Controversial opinions about Bond films

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Comments

  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Are we really debating this?
  • Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,557
    Remington wrote: »
    Are we really debating this?
    Rather controversial, isn't it! ;)
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    QBranch wrote: »
    Remington wrote: »
    Are we really debating this?
    Rather controversial, isn't it! ;)

    Well it should be in the question thread but like an old teacher of literature told me years ago, everything is significant in fiction (thus can be debated and often will be). I'm very aware it's a pointless debate.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    Obviously Vesper was an agent of the Vatican sent to kill Bond.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Obviously Vesper was an agent of the Vatican sent to kill Bond.

    Wrong gender.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,557
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well it should be in the question thread but like an old teacher of literature told me years ago, everything is significant in fiction (thus can be debated and often will be). I'm very aware it's a pointless debate.
    I agree, I don't see it causing any harm. Gives us something to do while we wait for B25 news.
  • edited March 2019 Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Well it should be in the question thread but like an old teacher of literature told me years ago, everything is significant in fiction (thus can be debated and often will be). I'm very aware it's a pointless debate.
    I agree, I don't see it causing any harm. Gives us something to do while we wait for B25 news.

    That said it should be in the question thread. It proved to be controversial, but it's not exactly an opinion.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,557
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier.
    It was the only page regarding the cover, folded in half, in an A5 envelope.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
    And there's no evidence that she isn't.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
    And there's no evidence that she isn't.

    Did I ever say there was? You don't prove a negative and the burden of proof resides on the side making the positive claim.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
    And there's no evidence that she isn't.

    Did I ever say there was? You don't prove a negative and the burden of proof resides on the side making the positive claim.
    Honestly, there's nothing for me to prove when it's in the wide open. She didn't need to overcomplicate things by making stuff up like her background including Catholicism whatosever. She could've brought other and simpler excuses to dismiss Bond, but she was quick to bring up her Catholic background. There's nothing else to see there really. No hidden messages between the gaps.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
    And there's no evidence that she isn't.

    Did I ever say there was? You don't prove a negative and the burden of proof resides on the side making the positive claim.
    Honestly, there's nothing for me to prove when it's in the wide open. She didn't need to overcomplicate things by making stuff up like her background including Catholicism whatosever. She could've brought other and simpler excuses to dismiss Bond, but she was quick to bring up her Catholic background. There's nothing else to see there really. No hidden messages between the gaps.

    You are assuming she has a Catholic background to bring up in the first place. I agree there's no hidden message to see there. Hence there's no evidence or reason to believe she is, or was a Catholic. Anyone with a vague knowledge of Catholicism or practicing Catholics could come up with that line.
  • Opinion:

    QoS is better than SF and is much more original of a film.

  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    edited March 2019 Posts: 15,423
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    QBranch wrote: »
    Document details:


    Agent 007

    You will find two passports enclosed in your and Miss Lynd’s new identities.

    You are to assume the identity of Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Lynd is to assume the identity
    of Miss Stephanie Broadchest. Mr Arlington Beech and Miss Stephanie Broadchest are
    currently dating.

    Mr Arlington Beech is a wealthy partner of the company Universal Exports and is an independ-
    ent gambler. He has been gambling in high stake games for the past five years.

    Miss Stephanie Broadchest is the wealthy daughter of the Investment Banker Mr Henry
    Broadchest.

    Under no circumstances should you reveal your true identity.


    M

    Don't know where you hit that from but: 1)full content is not explicitly made available to the audience in the movie and 2)Vesper mentioning a Catholic family is referring to her cover, not herself (since she herself is an orphan).
    I have an accurate replica of the document, it's no problem to share the details. You're welcome.

    I'm simply clarifying that religion was not part of the official cover, as given by M.
    Thanks for confirming that, Q.

    It's a wonder what was plain obvious a mere decade ago is simply questioned by the minds of today.

    How was it plain obvious?

    Beside there's still no mention of Vesperherself being Catholic. Or her deceased parents.
    Occam's razor. Plain obvious to get to that.

    Except her parents are dead. Even if they were strict Catholics they'd be dead one so no reason to appease them. Otherwise and for the record I accept @QBranch very convincing evidence that this part was not on the official cover.
    You're reading too much into it. Her parents didn't directly die the moment she was born. She didn't appease anybody but merely used that argument as a dismissal towards Bond when she thought he was or would be coming on to her. You can't get more obvious than that.

    Maybe I'm not clear but I thought I did say that I accept Vesper made it on the spot due to the evidence given. I also do agree that it's away to dismiss Bond.

    In any case how is it reading too much into it saying they're talking about their cover, NOT Vesper's own background?
    Vesper at that time wasn't handed over the document regarding her cover to read and know all about it. Bond was reading that file and she had no awareness of it other than having the expectation he was going to act reprobate. Notice how she got angry when he read her cover name with amusement? She was definitely talking about her own background rather than the cover.

    She was definitely not aware of her alias at that point. Nothing indicates that she was definitely or even possibly talking of her own background.
    So, she was making stuff up for her cover rather than sticking to the identity she was given with the document? That's risking her own cover to be blown if she decided to stick to her own story rather than the one given to her with organized research.

    Nothing she says contradicts her rather simple and undetailed cover. Beside still nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.
    We don't know if that cover was simple and undetailed. Bond only lifted one page from the dossier. She definitely wasn't playing pretend when she had been bickering with Bond about that Catholic angle. It's as good as saying her comment about not having enough room for Bond's ego and herself directed towards Mr. Beech rather than Bond.

    So she improvised that line on the spot but took it from her dark and troubled Catholic past? I don't buy it. She uses the line to rebuff Bond. Whether or not her family was Catholic is beside the point and pretty much irrelevant. In any case there's no evidence to conclude that Vesper is a Catholic, practicing, lapsed or other.
    And there's no evidence that she isn't.

    Did I ever say there was? You don't prove a negative and the burden of proof resides on the side making the positive claim.
    Honestly, there's nothing for me to prove when it's in the wide open. She didn't need to overcomplicate things by making stuff up like her background including Catholicism whatosever. She could've brought other and simpler excuses to dismiss Bond, but she was quick to bring up her Catholic background. There's nothing else to see there really. No hidden messages between the gaps.

    You are assuming she has a Catholic background to bring up in the first place. I agree there's no hidden message to see there. Hence there's no evidence or reason to believe she is, or was a Catholic. Anyone with a vague knowledge of Catholicism or practicing Catholics could come up with that line.
    My assumption is that her parents were Catholic when she states that by herself and she was raised as such. But, the way she talks about it, it appears she is a lapsed one. She didn't have any reason to come up with a chunk of story like that to use it against Bond. She could've come up with a simpler way to dismiss him. Not many people (very few, in fact) use the Catholic argument as a fake excuse to dismiss someone interested in them. Not for the last 30 years.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    Ludovico wrote: »
    nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.

    I agree with this. I suppose it's possible that she did, but there's no reason to think so. Since Bond mentions some specific fictional details about his cover, like his profession ("professional gambler"), Vesper choose to improvise a specific, but fictional comment about her religious background. Nothing complicated about that. And note how the sarcastic tone of her voice is exactly the same as Bond's when reading the document. She's talking to him in the same terms he's talking to her.

    As Clark points out, it would make sense to think the official cover was more elaborate than the single page read by Bond. In real life, covers must be much more elaborate than that. But the film seems to show Bond taking all the contents out of the envelope and throwing it, which implies in this film, the cover is just a single page. This matches what QBranch tells us. Suspension of disbelief, I guess.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Opinion:

    QoS is better than SF and is much more original of a film.

    I'm not sure I agree but I do prefer it sometimes , depending of my mood. I would also say QOS has the better plot. While I love SF Silva's plan is very contrived.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,557
    Opinion:

    QoS is better than SF and is much more original of a film.
    I rate it over SF by a bit. Apart from the editing issues, QOS is a very cleverly made film. It seems that every shot is strategically executed, e.g. the camera on the Aston's bonnet when he comes to a stop in the Sienna building in the PTS, the various Dominic Greene profiles flashing over the windscreen, showing two points of view in one shot. There are so many little things I notice with each viewing. I think the cinematography is excellent. Yes, SF's was too, but there's more to cinematography than just wide shots! Check out the little dog standing on the roof in Haiti. The film excels in showing us the surrounding life in each location. QOS may be more original than SF in other areas, but certainly in being the first Bond film to have the gun barrel at the end, which SF continued. Not sure which villain I prefer though. They are both great - Silva is a modern classic in the vein of GF, DN etc., while Greene is a refreshingly realistic and slimy little weasel.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,108
    I would even go as far as putting QOS above every other of the Craig entries. I consider it also to be his best Bond performance.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I would even go as far as putting QOS above every other of the Craig entries. I consider it also to be his best Bond performance.
    +1

    SF is at the very bottom on my list. And QoS is very enjoyable despite being bettered by a lot of entries in the series.
  • Posts: 787
    dead-horse.jpg
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,557
    octofinger wrote: »
    original-1-900x770.jpg
    octofinger wrote: »
    dead-horse.jpg
    THeAxGm.gif?noredirect
  • Posts: 15,106
    mattjoes wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    nothing indicates that she used her own background to come up with that strict Catholic line.

    I agree with this. I suppose it's possible that she did, but there's no reason to think so. Since Bond mentions some specific fictional details about his cover, like his profession ("professional gambler"), Vesper choose to improvise a specific, but fictional comment about her religious background. Nothing complicated about that. And note how the sarcastic tone of her voice is exactly the same as Bond's when reading the document. She's talking to him in the same terms he's talking to her.

    As Clark points out, it would make sense to think the official cover was more elaborate than the single page read by Bond. In real life, covers must be much more elaborate than that. But the film seems to show Bond taking all the contents out of the envelope and throwing it, which implies in this film, the cover is just a single page. This matches what QBranch tells us. Suspension of disbelief, I guess.

    I'd say maybe, maybe, maybe Vesper's name could indicate a Catholic background. Although I know there's a specific reason for it mentioned in the novel, vesper does have a Catholic ring to it. But that would be building a lot from a single name.

    From what I read, fake identities in the secret service go from mere fake Ids to completely fabricated lives, depending of the mission. In real life, I would think they'd be briefed in the office and more thoroughly. And they'd probably give hell to Bond for blowing it so casually. Although there's a very good meta reason for this : audiences may not be happy with a Bond movie where Bond assumes an alias for half the film.
  • mattjoesmattjoes Julie T. and the M.G.'s
    Posts: 7,020
    octofinger wrote: »
    dead-horse.jpg

    Mind if my horse sits this one out? It's just dead.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    QBranch wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    original-1-900x770.jpg
    octofinger wrote: »
    dead-horse.jpg
    THeAxGm.gif?noredirect

    tumblr_mjs1bcEyRH1qhmqb7o1_500.gif
  • Posts: 385
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I rank QOS above SF, though I like them both.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I would even go as far as putting QOS above every other of the Craig entries. I consider it also to be his best Bond performance.

    I usually go:

    Spectre
    Quantum of Solace
    Casino Royale
    Skyfall

    Spectre isn't without issues (some major), same with Quantum, but...I feel like giving them credit for trying.
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