The beat in the beginning, then the scorpions...good stuff...

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I consider myself lucky that I truly enjoy the Bourne films (which were highly influential on the genre, and rightly so), the MI films (the impact of the recent films on the genre is about to be felt - and will become obvious in the next decade in my opinion), the FF films (more kiddie fare, but highly entertaining and audacious) all the spoof style entries (including Kingsman, which hopefully injects a bit of necessary sartorial elegance back into OO7's attire) and of course the James Bond films.

    I can't tell you how happy I am to learn of the two back to back MI entries for 2021 and 2022. It makes me less concerned about EON and MGM's machinations post-B25 (and I'm certain there will be some). Keeps me satiated while Bond cleans house and comes back energized, probably in 2023 or 2024.

    There was a time when Bond seemed supreme to me. I couldn't see anything being even close to it during my childhood. That is no longer the case for me. While its history and the strength of its phenomenal back catalogue (and the brilliance of the actors of the past) will always keep it my favourite entry in this genre, I now truly see it as one of many. They all occupy their own spaces on the chessboard and bring something to the table. If it's not MI or Bourne tomorrow (which may not survive Cruise or Damon respectively), then it will be something else which provides comparable entertainment (including, perhaps, the new all female spy entry expected soon with Chastain, Cottilard and Co.). The field is far more balanced for me these days, and that's a great thing.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited February 2019 Posts: 1,711
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I completely disagree. I find most of the dialogue from the ‘60s entries to be quite sharp (despite the unfortunate dubbing). I throughly enjoyed Quarrel. Most of Felixes were pretty drab, though.

    Oh Quarrel is great, as is Jack Lord's Felix or Fiona Volpe. But they're all totally stock characters. I just don't think we Bond fans should play the cliché card or complain about lack of depth in other franchise characters!

    I like early Bond dialogue well enough too, but the highlights are generally one-liners or a few nice exchanges that while good, sound rather written.

    But if you're not into action, I can see not loving M:I. I agree with you that Bond is more adventure than action anyway. Love both franchises to death, but I'm getting fatigued with the constant comparisons. They're fundamentally so different....
  • Posts: 250
    Bourne, Bond and Hunt all occupy completely different corners of the market in terms of sub-genre. You might as well throw George Smiley into the mix, such is the difference in tone, style, and function of the different properties.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    FourDot wrote: »
    Bourne, Bond and Hunt all occupy completely different corners of the market in terms of sub-genre. You might as well throw George Smiley into the mix, such is the difference in tone, style, and function of the different properties.
    Agreed. There is some overlap and they have each delved into the others corner from time to time, but the market is big enough to accommodate all comers. It's really a question of excelling in the particular space that one occupies.
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